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Corgidequebec 03-06-2009 11:28 AM

Habs - Rangers Comparison
 
As a Habs fan I find some interesting comparisons about these two teams have done to improve (or not). Both have been struggling of late. Even with 4 wins in a row Montreal has looked pretty bad, with only great games by Halak preventing 3 of those wins from being loses.
In my humble opinion 3 elements needed to be addressed by both of these teams: Coaching (our lets just say Motivation), Size up front especially at center, and another piece of the puzzle on Defense.
The Rangers addressed all 3 by obtaining Torts, Nik Antropov, and Derick Morris. The Habs addressed nothing. My guess is this will cost Bob Gainey his job in the off season and we could see Patrick Roy as the teams Coach and GM. It will be interesting to see the fortunes of these two teams over the coming weeks, My prediction is the Rangers do some damage in the playoffs and Montreal now misses the playoffs.

marc88 03-06-2009 11:33 AM

although I believe Patrick will be involved in this organization in some kind of coaching position...i don't believe it will happen this soon..

and Gainey isn't going anywhere

Bill McNeal 03-06-2009 11:38 AM

Even with our recent struggles, the Rangers aren't exactly a team you want to model yourself after.

And given that they'll likely face one of Boston, New Jersey or Washington in the 1st round, they may have ended up giving up Kalinin, Prucha, Dawes and a 2nd round pick for a 1st round exit.

MM425 03-06-2009 11:40 AM

Did or did the Habs not accquire Mathieu Schneider?

And if you think Derick Morris (a marginal upgrade over the guy they traded in Kalinin) and Nik Antropov suddenly makes the Rangers contenders, your kidding yourself.

Jarmusch 03-06-2009 11:43 AM

The NYR are always buyers at the dead line, they bring a lot of UFA too with big money, Gomez, Redden, Drury, Naslund... are all overpaid.
But in the end, this team is always a slump country club.
The NYR organization is a joke.

MathMan 03-06-2009 11:44 AM

Patrick Roy. Seriously. :laugh: He can't coach a junior team without generating meltdowns, what makes anyone think he's capable of coaching a NHL team, especially the Habs? And isn't hiring an inexperienced head coach exactly one of the reason the Carbonneau hire is being bashed so much?

The question of whether Montreal needs to "address" coaching is very subjective, too, IMHO. Carbonneau, after all, has done extremely well last year with a roster that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs. He's doing less well this year, but for most of the year he had a lesser roster to work with as well. One needs to seriously consider the question of whether Carbo had his roster overachieving last season.

The Rangers have another thing the Canadiens doesn't have: long-term, expensive contracts to players that aren't worth their money. The Rangers will still be stuck with Gomez, Drury, Roszival and Redden after this deadline, and after this year. The Habs can easily re-tool in the offseason, and fix their roster for the long-term, whereas the Rangers are condemned to short-term spot fixes.

Sather is trying to save his job because he is the one who messed up the Rangers. Gainey has the Habs on a steady, if sometimes bumpy, road to improvement. Gainey elected to retain his youth rather than attempt spot fixes, whereas Sather is trying to save his job by dealing away youth (Dawes, Prucha, etc.) for short-term fixes. After the end of this season, the Habs will be in a better position than the Rangers -- and it remains to be seen how the rest of this season will play out.

Of the two, the one that has to worry about his job is not the Habs GM.

MonacoBlue 03-06-2009 11:51 AM

Adding small pieces like Morris (who has like 2 goals this year) is not going to help the Rangers that much. Change just for the sake of change is detrimental to a team. Schneider was identified as a player to target. Nobody else was.

Gainey isn't going anywhere. You're kidding yourself if you believe this. Believe it or not, the Habs do not own the rights to the Cup. Gainey has made all the right moves this year, but it's just not our year and, no, making changes will not fix this. The injuries, the scandal and just plain bad luck this year are not Bob Gainey's fault, and, if you really believe that ANY GM would have been able to "fix" the Habs for this year, then you're delusional. Ask yourself what Ken Holland would've done. Think of the Wings the last few years before the lockout. They were good, but they just didn't have "it." Did Holland go out and trade his whole team? Nope. He bided his time, knowing the right opportunity would come. My guess is that if you had Holland's job, you probably would've shipped Datsyuk because he was too "soft" for the playoffs.

