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-   -   Lacroix's in/out trade log (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=55966)

DRL 02-26-2004 03:21 PM

Lacroix's in/out trade log
 
since the wild beat the avs in the playoffs, lacroix has gone about and redesigned the makeup of the avs:

in:

skrastins
nikolishin
worrell
konowalchuk
sauer
boughner
hendrickson
bonvie
colorado 5th in 03(part of marchment deal-returned in parker deal)
florida 2nd in 04
minny 8th in 04
anaheim 4th in 05

out:

parker
messier
nedorost
battaglia
johansson
skoula
stephens
prospect playing in germany(boughner deal)
future considerations(skrastins deal)
colorado 4th in 04
colorado 4th in 05

not included is was. 3rd in 04 which was acquired in kono trade and used in boughner trade.

i'd say lacroix has done an excellent job filling holes and at the same time riding players who had no future with the avs.

people who say he is over-rated or not a top 3 gm need look no farther than this list, i'd like to see someone point out who has done a better job than lacroix in trades since july.

Big Game 02-26-2004 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRL
i'd like to see someone point out who has done a better job than lacroix in trades since july.


Milbury! Because he hasn't made any! :rolly:

MoS* 02-26-2004 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRL
since the wild beat the avs in the playoffs, lacroix has gone about and redesigned the makeup of the avs:

in:

skrastins
nikolishin
worrell
konowalchuk
sauer
boughner
hendrickson
bonvie
colorado 5th in 03(part of marchment deal-returned in parker deal)
florida 2nd in 04
minny 8th in 04
anaheim 4th in 05

out:

parker
messier
nedorost
battaglia
johansson
skoula
stephens
prospect playing in germany(boughner deal)
future considerations(skrastins deal)
colorado 4th in 04
colorado 4th in 05

not included is was. 3rd in 04 which was acquired in kono trade and used in boughner trade.

i'd say lacroix has done an excellent job filling holes and at the same time riding players who had no future with the avs.

people who say he is over-rated or not a top 3 gm need look no farther than this list, i'd like to see someone point out who has done a better job than lacroix in trades since july.

but you've guys've traded huge chunk of your future in nedorst, johansson, parker (former 1st rounder), stephens, vrbabta (who was traded for battaglia) and 3 draft picks. also, the future considerations for skrastins will likely be a 2nd-3rd rounder if he keeps up the way he is playing right now. i don't think he has done particularly well but he did address his team's needs. PL's invested his team's future in the next 2-3 years. i hope the avs don't dissapoint him

GKJ 02-26-2004 03:30 PM

Top 4 GM's in the league:

1) Lou Lamorillo (sp)
2) Ken Holland
3) Pierre LaCroix
4) Bob Gainey

Why? The only GM's to win Cups in the past 9 years

DarioinDenver 02-26-2004 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoS
but you've guys've traded huge chunk of your future in nedorst, johansson, parker (former 1st rounder), stephens, vrbabta (who was traded for battaglia) and 3 draft picks. also, the future considerations for skrastins will likely be a 2nd-3rd rounder if he keeps up the way he is playing right now. i don't think he has done particularly well but he did address his team's needs. PL's invested his team's future in the next 2-3 years. i hope the avs don't dissapoint him

No offense but have you followed the progress of Nederost, Parker, and Vrbata. Stephens is a debateable asset, and Johansson is not setting the world on fire by a long shot in the WHL right now. Skrastins was delt for a 3rd round pick. That's a steal because contrary to your opinion I believe Skrastins has done a phenominal job.

cfrancis 02-26-2004 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Top 4 GM's in the league:

1) Lou Lamorillo (sp)
2) Ken Holland
3) Pierre LaCroix
4) Bob Gainey

Why? The only GM's to win Cups in the past 9 years


Why? They are the one's with the money. I think there are a lot of better GM's out there that do great stuff with what they have. And are not able to go out at deadline time and buy players. I personally don't think LaCroix is a good GM, he's got cash, and a load of prospects from the Nordiques days. Anybody can turn that into superstars.

