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-   -   Kondratiev: Right player or not? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=58292)

True Blue 03-04-2004 06:16 AM

Kondratiev: Right player or not?
 
This is from Brooks today:

"This has to be about creating the organizational environment in which young players can flourish. It has to be about creating and nourishing a system of development. The Rangers not only have to have identified the correct young players (we're told the Blueshirts didn't want young Toronto defense prospect Carlo Colaiacovo, the popular flavor of the month, but rather targeted far less sexy Maxim Kondratiev, who has played with Fedor Tyutin) but they have to have the correct coaches to teach them, to guide them. "

I did not know that we turned down Colaiacovo in favor of Kondratiev. ESPN lists Kondratiev at 6', 176 lbs. I admit not knowing much about the kid, but I do know about Colaiacovo. Is there anyone that can make an argument that Jackass made the right move? Did Jackass turn down Colaiacovo just so that he can have Tyutin's partner from the WJC's?

The other point is right too. If you are going w/ a full-fledged rebuild and youth movement (and if you trade Leetch, what else can it be? ), you had better get the right coach in here. I know that Trotts was a disaster, but if all the names that we want (Q) are not available, would we be opposed to McGill & Fotiu? They seem to be doing a good job w/ the Hartford youngsters. Definetly not Renney.

Also, am I the only one worried about Sather's ability to identify talent? His drafting record is not too stellar. I am having trouble relying on him to get the correct draft picks with our #1 and all the new picks that we picked up. And the news that we turned down Colaiacovo makes me fear about any of the prospects that he did choose to get so far.

V for Voodoo 03-04-2004 06:23 AM

The Colaiacovo vs Kondratiev argument is moot, because Colaiacovo was not on the table.

True Blue 03-04-2004 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Daddy
The Colaiacovo vs Kondratiev argument is moot, because Colaiacovo was not on the table.

According to the papers, he was and was rejected by the Rangers. I doubt that your sources are any better than mine in this case.

V for Voodoo 03-04-2004 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
According to the papers, he was and was rejected by the Rangers. I doubt that your sources are any better than mine in this case.

Brooks is your source? With all due respect, if Colaiacovo was available, Gonchar would be a Leaf.
It may very well be that the Rangers brass saw something in Kondratiev that made him more appealing to them than Colaiacovo, but I sincerely doubt they had a choice in the matter. No sources needed, just a little common sense.

Fire Sather 03-04-2004 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Daddy
Brooks is your source? With all due respect, if Colaiacovo was available, Gonchar would be a Leaf.
It may very well be that the Rangers brass saw something in Kondratiev that made him more appealing to them than Colaiacovo, but I sincerely doubt they had a choice in the matter. No sources needed, just a little common sense.

I agree, I dont think the Leafs would trade Carlo for Leetch instead of Gonchar.

True Blue 03-04-2004 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Daddy
Brooks is your source? With all due respect, if Colaiacovo was available, Gonchar would be a Leaf.

And just what is your source? How is your belief that Colaiacovo was not on the table any more credible than Brooks? Not that I want to start the wrong debate, but does it realy matter? We are getting away from the point.

jas 03-04-2004 07:21 AM

TB, to be honest...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
This is from Brooks today:

"This has to be about creating the organizational environment in which young players can flourish. It has to be about creating and nourishing a system of development. The Rangers not only have to have identified the correct young players (we're told the Blueshirts didn't want young Toronto defense prospect Carlo Colaiacovo, the popular flavor of the month, but rather targeted far less sexy Maxim Kondratiev, who has played with Fedor Tyutin) but they have to have the correct coaches to teach them, to guide them. "

I did not know that we turned down Colaiacovo in favor of Kondratiev. ESPN lists Kondratiev at 6', 176 lbs. I admit not knowing much about the kid, but I do know about Colaiacovo. Is there anyone that can make an argument that Jackass made the right move? Did Jackass turn down Colaiacovo just so that he can have Tyutin's partner from the WJC's?

The other point is right too. If you are going w/ a full-fledged rebuild and youth movement (and if you trade Leetch, what else can it be? ), you had better get the right coach in here. I know that Trotts was a disaster, but if all the names that we want (Q) are not available, would we be opposed to McGill & Fotiu? They seem to be doing a good job w/ the Hartford youngsters. Definetly not Renney.

Also, am I the only one worried about Sather's ability to identify talent? His drafting record is not too stellar. I am having trouble relying on him to get the correct draft picks with our #1 and all the new picks that we picked up. And the news that we turned down Colaiacovo makes me fear about any of the prospects that he did choose to get so far.

