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-   -   Value of: Vishnovsky or Gilbert to the Coyotes (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=620306)

davegagnerskid 03-17-2009 11:04 AM

Vishnovsky or Gilbert to the Coyotes
 
Looking at the Coyotes blueline and their cap position makes me wonder if they wouldn't want a bonafide top d-man on there back end. It's a big cap hit, but with Jovo's deal finishing up soon I figure that Pheonix could absorb the money.

The Oilers could handle to clear some cap space and as much as I'd hate to part with our Vish I think he just may be the odd man ou. I tossed in Gilbert's name in case some would prefer a younger model with a cheaper Cap hit.

Oil needs:

Defensive center with size - Preferably Hanzal although I know he comes with a high regard from a Coyotes perspective.

Energy player that comes with an affordable contract and can play. I'm thinking Scotty Upshall who always been one of my favorites.

Anyways, discuss.

NFITO 03-17-2009 11:29 AM

I don't see players like this (on reasonably large contracts) having much value at all until FA is done... that's the time when teams will be looking for such options, when they lose out on better and/or more affordable FA - depending on how the market shapes up.

at this point, if I'm Phoenix, I'd hold on to that cap space and see what FA can offer... after that period, depending on how much cap space (and team budget) is left over, that's only when you'd consider such a move that requires you to give up any thing of value for another asset.

By making a trade before that period, all you do is lose your own options, while giving another team (like Edmonton) more cap space to target players that you may have wanted otherwise.

davegagnerskid 03-17-2009 11:33 AM

I see what your saying, but if there is a another market that players avoid more than Edmonton it just may be Phoenix. I'm thinking that may look to trade sometime this summer and Edmonton has a lot of blueliners that teams looking to improve their offense from the backend may consider.

As for the contract and term of Vish's deal. It's it's not a overpayment or a anchor by any means. The only reason I throw it out there s because I think he would be a easy sale for another team.

Roof Daddy 03-17-2009 12:36 PM

Well, these are a list of offensive Dmen likely available come July 1st

JBo
Zubov
Schneider
Spacek
Seidenberg
Aucoin
MA Bergeron
Oduya
Leopold
Blake
Murphy

Obviously JBo is the prize UFA. After that, the only guys who are in the same calibre as Vis are old as dirt (Zubov - likely to end up back in DAL, Blake and Schneider). The other players don't even come close (Spacek the closest of the bunch, and he's 35). And much like Zubie, Blake and Schneider are going to want to play for a sure playoff team rather than a maybe like PHX.

These are the teams I think are desperate for a puck mover
ATL
BUF
CBJ
FLA
NJD
PHX

Of those teams I could see NJ, ATL and CBJ being the most interested. I think PHX has the largest money problems and wouldn't be as interested, likely hoping to hit a homerun with youth (Ahnelov).

The Feckless Puck 03-17-2009 12:51 PM

With teams in trouble with the cap, and assuming the Coyotes get some breathing room financially, Phoenix will be sitting pretty in the off-season. We're not going to be mortgaging talented young players like Hanzal or Upshall without a damned good offer on the table.

It also depends on what guys like Goncharov are going to decide about coming over to North America and where we pick in the draft. Obviously if we are in Hedman territory the value of a D-man trade goes down significantly.

danishh 03-17-2009 12:53 PM

the coyotes are the absolute last team to be considering adding these types of salaries. If they wanted a d-man from edmonton, i could see them inquiring about grebs or smid.

davegagnerskid 03-17-2009 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danishh (Post 18572033)
the coyotes are the absolute last team to be considering adding these types of salaries. If they wanted a d-man from edmonton, i could see them inquiring about grebs or smid.

What's the cap floor looking like?

PDO 03-17-2009 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danishh (Post 18572033)
the coyotes are the absolute last team to be considering adding these types of salaries. If they wanted a d-man from edmonton, i could see them inquiring about grebs or smid.