Kukla 02-26-2004 03:50 PM

This thread should be moved to NHL talk. Has nothing to do with upcoming trades or FA talk. IF people posted every trade every gm made in the last year here, it would be a free for all.

avfan#21 02-26-2004 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
No offense but have you followed the progress of Nederost, Parker, and Vrbata. Stephens is a debateable asset, and Johansson is not setting the world on fire by a long shot in the WHL right now. Skrastins was delt for a 3rd round pick. That's a steal because contrary to your opinion I believe Skrastins has done a phenominal job.


Thanks for posting what I was thinking, considering what those guys have done, I'd say it was arguable whether the Avs would have been any better in the future with them. If they were the future we're better off trading them for the now because I think the Avs can do better.

NCAAexpert 02-26-2004 04:30 PM

More additions to the list:

Out -- Steve Reinprecht, Jeff Shantz, Mike Keane

In -- Keith Ballard, Travis Brigley

The point is this: The supposed "future" the Avs have mortaged through all these trades.....would someone please tell me exactly which top prospects the Avs have given up? Let's face it, Vrbata has done nothing in two years. Nedorost is injury-prone and well on his way to being a bust. Stephens was a non-factor. Johansson, who knows what kind of career he could have, but the Avs scouts were disappointed in his progress when they traded him.

It's funny how people talk about how bad the Avs' farm system is. Yet guys like Liles, McCormick and Svatos made the team right out of training camp.

Belgican 02-26-2004 04:59 PM

Agreed, PL made his prospects look better than they are, but I won't buy the Liles, MacCormick, Svatos argument either, Avs prospects system looks very empty right now.

monster_bertuzzi 02-26-2004 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Top 4 GM's in the league:

1) Lou Lamorillo (sp)
2) Ken Holland
3) Pierre LaCroix
4) Bob Gainey

Why? The only GM's to win Cups in the past 9 years

$$$

Reign Nateo 02-26-2004 05:28 PM

I think it's best to wait about 5 years before making any judgements on these moves.

Any one of Nedorost, Johansson, Vrbata or Skoula could make Lacroix look really bad. Not fair to judge right now.

rpontbriand 02-26-2004 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfrancis
Why? They are the one's with the money. I think there are a lot of better GM's out there that do great stuff with what they have. And are not able to go out at deadline time and buy players. I personally don't think LaCroix is a good GM, he's got cash, and a load of prospects from the Nordiques days. Anybody can turn that into superstars.

Yea cash solves everything! Ask Sather.

MoS* 02-26-2004 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
$$$

i agree.
fullheartedly agree that those gm's careers are tainted and the only reason why they've all won cups is because they had MONEY to fund enormous payrolls
;)

barrytrotzsneck 02-26-2004 06:04 PM

the predators received a third round pick for skrastins.

kenny #9 02-26-2004 06:29 PM

you forgot Kariya and Selanne

and as previously posted the Reinprecht deal

Gibsons Finest 02-26-2004 06:33 PM

His In/Out list isn't as impressive as you make it seem. You also forgot Reinpreicht, Shantz, Keane, and though he couldn't do much about it, Roy. The trade for Skrastins was a decent one, as was the Nikolishin trade. There was an overpayment for Worrell, and the Kono deal has looked like a steal, but he's a UFA at season's end, and Vrbata and Jonas were traded for him, so either can make it a loss. Even if he's marginal it can mean a Lacroix loss. Boughner was a good pickup, but is also UFA at seasons end. PL likely still will win though. Brigley was a decent pickup, and Ballard adds to your future. Hendrickson was a bad pickup, and the Bonvie deal wasn't exactly a great one. The Sauer deal looked great, but Skoula's nearly done more than Sauer did all year offensively, and has been grittier than him. The picks help too, but they're lower picks. He's also had a great owner, so that helps.