People need to just calm down and accept the fact that the Habs are not stronger than NJ, San Jose, etc. BTW if you want to point to the Flames as a team that turned it around better than the Habs, consider the fact that the Flames have not had to deal with the same issues. It's been a relatively issue-free year for them with Kipper not playing like ass as he has for the last few years (which ruined their chances). When the Flames were not Cup contender material, did Sutter blow through his prospect pool to get players? Nope. The Flames have been after Jokinen for years. They've had to wait until now to get him. Patience is key.

Caseofcups* 03-06-2009 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corgidequebec (Post 18382151)
As a Habs fan I find some interesting comparisons about these two teams have done to improve (or not). Both have been struggling of late. Even with 4 wins in a row Montreal has looked pretty bad, with only great games by Halak preventing 3 of those wins from being loses.
In my humble opinion 3 elements needed to be addressed by both of these teams: Coaching (our lets just say Motivation), Size up front especially at center, and another piece of the puzzle on Defense.
The Rangers addressed all 3 by obtaining Torts, Nik Antropov, and Derick Morris. The Habs addressed nothing. My guess is this will cost Bob Gainey his job in the off season and we could see Patrick Roy as the teams Coach and GM. It will be interesting to see the fortunes of these two teams over the coming weeks, My prediction is the Rangers do some damage in the playoffs and Montreal now misses the playoffs.

Drek Morris was told to stay home until a deal could be made for him, (great guy to have on your team, Nik Antropov was ripped by burke in the media a mere two weeks ago. I'll pass on both thank you.)

Caseofcups* 03-06-2009 12:00 PM

Jokinen is on his third team in two years!! Thanks but no thanks.

CGG 03-06-2009 12:21 PM

I don't even think the Rangers improved themselves for THIS season with the moves they made at the deadline. I'd take Kalinin, Prucha and Dawes over Antropov and an expired Derek Morris, thank you very much. Add in some serious holes that this creates in the off season, and a complete lack of cap space with long term ridiculous contracts to Gomez, Drury and Redden in a decreasing cap world, and the Rangers are headed in the wrong direction. Not to mention Avery for 3 more ugly years. Terrible example for a team the Habs should have followed.

NYROrtsFan 03-06-2009 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch (Post 18382392)
The NYR are always buyers at the dead line, they bring a lot of UFA too with big money, Gomez, Redden, Drury, Naslund... are all overpaid.
But in the end, this team is always a slump country club.
The NYR organization is a joke.

You are about 5 years too late with the above argument.

Ozymandias 03-06-2009 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathMan (Post 18382399)
Patrick Roy. Seriously. :laugh: He can't coach a junior team without generating meltdowns, what makes anyone think he's capable of coaching a NHL team, especially the Habs? And isn't hiring an inexperienced head coach exactly one of the reason the Carbonneau hire is being bashed so much?

The question of whether Montreal needs to "address" coaching is very subjective, too, IMHO. Carbonneau, after all, has done extremely well last year with a roster that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs. He's doing less well this year, but for most of the year he had a lesser roster to work with as well. One needs to seriously consider the question of whether Carbo had his roster overachieving last season.

The Rangers have another thing the Canadiens doesn't have: long-term, expensive contracts to players that aren't worth their money. The Rangers will still be stuck with Gomez, Drury, Roszival and Redden after this deadline, and after this year. The Habs can easily re-tool in the offseason, and fix their roster for the long-term, whereas the Rangers are condemned to short-term spot fixes.

Sather is trying to save his job because he is the one who messed up the Rangers. Gainey has the Habs on a steady, if sometimes bumpy, road to improvement. Gainey elected to retain his youth rather than attempt spot fixes, whereas Sather is trying to save his job by dealing away youth (Dawes, Prucha, etc.) for short-term fixes. After the end of this season, the Habs will be in a better position than the Rangers -- and it remains to be seen how the rest of this season will play out.

