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-   -   Salary Cap: Updated Salary Chart (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=588994)

Grant Dovey 12-30-2008 03:41 PM

Updated Salary Chart
 
After months of laziness, here is an updated in-season chart:

http://www.flyerscap.com/currentcap.htm

CantSeeColors 12-30-2008 03:53 PM

Isn't Carter still restricted when his deal is up?

BillyShoe1721 12-30-2008 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantSeeColors (Post 17050511)
Isn't Carter still restricted when his deal is up?

Yup.

Grant Dovey 12-30-2008 04:03 PM

fixed

Pwood 12-30-2008 04:29 PM

Very nice chart. Can't e-mail suggestions because my e-mail is wonky right now, but I suggest, if at all possible, that when you scroll over a player's name that it doesn't cover up the players below it. I'm having to move my cursor off the chart and then back on again to see the details of players that are close together on the chart (Richards and Gagne, for example). I know you've put a lot of hard work into it, so great job, and I really apprciate how helpful this is. I definitely bookmarked it. I just saw that you were open to suggestions. Otherwise, great work.

RJ8812 12-30-2008 08:17 PM

ah nice, another Flyers Cap chart...we only have 10 already

good work none the less

Grant Dovey 12-30-2008 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwood (Post 17051068)
Very nice chart. Can't e-mail suggestions because my e-mail is wonky right now, but I suggest, if at all possible, that when you scroll over a player's name that it doesn't cover up the players below it. I'm having to move my cursor off the chart and then back on again to see the details of players that are close together on the chart (Richards and Gagne, for example). I know you've put a lot of hard work into it, so great job, and I really apprciate how helpful this is. I definitely bookmarked it. I just saw that you were open to suggestions. Otherwise, great work.

Do you mean the pictures or the actual black box?

Chuck Downie 12-31-2008 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goflyguys (Post 17050322)
After months of laziness, here is an updated in-season chart:

http://www.flyerscap.com/currentcap.htm

Really impressive. Thanks for the update!

Pwood 12-31-2008 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goflyguys (Post 17055203)
Do you mean the pictures or the actual black box?

The actual black box. Like, if I could scroll over the name, and then the rest of the table just moved down with it instead of being covered up, it would be a little easier to read. It's really nothing major. I'm tellin' ya, really nice work!

Grant Dovey 12-31-2008 12:49 PM

That's weird because it works fine for me.

Pwood 12-31-2008 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goflyguys (Post 17067039)
That's weird because it works fine for me.

Maybe it's just my PC, but it covers up the 3 players below the one you've selected when I do it. If no one else is experiencing this, then it's probably this PC.

mm6492 12-31-2008 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwood (Post 17067646)
Maybe it's just my PC, but it covers up the 3 players below the one you've selected when I do it. If no one else is experiencing this, then it's probably this PC.

doesn't do it ofr me

phlocky 12-31-2008 05:33 PM

Nice, but not accurate. LTIR works very differnetly than simply having a player NOT count at all against the cap while they are on LTIR. It's pretty complex and you'd actually probably have to write a computer program to keep track of it properly. I could probably do it by hand but it would be a ***** and would have to be updated every day.

Edit: Ok, there has been so talk about our cap situation (and most of it inaccurate) I'm going to try and work it out by hand THE RIGHT WAY. I probably won't be able to finish it until tomorrow but I'll post it when I get it finished (provided I don't get too bored and quit, lol).