I think a coach is no longer as essential as it was before these moves. That sounds wrong, I know, but let me explain. For years this organization has had NO accoutability, and everything was run like a country club. As the high-priced prima donnas are moved out, I think someone like a Ryan McGill or even Tom Renney, a successful junior coach with a defense-first attitude will have the attention of the locker room, since most of it will be made up of of young, hungry players, much like Hartford is now. And, having a Bobby Holik around, who could finally put his stamp on this franchise as a leader of modern times (you know, post-1994), will also going along way towards accountability and defensive responsibility. Notice how every player coming up from Hartford is miles ahead of the clowns on the big club interms of back-checking and defensive responsibilty? Therefore, while I know there will be a clamor for a Quenneville or a Ted Nolan, I don't think that has to be done, as long as Ron Low, part II doesn't arrive.

John Flyers Fan 03-04-2004 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
And just what is your source? How is your belief that Colaiacovo was not on the table any more credible than Brooks? Not that I want to start the wrong debate, but does it realy matter? We are getting away from the point.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=74803

What Ferguson was not ready to give up was any of his true blue-chip youngsters such as Matt Stajan, Alexander Steen or Carlo Colaiacovo - whose name had long been linked in a deal for Gonchar.

"I said no consistently and repetitively on a host of deals and this was the one that made sense," Ferguson said.


I'll trust McKenzie far more than Brooks.

Davisian 03-04-2004 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'll trust McKenzie far more than Brooks.

These aren't two mutually exclusive reports/opinions..

Seems like Brooks is suggesting the Rangers preferred Kondratiev, and McKenzie is suggesting the Leafs didn't want to deal Cola..

I would think that Sather was looking at the whole package, not trying to get just one name for Leetch, and Kondratiev's past with Tyutin, along with another prospect and 2 picks is more attractive to a rebuilding team than Cola + a smaller package..

SingnBluesOnBroadway 03-04-2004 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Daddy
Brooks is your source? With all due respect, if Colaiacovo was available, Gonchar would be a Leaf.
It may very well be that the Rangers brass saw something in Kondratiev that made him more appealing to them than Colaiacovo, but I sincerely doubt they had a choice in the matter. No sources needed, just a little common sense.

Well if you believe what a writer from the Toronto Star/Sun (which is it?) said on WFAN last night, he believes the Leafs were never really all that serious about Gonchar and that Leetch was the guy they wanted all along.

Pearl Necklace 03-04-2004 08:39 AM

TSN; Glenn Healy in his clip, "2 Minutes for Instigating"...
 
...makes the comment that Kondratiev quit on his AHL team (St.Johns, I think?). It appears he exercised his option to go back to Russia and that is why he is playing there.

I do not know any other specifics or reasons, I just thought it was an interesting perspective from someone happy to see him leave the Leaf's farm system.

DarthSather99 03-04-2004 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Also, am I the only one worried about Sather's ability to identify talent? His drafting record is not too stellar. I am having trouble relying on him to get the correct draft picks with our #1 and all the new picks that we picked up. And the news that we turned down Colaiacovo makes me fear about any of the prospects that he did choose to get so far.

If you ever saw "inside Rangers" in which they show'd a behind the scenes of the draft proceedings, Sather is not dictator in choosing the players. Tom Rennney is the point man and the scouts have lots of input. Sather's name gets tagged to prospects but you can not credit/blame Sather for a particlar pick here with the rangers. I'm not sure if this is the way it was done in Edmonton. Sather's biggest draft mistakes so far has been the trading of #1 picks and other lower picks. The only player above the third round that I think is questinable is Lee Farledeau. Novak, Murray, Blackburn, Murray, Roche, Jessiman, Barnaka were good choices where they were picked. Yeah there are probably some they missed but did those players become dominate players? NO! I despise Sather like the rest on ranger fans but I know he is not the sole responsiblity of what happens at the draft.