Of the two, the one that has to worry about his job is not the Habs GM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MONACOBLUE (Post 18382525)
Adding small pieces like Morris (who has like 2 goals this year) is not going to help the Rangers that much. Change just for the sake of change is detrimental to a team. Schneider was identified as a player to target. Nobody else was.

Gainey isn't going anywhere. You're kidding yourself if you believe this. Believe it or not, the Habs do not own the rights to the Cup. Gainey has made all the right moves this year, but it's just not our year and, no, making changes will not fix this. The injuries, the scandal and just plain bad luck this year are not Bob Gainey's fault, and, if you really believe that ANY GM would have been able to "fix" the Habs for this year, then you're delusional. Ask yourself what Ken Holland would've done. Think of the Wings the last few years before the lockout. They were good, but they just didn't have "it." Did Holland go out and trade his whole team? Nope. He bided his time, knowing the right opportunity would come. My guess is that if you had Holland's job, you probably would've shipped Datsyuk because he was too "soft" for the playoffs.

People need to just calm down and accept the fact that the Habs are not stronger than NJ, San Jose, etc. BTW if you want to point to the Flames as a team that turned it around better than the Habs, consider the fact that the Flames have not had to deal with the same issues. It's been a relatively issue-free year for them with Kipper not playing like ass as he has for the last few years (which ruined their chances). When the Flames were not Cup contender material, did Sutter blow through his prospect pool to get players? Nope. The Flames have been after Jokinen for years. They've had to wait until now to get him. Patience is key.


Those are the two best comments of this thread and summarize my own thoughts to the t. Patience is the key.

People often criticize Gainey because the Habs don't make it pass the 2nd round (which is an easy excuse that doesn't stand scrutiny), but before Gainey came here, people tend to forget that we made the playoffs only once in over the span of 5 to 10 seasons. Now the team got way better than it was pre-2003-2004, it is improving, pieces are being added, and less we forget, we have many many young players. We are now making the playoffs almost every season since Gainey came in. Now the next step for the next few years will be to get this team to the next level, and yes Gainey is the man for the job. The irrational and illogical haters of Gainey think a team like the Habs were in 2002-2003 would be easy to turn around and transform into a contender. That just shows how little they know. BG and GC aren't going anywhere. No GM is perfect, they all make mistakes and Gainey isn't an exception, but to think he is not doing a good job with the tough position he has in Montreal (like the reluctance of elite UFAs to come here in large part due to our zealous media) is just plain dumb.

Sir Jacques Demers 03-06-2009 01:30 PM

between 2 similar teams the goaltending usually makes the difference. I'd have to vote Lundqvist over Price/Halak.

Having said that, the habs are very capable of beating the rangers.

maci4life 03-06-2009 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caseofcups (Post 18382698)
Jokinen is on his third team in two years!! Thanks but no thanks.


You're talking about the Jolkinen that scored 2 goals for the flames in his first game, right?

MathMan 03-06-2009 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Jacques Demers (Post 18384191)
Having said that, the habs are very capable of beating the rangers.

The Habs have shellacked the Rangers this year. Their D has been completely incapable of handling speed, and that's why the Sabres tend to murder them as well. Meanwhile Renney's trapping style has been ineffective at generating offense.

We'll see if this changes with Tortorella at the helm.

Bill McNeal 03-06-2009 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maci4life (Post 18385364)
You're talking about the Jolkinen that scored 2 goals for the flames in his first game, right?

I was in favor of acquiring Jokinen but that's a weak argument.

The two main issues that detractors have with Jokinen are his playoff inexperience and his supposed locker room issues, neither of which can be adequately measured until this post-season at the earliest.

I think they're overblown myself, but we'll see.

CPrice 03-06-2009 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch (Post 18382392)
The NYR are always buyers at the dead line, they bring a lot of UFA too with big money, Gomez, Redden, Drury, Naslund... are all overpaid.
But in the end, this team is always a slump country club.
The NYR organization is a joke.

