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-   -   Value of: Mason Raymond (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=599437)

NOTENOUGHBREWER 01-26-2009 09:20 AM

Mason Raymond
 
His name comes up in pretty much every Vancouver trade proposal.

He's got great speed, but seems to lack great hands or a head for the game as he's never able to convert his speed into any offense thus far. Can he become a legit second liner one day? And if so what do people think his value will be.

FrankMTL 01-26-2009 09:29 AM

Ya seriously....I was gonna ask this. Every team seems to have a player they seem to always mention in trade talks and he's the one that comes up the most from the Canucks. We don't see him a ton out East..

CRDragon 01-26-2009 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankMTL (Post 17542965)
Ya seriously....I was gonna ask this. Every team seems to have a player they seem to always mention in trade talks and he's the one that comes up the most from the Canucks. We don't see him a ton out East..

With his speed and skill, he's much more suitable in the Eastern Conference than in the West.
The West is too tight defensively for him.

He needs more strength training and needs to stop going around in circles and falling to the ice.

sgupca 01-26-2009 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRDragon (Post 17543264)
With his speed and skill, he's much more suitable in the Eastern Conference than in the West.
The West is too tight defensively for him.

He needs more strength training and needs to stop going around in circles and falling to the ice.

I tend to agree with this,

I think he'd make a great winger on a team in the East. This kid can flat-out-fly. A trade to the Pens to play on Crosby's wing would be a perfect fit for Raymond.

Raymond reminds me of Dustin Brown in LA IMO.

Vector 01-26-2009 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgupca (Post 17543321)
Raymond reminds me of Dustin Brown in LA IMO.

In what way? They have almost opposite play styles.

What others have said. He doesn't really fit on the Canucks at this point in time. Great speed and occasional flashes of hands and understanding of the game. Needs a strong mentor who can show him how to use his linemates. He's "soft" but not afraid to get hurt. Surprisingly good in the defensive end and adept enough to play the PK. Reminds me of Lombardi before he was able to put it together.

NOTENOUGHBREWER 01-26-2009 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgupca (Post 17543321)
I tend to agree with this,

I think he'd make a great winger on a team in the East. This kid can flat-out-fly. A trade to the Pens to play on Crosby's wing would be a perfect fit for Raymond.

Raymond reminds me of Dustin Brown in LA IMO.

Why would he remind you of Milan Hejduk :sarcasm:

I think the reason I'm so curious is that Raymond is a tough player categorize. A fast guy like him you'd think would be a goal scorer and constantly be going into openings and getting shots on goal, but he doesnt do that he likes to skate wide around defenders. Yet he doesnt seem to have the vision or patience to use his speed to create openings for others and make a play.

Biggzy* 01-26-2009 10:43 AM

What do the Canucks need? I'd love Raymond on the Panthers.

Peter Griffin 01-26-2009 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggzy (Post 17543714)
What do the Canucks need? I'd love Raymond on the Panthers.

Jay Bouwmeester or Nathan Horton.:):sarcasm:

UpGoesRupp 01-26-2009 10:52 AM

I Really hope Vancouver doesn't trade Raymond. His speed is easily top 5 in the league. His offensive vision is good. As well as his defensive coverage.

Raymonds only problem is well, it's his first year in the league. He can't be expected to preform like many other first years have.(I say first year as in first full season) We've been so lucky to see people like, Vlasic, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin etc come in and make an instant impact.

I hope Vancouver gives Raymond a bit of time for his head to catch up with his legs. I can really see this being a player we give away that ends up flourising. Like Vancouvers done so many times before. As soon as his head starts getting comfortable and he uses his speed to create the right chances and knows when to and when not to use it, he'll be fine.

As far as value. I think any eastern team would take a flyer on him. speed, skill and potential. With how down the canucks are on him right now, i'm sure teams could get him for far less value than he's worth. Perhaps a 2/3rd liner and a 3rd. Nothing special. Raymond won't fetch much by himself.

Luck 6 01-26-2009 10:57 AM

re
 
I think 100% Raymond will be an accomplished 2nd liner one day... Maybe even more, he has great potential.

Raymond does have hands and has a great wrist shot.. And can even play point on the PP; we use him there sometimes when Salo goes down on the 2nd unit. His downfall is he seems to skate really fast around the perimeter then pass to the point.. Can't seem to break into the middle and create scoring chances. He's still young though and I could see that changing as he adds size.

A lot of Canucks feel he doesn't fit on our team.. I personally disagree. The make-up of this team may change drastically in the coming years and I think once Raymond adds some weight (currently 185 lbs. and fast as ****) and some confidence he's gonna excel.. Even more so I'd bet in the East.

I'd love to see Raymond - Hodgson - Grabner line either next season or the one after... That would be an exciting line with a LOT of potential. If it clicked, could be effective to...

Biggzy* 01-26-2009 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin (Post 17543732)
Jay Bouwmeester or Nathan Horton.:):sarcasm:

Lol I meant realistically.

What areas do the Canucks need to improve? There goaltending I'm sure is fine. They seem to have good offense and defense. So I really don't know what they need.

Peter Griffin 01-26-2009 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggzy (Post 17543883)
Lol I meant realistically.

What areas do the Canucks need to improve? There goaltending I'm sure is fine. They seem to have good offense and defense. So I really don't know what they need.

Well realistically, I only see him dealt as part of a package for an improvement at forward or on defense. They aren't likely to move him for a draft pick or prosect(unless it's an overpayment) and looking at the Florida roster there really isn't a whole lot that interests me that could be a fair one for one deal.

The Canucks two biggest weaknesses IMO are at top 6 RW and a solid puck moving defenseman who can QB the PP.