Edit #2: ok, so I'm doing it on a spread sheet and I'm doing for every day of the season so it's going to be pretty complex. As such, it's going to take me a while to finish it and I'm going to my sisters tonight for New Years eve and won't have it finished until the weekend sometime. I'll post it when I'm finished.

phlocky 01-01-2009 01:25 AM

Ok guys, I'm not finished with my spread sheet yet but I really don't need to finish it to know where the Flyers are at and how much room we have left. We have Rathje and Hatcher on LTIR and it looks like at least one will remain on the list all season long. Basically the Flyers gain NOTHING by having anything less than the absolute maximum cap limit on their active roster on any day of the season. With so much in LTIR cap we will NEVER be at a point this year where we will have any unused cap space for a season day. As such, you can simply add up all the salaries for the Flyers on the active roster and that total must be below the 56.7 mil limit. If we are at 54 mil then we can add a player who's yearly cap number is 2 mil or less. Waiting 2 months will NOT let us add a player who has a higher cap hit because we have been at 54 mil (2.7 mil under the limit) and accrued extra cap space for later. The truth is that we are NOT under the 56.7 mil limit and we haven't been under that limit for a single day this season. In reality we have been far far over the cap limit every day this season and we will finish the season as such. However, we get a medical extra that lets us exceed the cap limit ON A DAILY COMPUTED BASIS from our active roster plus LTIR roster players UP TO AN AMOUNT EQUAL TO the combined cap of the players on LTIR. If you don't use the maximum medical exemption you loose it. Every day we have been at the cap limit with some of it being unused medical exemption.

This is our current active roster as I saw it for Dec 31th, 2008: Richards, Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, Knuble, Lupul, Upshall, Metro, Asham, Kalinski, Cote, Giroux, Powe, Gratton (14 forwards), Timonen, Carle, Jones, Coburn, Alberts, Vaananen, Kukkonen, Sbisa (8 dmen), Biron, & Nitty. That 24 man roster has a cap total of 54.025 mil, leaving us room for a player(s) with cap salaries not to exceed 2.675 mil. However, once Briere is activated, we will have to have shed at least 3.825 mil in salary to be in cap compliance. We can get down to a 22 man roster (13 forwards, 7 dmen and 2 goalies) by sending down to the Phantoms Kalinski, Giroux and Kukkonen (note, Nodl isn't included in the current cap and roster analysis so don't say we send him down before Giroux). Giroux and Kalinski are the 2 highest paid forwards on 2-way deals who son't have to pass through waivers and Kukkonen is the highest paid dman we can send down (remember, he has already cleared waivers). That will only total 2.572 mil in cap space cleared making it mandatory for us to move another 1.253 mil. I don't believe we can have fewer than 21 players on the active roster so at most we can send down 1 more player without having to call another up. There is no single player on the remaining active roster who makes at least 1.253 mil who would NOT have to first clear waivers. That pretty much means that we are going to be moving at least one player without taking on additional salary (or at least we will be shedding a good bit more than we are taking on in salary. Expect the Flyer to put together a 24 man roster with a cap hit right around 55 mil.

Here is a good link that explains how you compute the cap. There are a few holes in it mainly that it's not real clear in some explinations but it's not incorrect at all.
http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm#article_50.10

Chainsaw 01-01-2009 01:36 AM

We are in so much cap trouble...........

phlocky 01-01-2009 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chainsaw (Post 17079704)
We are in so much cap trouble...........

Yup, we've been robbing Peter to pay Paul all season long. Even if we assume that Hatcher and Rathje will not return at all this season and we basically ignor them in any cap conversations, we have not had even one day this season where we could have everyone back healthy and be cap compliant AFTER we added Carle to the team. I believe we would have been fine without Carles nearly 3.5 mil cap salary but with it we are seriously effed. Moving Carle would solve the cap problem. Moving 2 of Jones, Lupul and Knuble would solve the problem. Moving Hartnell would solve the problem (I thought he got a NMC in his deal but I couldn't fins anything on it on the 3 sites I was on), Moving one of Jones, Knuble or Lupul could probably be made to work but we'd be running dangerously close to the limit and a few injuries racked up together and we wouldn't have the cap space to call up a player to even put a full team on the ice. I expect us to move either Carle or Hartnell or 2 of Jones/Lupul/Knuble.