IMO, Lacroix is not a top three GM. Vrbata, Johansson, and Nedorost were three bigger parts of their future, and unless he drafts a winner, that can hurt the Avs if the new CBA has spending restraints. He's facing Kariya and Selanne leaving, which is almost a certainty, and could very well see Foppa leave this summer. His decision to go with Abei in the playoffs may also hurt him, as his season is similar to Turco's of last year, and Turco was not a goalie who was going to win his team a cup. Though, while I don't think he's not top 3, I would consider him a top 5 guy.

barrytrotzsneck 02-26-2004 06:36 PM

Exactly. The Rangers once made a lot of moves like this, for the sake of "winning now," and dealt away players like Todd Marchant, Tony Amonte and Doug Weight. It helped at the time, but they're still paying the price. You've got some solid guys now, but they won't be there forever.

andora 02-26-2004 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoS
but you've guys've traded huge chunk of your future in nedorst, johansson, parker (former 1st rounder), stephens, vrbabta (who was traded for battaglia) and 3 draft picks. also, the future considerations for skrastins will likely be a 2nd-3rd rounder if he keeps up the way he is playing right now. i don't think he has done particularly well but he did address his team's needs. PL's invested his team's future in the next 2-3 years. i hope the avs don't dissapoint him

how can you say parker and stephens were huge chunks of the avs future??? and believe it. picks are picks, and we've added some too, and with colorado's draft history, i'm just as confident we'll pick a good player in the 6th round rather than the 3rd round.

the only players IMO that will hurt in some way are vrbata and nedorost (if hahl busts which i don't think will happen). johansson has soo much work to do to get himself into nhl capabilities imo, i can compare him to sjostrom in phoenix, but imo from what i've seen of jonas this year, he hasn't had that development physically/maturally etc.. that sjostrom had in his 2nd year with the hitmen..

a quick note on vrbata, i believe that svatos made him expendable, and management felt that if svatos can stay healthy, he'll be far far more effective than vrbata or even johansson could be for that matter

pretty empty post IMHO, sorry

SaintRon 02-26-2004 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Top 4 GM's in the league:

1) Lou Lamorillo (sp)
2) Ken Holland
3) Pierre LaCroix
4) Bob Gainey

Why? The only GM's to win Cups in the past 9 years

Lou and $$$'s? I thought Lou was tight as dic*s hatband? Payroll's when they won the cup in today's dollars. That would take all night. Nevermind. Lou may be up there in cash spent, but he spends it wisely. Also uses the draft to a T. He's either drafting quality talent or teaching them something after they arrive in Dev's land. Money aside, the guys listed above draft, develop and occasionally pay guys to play as a team and win.

Being a PENS fan, I've watched a team WITH money draft poorly and WITHOUT money draft better. Why is that?

Kidnapping the talent evaluators and motivators in the above listed GM's would do the PENS better than all the money in the world. Heck, Slats has 5 or 6 former PENS who do little each night other than Jags.

Gibsons Finest 02-26-2004 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenny #9
you forgot Kariya and Selanne

and as previously posted the Reinprecht deal

They joined as free agents, this is about trades.

stanley 02-26-2004 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfrancis
I personally don't think LaCroix is a good GM, he's got cash, and a load of prospects from the Nordiques days.

I feel the same way. I surely wouldn't kick PL out of my bed for eating animal crackers (uh...work with me here, folks). He obviously has a good eye for talent or knows how to work with the people who do have a good eye for talent, and he's a good negotiator. Players want to play in Denver.

However, I feel he gets too much credit for moves he's made. He benefitted from one of the greatest inheritences in NHL history. Just as Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur are sure-fire Hall-of-Fame players because of what they did on the ice, one could also argue that they never played on bad teams. I suppose my point is that a universal agreement about one person's greatness is not only due to ability, but also timing.