Grebeshkov is an RFA and will be looking for a Gilbert-esque contract.

rt 03-17-2009 01:49 PM

There is a reason why we had to trade Derek Morris. That said, if we get a new owner by the time the draft rolls around, perhaps there could be some discussion, at that point. Even so, throwing Hanzal's name into the mix is shooting for the moon in a big, big way. That's a pure pipedream. If you have too many high-priced puck-movers in Souray, Vishnovsky, Gilbert, and soon to be Grebeshkov, and you want to clear some salary, I imagine we'd offer Calgary's first rounder, or something similar, assuming we have new ownership. You aren't getting Hanzal, or anything close to that, though. The kid has been our second best forward, all year long.

davegagnerskid 03-17-2009 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rt (Post 18572710)
There is a reason why we had to trade Derek Morris. That said, if we get a new owner by the time the draft rolls around, perhaps there could be some discussion, at that point. Even so, throwing Hanzal's name into the mix is shooting for the moon in a big, big way. That's a pure pipedream. If you have too many high-priced puck-movers in Souray, Vishnovsky, Gilbert, and soon to be Grebeshkov, and you want to clear some salary, I imagine we'd offer Calgary's first rounder, or something similar, assuming we have new ownership. You aren't getting Hanzal, or anything close to that, though. The kid has been our second best forward, all year long.

I didn't think Yotes fans would be too keen on moving Hanzal, but please never mention Derek Morris and Lubomir Visnovsky in the same breath again.;)

rt 03-17-2009 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davegagnerskid (Post 18573542)
I didn't think Yotes fans would be too keen on moving Hanzal, but please never mention Derek Morris and Lubomir Visnovsky in the same breath again.;)

The point was that we couldn't offer Morris more than one year. Lubo and Gilbert are both signed to big long deals.

misfit 03-17-2009 03:10 PM

I'm sure the Oilers could get a defensive center and an energy player without giving up a top pairing defenseman.

Edmonton can afford to keep their defensemen, not to mention Gilbert and Visnovsky are their two most important ones.

Andrew B 03-17-2009 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misfit (Post 18573882)
I'm sure the Oilers could get a defensive center and an energy player without giving up a top pairing defenseman.

Edmonton can afford to keep their defensemen, not to mention Gilbert and Visnovsky are their two most important ones.


Grebeshkov > Gilbert

Peter Sidorkiewicz 03-17-2009 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roof Daddy (Post 18571783)
Well, these are a list of offensive Dmen likely available come July 1st

JBo
Zubov
Schneider
Spacek
Seidenberg
Aucoin
MA Bergeron
Oduya
Leopold
Blake
Murphy

Obviously JBo is the prize UFA. After that, the only guys who are in the same calibre as Vis are old as dirt (Zubov - likely to end up back in DAL, Blake and Schneider). The other players don't even come close (Spacek the closest of the bunch, and he's 35). And much like Zubie, Blake and Schneider are going to want to play for a sure playoff team rather than a maybe like PHX.

These are the teams I think are desperate for a puck mover
ATL
BUF
CBJ
FLA
NJD
PHX

Of those teams I could see NJ, ATL and CBJ being the most interested. I think PHX has the largest money problems and wouldn't be as interested, likely hoping to hit a homerun with youth (Ahnelov).

Atlanta doesn't need another defenceman. Hainsey has done well this year and Enstrom and Bogosian have been very good.

misfit 03-17-2009 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew B (Post 18574291)
Grebeshkov > Gilbert

Very much an arguable point (and for the record, I'd argue that you're wrong as well). And very much moot as well, since the Oilers don't have to shed any salary. And even if they did, trading one of your best players is not a smart way to do it.

Fourier 03-17-2009 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davegagnerskid (Post 18572294)
What's the cap floor looking like?

My guess would be $38-40M. Phoenix will have to add salary to avoid being below the floor next year . This is particaularly true if their young guys don't make their bonuses. Right now, excluding bonuses thay are at about $28M on 15 contracts. However, they may want to do this with short term (1 yr) deals.

Roof Daddy 03-17-2009 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Sidorkiewicz (Post 18574370)
Atlanta doesn't need another defenceman. Hainsey has done well this year and Enstrom and Bogosian have been very good.

Really? I mean, I'm not trying to downplay the 3 you mentioned as Hainsey has been a nice surprise, Enstrom - despite lesser numbers this year - has stilled looked good moving the puck, and Bogo is no doubt going to be a beast in another couple years... but Vis is better than all those guys (at least right now), but ATL doesn't need him.

OK

Hemskyfanboy83 03-17-2009 09:50 PM

I can't for the life of me understand why Visnvosky keeps coming up in these proposals.

If we need to move a dman I would move Souray or Gilbert.

I understand that people like Souray because he fights but he is a much worse player than Visnovsky.

Gilbert just sucks

Visnovsky is our best player and we need to keep him if we are serious about making the playoffs.