Grant Dovey 01-01-2009 08:53 AM

now all this has me thinking more than i want to. are you saying in my chart i shouldn't count the guys not on the active roster, i.e. nodl, ross, downie. from how i understood it, those guys still count daily for how many days they have played.

phlocky 01-01-2009 11:35 AM

Ok, I'll do JUST day one for the Fllyers this year, October 9th, 2008.

There are a total of 186 days in the NHL year this season. With the cap limit at 56.7 mil this season, the Flyers were permitted to spend a MAXIMUM of $304,839 (56.7 mil divided by 186 days). On day one the Flyers had the following players on their active roster :Briere, Richards, Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, Knuble, Lupul, Upshall, Metro, Asham, Cote, Ross, Downie, Timonen, Coburn, Eminger, Vaananen, Kukkonen, Sbisa, Biron, and Nitty. They had Hatcher, Rathje, Jones and Parent on LTIR. The Flyers had and active roster salary of just 52.842 mil and it took $284,097 (52.842/186) out of their 56.7 mil they had for the season. HOWEVER, the flyers also had 10.605 mil of salary on LTIR that still counted against the cap and another $57.016 came off the Flyers remaining cap amount for a combined day one salary cap hit of $341,113. The absolute minimum any team can have remaining in their cap after day one is 56.7 mil * 185 / 186 or $56,395,161. The Flyers only had $56,358,887 (after both the active roster and LTIR one day salaries were subtracted). Now since the Flyers were below the minimum necessary to maintain 56.7 mil cap for the remaining days, the Flyers were awarded the difference between where they actually were at and where the minimum is at or $36,274. This is where the "up to the amount of LTIR salary" comes into play. The Flyers had $57,016 in LTIR salary but only got "credited" for $36,274 of it, we lost the rest. Thus, regardless of what the cap total is of our active roster (only 52+ mil) on day one, on paper it looked like our cap was at the maximum 56.7 mil.

Now I'll explain why the above is so significant. Lets assume that the Flyers had no LTIR salary on day 1 and we had a cap of $52,842,000. From the above cals that would be a one day hit of $284,097. This amount would be removed from our 56.7 mil "bank account" leaving us with $56,513,913. We now only have 185 days remaining in the hockey year so that means we can now spend $305,481 on day 2. That would be a cap maximum of $56,819,393. Notice we gained over 100k of prorated cap space that we can exceed to 56.7 mil limit by being under on day one. Every day we would be under the max we'd gain cap space for adding a rental player at the end of the season. This is how teams have an ending total team cap salary exceeding the 56.7 mil. Because the Flyer hav so much money on LTIR we have not, and barring trading Hatcher and Rathje, WILL NOT on any day this season NOT spend the absolute maximum permitted. We gain absolutely nothing by cutting our active roster cap to 50 mil, we simply loose that unused cap space every day. We can and SHOULD spend right up to the limit and have our active roster cap as close to the 56.7 mil limit as possible. We do not have to be under 56.7 mil but we can not exceed it by even one penny this season and we have NO cap cusion. Some sites say that we have a 200k cusion or what ever but that's not exactly true. There really isn't room to fully explain the cap calculations on these sites so they either simplify things or just plain get it wrong. You can see how long it was for me to explain it here, just imagine what it would be like on these sites.

phlocky 01-01-2009 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goflyguys (Post 17081242)
now all this has me thinking more than i want to. are you saying in my chart i shouldn't count the guys not on the active roster, i.e. nodl, ross, downie. from how i understood it, those guys still count daily for how many days they have played.

In regards to who has eaten up how much of the cap, it simply doesn't matter. Who cares if Downie was on the day one roster and isn't now. All that reall matters is that with LTIR the Flyers spent the maximum they could on day 1. With LTIR the Flyers spent the maximum on day 2. With LTIR the Flyers spent the maximum on day 3. The ONLY thing that matters TODAY is that their active roaster (and that includes any player sent to the minors for conditioning, ala Jones) TODAY cannot yexceed 56.7 mil. We have accrued no cusion that would permit us to exceed this limit and anything below this we lose to LTIR. We cannot look ahead to tomorrow because we don't know what tomorrow holds. We must keep the minimum amount in our account to maintain an "average" daily payout that would not drop below 56.7 mil of yearly based cap salary.