Player development and NOT trading prospects is what Sather really has to work on. Drafting a good player isn't enough. You have to surround him with a support group that will make him flourish.

p.l.f. 03-04-2004 09:32 AM

thank god colaiacovo wasnt in this
our only real high potential defenseman in the minors

kondratiev played the first few weeks of the season until mccabe came back
then got sent to st.john's
then left back for russia
he bad mouthed the leaf's farm club saying the team has no system and all they want me to do is bang the puck off the glass
so it's not suprising he got traded

he's slightly below avg in size, good skater, decent hands.
good without the puck, pretty smart
he can play in the nhl now if he's given a chance

p.l.f. 03-04-2004 09:34 AM

immonen is a really small speedy winger with good hands
don't know if he'll like the smaller nhl rinks etc

BDubinskyNYR17* 03-04-2004 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p.l.f.
thank god colaiacovo wasnt in this
our only real high potential defenseman in the minors

kondratiev played the first few weeks of the season until mccabe came back
then got sent to st.john's
then left back for russia
he bad mouthed the leaf's farm club saying the team has no system and all they want me to do is bang the puck off the glass
so it's not suprising he got traded

he's slightly below avg in size, good skater, decent hands.
good without the puck, pretty smart
he can play in the nhl now if he's given a chance


Can he play in the NHL this season or does he have to clear waivers since he is playing in Russia?

Melrose_Jr. 03-04-2004 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p.l.f.
he bad mouthed the leaf's farm club saying the team has no system

He ain't seen nothing yet.

Pure speculation on my point TB, but perhaps Sather knew he'd have to up the ante if there was any chance of landing Colaiacovo. The goal was moving veteran players, not acquiring the best prospect we can possibly get our hands on. I'm sure there's a package that would have gotten us Cola, but I can assure you that you wouldn't have liked it very much.

p.l.f. 03-04-2004 09:56 AM

i dont know what the deal is in russia
i doubt he comes back just for a month
he sounded homesick

BLACKBURN 03-04-2004 09:57 AM

Ive heard some really good thing about max. I hope they are true as we arent deep on D and we need to build from the net out. With Lundquist and hopefully blackburn we should be ok there. He also has some history playing with Tutin apparently (WJC?) so that may be a positive.

joepeps 03-04-2004 11:07 AM

Heres the deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
Ive heard some really good thing about max. I hope they are true as we arent deep on D and we need to build from the net out. With Lundquist and hopefully blackburn we should be ok there. He also has some history playing with Tutin apparently (WJC?) so that may be a positive.


Kond : Very good talent.. Had a break out training camp, and made the big club at the start of the year.. Played some games, was alright got sent down to St. Johns.
Played there for a bit quit on the team, and used his "play in Russia option" on his contact.

Immonen: Break out year... if i'm not mistaken 60 point in like 40 games... Center man

leafaholix* 03-04-2004 11:12 AM

Max Kondratiev (aka, Drats) will be a stud.

Bill Watters had him as the Leafs #1 prospect going into camp. Don't believe all the garbage you read about Max being a "quitter"... his english was a problem, he had no place to stay, and didn't like the thought of being sent back and forth (St. John's to Toronto, vice versa) over the course of the season.

Khelvan 03-04-2004 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
This is from Brooks today:

"This has to be about creating the organizational environment in which young players can flourish. It has to be about creating and nourishing a system of development. The Rangers not only have to have identified the correct young players (we're told the Blueshirts didn't want young Toronto defense prospect Carlo Colaiacovo, the popular flavor of the month, but rather targeted far less sexy Maxim Kondratiev, who has played with Fedor Tyutin) but they have to have the correct coaches to teach them, to guide them. "

I did not know that we turned down Colaiacovo in favor of Kondratiev.

Umm, I hope there is more to the article than what you posted above. The excerpt does not say that Colaiacovo was offered, that he was turned down, or that he WOULD have been turned down if he were offered. It simly says that the Rangers targetted Kondratiev rathere than Colaiacovo. For all we know that could mean that Sather asked for Colaiacovo, knowing full well he wasn't going to get him (and didn't want him), to increase his chances of getting the player they had targetted, Kondratiev.

Perhaps the Rangers were being realistic here, knowing that any request for Colaiacovo has been met with a resounding "no" time and time again.

-Khel

n8 03-04-2004 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Max Kondratiev (aka, Drats) will be a stud.

Bill Watters had him as the Leafs #1 prospect going into camp. Don't believe all the garbage you read about Max being a "quitter"... his english was a problem, he had no place to stay, and didn't like the thought of being sent back and forth (St. John's to Toronto, vice versa) over the course of the season.

i read the posted article and that's what i got from it. there were no russians on the team, his english wasn't that good, the coaches weren't teaching him, and other players he knew had similar experiences of learning nothing in the AHL so i don't blame the guy at all. "throw the puck off the glass" is not constructive coaching IMO. of course that's not the whole picture but i'm sure it's close enough to how maxi felt in his 35 games. also, he said the weather in NewF was awful. I just don't have a good sense of his play style.


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