I agree, this is no team to model yourself after. I don't think there much like Montreal at all, Montreal gets players through the draft and NY looks to the UFA market.

maci4life 03-06-2009 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogurt (Post 18385419)
I was in favor of acquiring Jokinen but that's a weak argument.

The two main issues that detractors have with Jokinen are his playoff inexperience and his supposed locker room issues, neither of which can be adequately measured until this post-season at the earliest.

I think they're overblown myself, but we'll see.

jolkinen would have been my personal plan c if all else failed, but i"m still at the vinny or bust stage.

so i wouldn't really want oli, i was just having fun :)

TheCH* 03-06-2009 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPrice (Post 18385442)
I agree, this is no team to model yourself after. I don't think there much like Montreal at all, Montreal gets players through the draft and NY looks to the UFA market.

They do it because they can, players want to go there.

If Bob had a choice, he would look to the UFA market as well as seen by his several attempts over the last few years.

So you can't really knock the rangers for successfully bringing in many of the same UFA's our habs have went after..

CPrice 03-06-2009 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCH (Post 18386639)
They do it because they can, players want to go there.

If Bob had a choice, he would look to the UFA market as well as seen by his several attempts over the last few years.

So you can't really knock the rangers for successfully bringing in many of the same UFA's our habs have went after..

Yes, players want to play there that is true. But look at the salaries, thats the real reason they are getting the UFA's. They probably have 3 of the most top 10 overpaid players in the league.

Astroboy 03-06-2009 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch (Post 18382392)
The NYR are always buyers at the dead line, they bring a lot of UFA too with big money, Gomez, Redden, Drury, Naslund... are all overpaid.
But in the end, this team is always a slump country club.
The NYR organization is a joke.

It almost seems like the cap does not apply to the rangers....they always seem to find ways to have lots of cash to sign whoever! What gives?

Monctonscout 03-06-2009 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corgidequebec (Post 18382151)
As a Habs fan I find some interesting comparisons about these two teams have done to improve (or not). Both have been struggling of late. Even with 4 wins in a row Montreal has looked pretty bad, with only great games by Halak preventing 3 of those wins from being loses.
In my humble opinion 3 elements needed to be addressed by both of these teams: Coaching (our lets just say Motivation), Size up front especially at center, and another piece of the puzzle on Defense.
The Rangers addressed all 3 by obtaining Torts, Nik Antropov, and Derick Morris. The Habs addressed nothing. My guess is this will cost Bob Gainey his job in the off season and we could see Patrick Roy as the teams Coach and GM. It will be interesting to see the fortunes of these two teams over the coming weeks, My prediction is the Rangers do some damage in the playoffs and Montreal now misses the playoffs.


Patrick Roy? :shakehead

You must not follow junior hockey.

Stanley Foobrick 03-06-2009 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch (Post 18382392)
The NYR are always buyers at the dead line, they bring a lot of UFA too with big money, Gomez, Redden, Drury, Naslund... are all overpaid.
But in the end, this team is always a slump country club.
The NYR organization is a joke.

Montreal Canadiens last Cup------- 93
New York Rangers last Cup--------- 94

........ let's all laugh together.

Corgidequebec 03-08-2009 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch (Post 18382392)
The NYR are always buyers at the dead line, they bring a lot of UFA too with big money, Gomez, Redden, Drury, Naslund... are all overpaid.
But in the end, this team is always a slump country club.
The NYR organization is a joke.

and we're not.

Corgidequebec 03-08-2009 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carey Price (Post 18388468)
Patrick Roy? :shakehead

You must not follow junior hockey.


No, you must not follow Jr hockey...look at the Remparts record this season, and he's won a Mem Cup. Your statment makes ZERO sense.

The point was not to compare Apples and Oranges, our who is better, but to the actions taken (obviously the Rangers felt these moves make their team better, even if they don't) and what their results will be.

Before I have to see another Rangers suck, Go Habs thread or a Patrick Roy is a bad coach thread.


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