If you want to do it the right way you could keep track of how much guys like Downie counted against the cap (his prorated salary for the # of days he was on the active roster) and add a seperate row for LTIR cap hit. This LTIR cap hit will vary every day based upon what our active roster cap is at but the combined of what we spent plus the LTIR lose will ALWAYS put us at having spent the absolute maximum every day.

Note, this is just OUR situation THIS YEAR. Other teams are different and probably more complex. Because we have had so much salary on LTIR every day this year, computing it's effect on us this year is very easy. It gets very very complex for teams that started under the cap limit with no LTIR and who then go over the cap limit when they add in replacement players.

MountainHawk 01-01-2009 11:49 AM

This is the way I try to make sense of the cap. I'm not 100% certain it is completely accurate, so if you think there is a mistake, let me know. I've posted it here before:

Quote:


RS = days in the regular season

Spent Cap Hit: Starts at $0. Add 1/RS of the annual cap hit after each game from all players on the 23 man roster or that are on LTIR.

Future Cap Hit: Equals D/RS * annual cap hit (where D is the number of days remaining in the regular season) of all players on the 23 man roster or LTIR

Spent Cap Hit + Future Cap Hit = Team Cap Number.

Earned LTIR Relief = When at least one player is on LTIR, the team is allowed to exceed the cap by the amount of the sum of the annual cap hits of the players on LTIR. This value starts at $0, and you add 1/RS * actual excess spent each day there are players in LTIR (you actually have to spend the money, if you don't replace it, you lose the relief.)

For example: If the cap was $50M, and the Flyers spent to $49.8M. A player with a $5M cap hit goes on LTIR in the preseason, and we replace him with a $4M cap hit player. The Flyers would be at $53.8M on the cap, and would therefore earn $3.8M * 1/RS as long as the player was on LTIR.

Note: You don't actually appoint a 'replacement' player. Essentially, the Flyers would be allowed to spend to $55M, if they did it before the cap calcs started.

Future Potential LTIR Relief is equal to D/RS * (Team Cap Number - Upper Limit) for any day of the season. Note that (Team Cap Number - Upper Limit) can never exceed the amount of the cap hit that is currently on LTIR.


Final Team Cap Number = Team Cap Number - Earned LTIR Relief - Future Potential LTIR Relief.



phlocky 01-01-2009 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainHawk (Post 17082137)
This is the way I try to make sense of the cap. I'm not 100% certain it is completely accurate, so if you think there is a mistake, let me know. I've posted it here before:

This is correct. The important thing to remember is that just because a player goes on LTIR you don't get his ENTIRE cap hit as relief. You only get relief for the amount that you EXCEED the cap on a daily basis. Thus, you might as well exceed the cap by as close to the amount of money you have on LTIR unless you are under the cap even with the player who is on LTIR and his replacement(s).

I think there is one minor mistake in your accounting of the LTIR portion. In you's every single day is looked at individually in computing the LTIR cap relief. I think this is incorrect. I believe that it acutally works this way (I'll use an example to explain it):

Lets say the Flyers were under the cap limit by 3 mil. for the first 1/3rd of the season. Then Briere goes on LTIR and the Flyers replace him with a player that puts them over the cap by 1.5 mil. Before the inruy the Flyer had built up a "cusion" of 1 mil (3 mil under the cap for 1/3rd of the season nets us a 1 mil cusion). We do not get ANY LTIR cap relief until we have used up all of this 1 mil cusion we have built up.

I think this is the only mistake and it may not really be a mistake just not clearly explained. I think that what you have can be slightly misleading, that's all.