Brian28 03-17-2009 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 (Post 18583676)
I can't for the life of me understand why Visnvosky keeps coming up in these proposals.

If we need to move a dman I would move Souray or Gilbert.

I understand that people like Souray because he fights but he is a much worse player than Visnovsky.

Gilbert just sucks

Visnovsky is our best player and we need to keep him if we are serious about making the playoffs.

People like Souray because of all he brings to the table...not just the fighting. He's been a stable presence on the backend. He provides a lot of grit and determination to the team. Souray should be the captain over Moreau as they both provide leadership and grit, but Souray's on the ice for much more of the game. Also can't forget one of the most powerful shots in the NHL. I agree Visnovsky is a better d-man, but Souray brings more to the Oilers than fighting.

davegagnerskid 03-18-2009 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misfit (Post 18575786)
Very much an arguable point (and for the record, I'd argue that you're wrong as well). And very much moot as well, since the Oilers don't have to shed any salary. And even if they did, trading one of your best players is not a smart way to do it.


Last nights game against St.Louis was case and point on the two players. Gilbert once again played sub par, while Grebs played a monster of a game and I doubt that he's a 100% healthy yet. That outlet pass to Hemsky was sick and we seem to see that once a game!

I just recall the Oilers after we traded Pronger and the importance of the stretch pass.

misfit 03-18-2009 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davegagnerskid (Post 18593800)
Last nights game against St.Louis was case and point on the two players. Gilbert once again played sub par, while Grebs played a monster of a game and I doubt that he's a 100% healthy yet. That outlet pass to Hemsky was sick and we seem to see that once a game!

I just recall the Oilers after we traded Pronger and the importance of the stretch pass.

First of all, while Grebeshkov was great last night, Gilbert was far from sub-par, and his first pass is as good as anyone's. I still don't get why you're still trying to argue this point though, as it doesn't matter. I'll even concede to your point of view. Grebeshkov is better. Now that we've determined that, how does it make trading Gilbert a necessary or even wise move?

thadd 03-18-2009 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PDO (Post 18572358)
Grebeshkov is an RFA and will be looking for a Gilbert-esque contract.

Gilbert gets 4 and Grebs won't be able to get more than 3mill because of the cap problems around the league.

thadd 03-18-2009 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davegagnerskid (Post 18570506)
Looking at the Coyotes blueline and their cap position makes me wonder if they wouldn't want a bonafide top d-man on there back end. It's a big cap hit, but with Jovo's deal finishing up soon I figure that Pheonix could absorb the money.

The Oilers could handle to clear some cap space and as much as I'd hate to part with our Vish I think he just may be the odd man ou. I tossed in Gilbert's name in case some would prefer a younger model with a cheaper Cap hit.

Oil needs:

Defensive center with size - Preferably Hanzal although I know he comes with a high regard from a Coyotes perspective.

Energy player that comes with an affordable contract and can play. I'm thinking Scotty Upshall who always been one of my favorites.

Anyways, discuss.

If Edmonton trades Lubo They'll want a forward who can be expected to pot 30 goals and a prospect or draft pick.

k1llua 03-18-2009 11:14 PM

It's going to take way more than either of those players to make dropping Hanzal even close to palatable. The guy is becoming Thornton's boogey man. Where ever he goes, Hanzal is there. And, Joe hates it. He'll be an elite defensive center with the ability to out up 50-60 points a year.

rigger 03-19-2009 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roof Daddy (Post 18571783)
Well, these are a list of offensive Dmen likely available come July 1st

JBo
Zubov
Schneider
Spacek
Seidenberg
Aucoin
MA Bergeron
Oduya
Leopold
Blake
Murphy

These are the teams I think are desperate for a puck mover
ATL
BUF
CBJ
FLA
NJD
PHX

Of those teams I could see NJ, ATL and CBJ being the most interested. I think PHX has the largest money problems and wouldn't be as interested, likely hoping to hit a homerun with youth (Ahnelov).

I bolded the players who can fit into 20 minute a night roles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1llua (Post 18601702)
It's going to take way more than either of those players to make dropping Hanzal even close to palatable. The guy is becoming Thornton's boogey man. Where ever he goes, Hanzal is there. And, Joe hates it. He'll be an elite defensive center with the ability to out up 50-60 points a year.

So your view of Hanzal is a Michael Handzus? I would think that Gilbert could fetch Handzus in a trade.


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