I also realize this doesn't have much to do with the topic in general, but while you're working with me on the animal cracker thing...

colosilverado 02-26-2004 08:11 PM

Yeah.......PL is an awful GM. He has mortgaged away their future for what, almost 10 years of having a major shot at The Cup plus winning it all twice. Man, I am soooooooo disappointed in PL and his giving away our "future" for a shot at "instant" success. As if The Cup as easy to get, even with a solid lineup.
Sorry, I'll take all of these runs at The Cup and have fans whine at us Avs fans about us spending money and saying that we are losing our future..as if anything is guaranteed instead of having a tightwad GM who cries and will do nothing about their situation other than cry. I'm glad there are teams who have deep prospect pools. That way, we can come and steal them once our veterans are nearing over-the-hill status. Plus, there are some teams who have a whole ton of depth that never seem to turn it into anything and haven't won a cup in a very long time. Slats and Boobie Clark spend alot and don't do jack with it. At least the Flyers are close though.
Some GMs realize that by putting a great product on the ice, and following a certain recipe (as PL calls it), you can actually...*gasp* have a team make money AND still have a very good shot at The Cup every year. Plus, PL/SK realize that the playoffs actually generate some revenue....which some GMs most certainly cannot seem to fathom!

Gibsons Finest 02-26-2004 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colosilverado
Yeah.......PL is an awful GM. He has mortgaged away their future for what, almost 10 years of having a major shot at The Cup plus winning it all twice. Man, I am soooooooo disappointed in PL and his giving away our "future" for a shot at "instant" success. As if The Cup as easy to get, even with a solid lineup.
Sorry, I'll take all of these runs at The Cup and have fans whine at us Avs fans about us spending money and saying that we are losing our future..as if anything is guaranteed instead of having a tightwad GM who cries and will do nothing about their situation other than cry. I'm glad there are teams who have deep prospect pools. That way, we can come and steal them once our veterans are nearing over-the-hill status. Plus, there are some teams who have a whole ton of depth that never seem to turn it into anything and haven't won a cup in a very long time. Slats and Boobie Clark spend alot and don't do jack with it. At least the Flyers are close though.
Some GMs realize that by putting a great product on the ice, and following a certain recipe (as PL calls it), you can actually...*gasp* have a team make money AND still have a very good shot at The Cup every year. Plus, PL/SK realize that the playoffs actually generate some revenue....which some GMs most certainly cannot seem to fathom!

You may love the success now, but if the CBA stops PL from spending as much as he usually does, big name FAs leave for other teams, and they can't draft a total gem, Colorado will start to have losing seasons, and then you might not like it.

Freudian 02-26-2004 08:30 PM

I think a lot of prospects are overrated when they are in Colorado and plummet in value once PL trades them.

Nedorost hasn't shown anything in Colorado or Florida. Add to that he has already had surgery at a young age. If anything he was brutally overrated here at HF (think the site had him as the 18th best prospect in the world. what was that all about). Still might turn out to be an ok 3rd liner or if pretty much everything goes perfect a 2nd liner. But this far he has to be considered a semi-bust.

Johansson was not going to be signed by Colorado. He was asking for too much money compared to his development this far. Also injured at a young age.

Vrbata is the one of those three that might come back to haunt PL. Mostly because Battaglia was a bust in Colorado. Vrbata is a skilled young player that might develop into something. On the other hand he is pretty small and despite given a lot of chances to succeed in Colorado he never really took it.

To describe the trades involving these three players as "trading away the future" is laughable. Those that say that are overrating these three players. Something that often happens with Avs youngsters (probably because the organization has no problem with letting young players get a chance to prove themselves at a young age).

PL has done a great job shipping out players that were not going to help with this cup run, and getting players that will. The only trades in the last year I don't like is Battaglia->Vrbata and Reinprecht->Ballard. The Ballard one would have made more sense during a period that was more focused on rebuilding.


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