MountainHawk 01-01-2009 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phlocky (Post 17082324)
This is correct. The important thing to remember is that just because a player goes on LTIR you don't get his ENTIRE cap hit as relief. You only get relief for the amount that you EXCEED the cap on a daily basis. Thus, you might as well exceed the cap by as close to the amount of money you have on LTIR unless you are under the cap even with the player who is on LTIR and his replacement(s).

I think there is one minor mistake in your accounting of the LTIR portion. In you's every single day is looked at individually in computing the LTIR cap relief. I think this is incorrect. I believe that it acutally works this way (I'll use an example to explain it):

Lets say the Flyers were under the cap limit by 3 mil. for the first 1/3rd of the season. Then Briere goes on LTIR and the Flyers replace him with a player that puts them over the cap by 1.5 mil. Before the inruy the Flyer had built up a "cusion" of 1 mil (3 mil under the cap for 1/3rd of the season nets us a 1 mil cusion). We do not get ANY LTIR cap relief until we have used up all of this 1 mil cusion we have built up.

I think this is the only mistake and it may not really be a mistake just not clearly explained. I think that what you have can be slightly misleading, that's all.

Yes, you are right, the explanation is misleading. The Earned LTIR Relief should be the (Team Cap Hit - Upper Limit) * 1/RS.

Another made up example, to make sure I have it straight.

The Upper Limit is $50M. There are 180 days in the season for ease of computation.

The Flyers are coasting along at $48M until after day 60, when a $3M player is injured, but the Flyers replace him with a $6M player.

My spent cap hit would be at $16M.

My future cap hit would be at $51M*120/180 = $34M.

The Team Cap is now $50M, so the LTIR relief would be $0.

Now, if instead they sign a $8M player, the future cap hit is $53M *120/180 = $35.3M.

The Team Cap is now $51.3M, so the Flyers will have $1.3M of LTIR relief for the 120 days, or $1.95M annualized LTIR relief

Each day that the player remains on LTIR, the Flyers earn 1/180 of that $1.95M LTIR relief. If the player comes off LTIR after 60 days, they'll have $0.65M of cap relief in the earned category, nothing in the future category, so they essentially have a Upper Limit of $50.65M that the spent cap + future cap must stay under.

phlocky 01-01-2009 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainHawk (Post 17082416)
Yes, you are right, the explanation is misleading. The Earned LTIR Relief should be the (Team Cap Hit - Upper Limit) * 1/RS.

Another made up example, to make sure I have it straight.

The Upper Limit is $50M. There are 180 days in the season for ease of computation.

The Flyers are coasting along at $48M until after day 60, when a $3M player is injured, but the Flyers replace him with a $6M player.

My spent cap hit would be at $16M.

My future cap hit would be at $51M*120/180 = $34M.

The Team Cap is now $50M, so the LTIR relief would be $0.

Now, if instead they sign a $8M player, the future cap hit is $53M *120/180 = $35.3M.

The Team Cap is now $51.3M, so the Flyers will have $1.3M of LTIR relief for the 120 days, or $1.95M annualized LTIR relief

Each day that the player remains on LTIR, the Flyers earn 1/180 of that $1.95M LTIR relief. If the player comes off LTIR after 60 days, they'll have $0.65M of cap relief in the earned category, nothing in the future category, so they essentially have a Upper Limit of $50.65M that the spent cap + future cap must stay under.

Yes, this is corret. I take it you were always very good at math in school?

MountainHawk 01-01-2009 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phlocky (Post 17082509)
Yes, this is corret. I take it you were always very good at math in school?

I'm an actuary. ;)

chaosof99* 01-01-2009 08:21 PM

In the draft picks you list that we have two Tampa Bay fourth round picks. How can any team have two picks assigned to it in the same round?
You also list Randy Jones for 186 days, but he was riding the LTIR until recently. Shouldn't his Days be a lot smaller?


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