NFITO 01-26-2009 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankMTL (Post 17542965)
Ya seriously....I was gonna ask this. Every team seems to have a player they seem to always mention in trade talks and he's the one that comes up the most from the Canucks. We don't see him a ton out East..

the reason Raymond always comes up in trade discussions is because he is the canucks most marketable trade asset right now and if they are looking for short-term success (which the signing of Sundin combined with the contract status of all of the vets would lead you to believe), then trading Raymond for more immediate help makes sense.

Raymond is still very young (2nd year in the league, 1st full season), and has a lot of potential still... his speed, which really is at the elite level, gives him value around the league and combined with his rookie level contract, he becomes an attractive piece for teams looking to sell immediate impact talent for future potential.

as far as his fit on the canucks, he doesn't fit in well right now... but that, IMO, has more to do with his lack of experience and being at a stage in his development that he's still early in the learning process, than it does with his lack of skills. The canucks are a team that needs help now... not a guy who could be a great 2nd liner in a couple years, but one that is a great 2nd liner now... the canucks also have a young prospect who brings a similar skill set to Raymond that can replace him in the lineup in a year or two (Grabner), but may not return the same type of value in a trade because he's further back in his development than Raymond - GMs around the league have seen what Raymond can do already... Grabner is still more of an unknown at this point. So trading Raymond for immediate help, then replacing that short-term help with Grabner longterm, makes more sense for this team right now than banking on a still developing Raymond right now, and having both guys in the lineup in a year or two.

NFITO 01-26-2009 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin (Post 17543952)
Well realistically, I only see him dealt as part of a package for an improvement at forward or on defense. They aren't likely to move him for a draft pick or prosect(unless it's an overpayment) and looking at the Florida roster there really isn't a whole lot that interests me that could be a fair one for one deal.

not this season, but I wouldn't be surprised if Raymond (if he's not traded before then) is used to move up at the draft...

if Raymond is dealt this year, it'll be to upgrade the roster as you said... part of a package for JBo (if Florida actually trades him) or Kaberle could be options.

sgupca 01-26-2009 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggzy (Post 17543883)
Lol I meant realistically.

What areas do the Canucks need to improve? There goaltending I'm sure is fine. They seem to have good offense and defense. So I really don't know what they need.

Stillman + 2nd or 3rd would probably get it done.

sgupca 01-26-2009 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vector (Post 17543571)
In what way? They have almost opposite play styles.

What others have said. He doesn't really fit on the Canucks at this point in time. Great speed and occasional flashes of hands and understanding of the game. Needs a strong mentor who can show him how to use his linemates. He's "soft" but not afraid to get hurt. Surprisingly good in the defensive end and adept enough to play the PK. Reminds me of Lombardi before he was able to put it together.

I agree, he needs a mentor, to show him how to progress into his game. but i think his style is still very similar too Browns. He's fast and heads too the net. Isn't scared of getting run over to make a play.

Biggzy* 01-26-2009 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgupca (Post 17544091)
Stillman + 2nd or 3rd would probably get it done.

Hmm. When I first saw that I was saying to myself, "hell no." but I guess its not too bad. Stillmans been pretty good for us. If we were out of the playoff picture at the trade deadline I'd probably do it if it was the 3rd.

Peter Griffin 01-26-2009 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgupca (Post 17544091)
Stillman + 2nd or 3rd would probably get it done.

I don't think Gillis would be to interested in that to be honest. He's mentioned before he's not interested in older players with multiple years left on their deals and although Stillman has only two years left after this it could screw the Canucks up when they try to re-sign their key free agents. If Stillman was an UFA or had just one year left it would make more sense.

Fraction Jackson 01-26-2009 11:33 AM

Realistically, what would the Canucks want from Pittsburgh for him? He'd be worth taking a flier on, if the price is right.

NFITO 01-26-2009 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraction Jackson (Post 17544289)
Realistically, what would the Canucks want from Pittsburgh for him? He'd be worth taking a flier on, if the price is right.

Goligoski has been mentioned before... a 1 for 1 swap... IMO it could help both teams... both are young players with good upside that address a positional need for each team (canucks could use a puck moving dman, while Pittsburgh could use a top 6 winger).

voxel 01-26-2009 11:51 AM

I've always thought of Mason Raymond as Andrew Cogliano-lite - 2 years old(he's 23), similar stats, but with a better shot minus the willing to get hammered in high traffic areas.

Value-wise he'd fetch an older (vet with few years left) top-6 forward or early to mid-2nd pick.

doglover8891 01-26-2009 11:55 AM

if we ever want to trade raymond i think trade him to pitsburgh for satan and fedetenko and a 2 round pick

Peter Griffin 01-26-2009 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voxel (Post 17544519)
I've always thought of Mason Raymond as Andrew Cogliano-lite - 2 years old(he's 23), similar stats, but with a better shot minus the willing to get hammered in high traffic areas.

Value-wise he'd fetch an older (vet with few years left) top-6 forward or early to mid-2nd pick.

I think this is pretty reasonable.

Luck 6 01-26-2009 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin (Post 17544573)
I think this is pretty reasonable.

Ya? Raymond was a 2nd round pick... A lot of 2nd round picks don't even become NHL'ers... Trading Raymond for a 2nd round pick would be a complete wash...

We'd need to get a late first for him or else trading for draft picks would be a complete waste.

Peter Griffin 01-26-2009 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck 6 (Post 17545102)
Ya? Raymond was a 2nd round pick... A lot of 2nd round picks don't even become NHL'ers... Trading Raymond for a 2nd round pick would be a complete wash...

We'd need to get a late first for him or else trading for draft picks would be a complete waste.

I never said I'd trade Raymond for a 2nd, I just figure that is a good gauge of his value.


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