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VanIslander 03-29-2009 06:54 PM

ATD10/MLD10/AAA10/Double-A The Undrafted Players Thread (arguably Top-1000 All Time)
 
672 guys were selected in the main ATD10 draft
288 selected in the ML10 draft
216 selected in the AAA10 draft
120 selected in the Double-A draft
and a couple of add/drops

1298 in total.

That presumably includes the best 1000 of all time.

And yet... there may be great players undrafted. What players and coaches were overlooked in the #10 ATD, MLD, AAA and Double-A drafts?

Who could arguably have been a depth pick on a main ATD team or a call-up quality guy if had been selected in the MLD?

Avoid listing scrubs and players having no business on at least a MLD team if not late round ATD selection (only mention career minor leaguers if there's a case to be made that a guy was one of the best in any league but just happened to play in that lower league). There might be Top-1000 players out there undrafted, especially among role players like enforcers, penalty killers, defensive defensemen, etc. Let's list some of them. State why it'd be a good pick. Give some stats or description, something. Don't just drop a name.

UNDRAFTED GREATS OF ALL TIME

FORWARDS

Sergei Yashin
Michal Pivonka
Radek Dvorak
Rob Zamuner
Don Gallinger
Art Jones
Milan Marcetta
Marco Sturm
Ian Laperriere
Daymond Langkow
Petr Nedved
Dave Hannan
Martin Rucinsky
Forbes Kennedy
Ab DeMarco

DEFENSEMEN

Joel Quenneville
Zarley Zalapski

GOALTENDERS

Wayne Stephenson
Ken Campbell

COACHES


AND:

Forwards:
Alexander Skvortsov
Viktor Polupanov
Tommy Williams
Harry Meeking
Jimmy Carson
Sergei Svetlov
Billy Harris
Pete Babando
Alexander Uvarov
Gerry Couture
Archie Briden
Vladimir Golikov
Alexander Golikov
Ken Smith
Alexander Martynyuk
Adam Brown
Michal Handzus
Ken Schinkel
Pete Horeck
Steve Rucchin
Mike Knuble
Alexander Kozhevnikov
Parker MacDonald
Guy Charron
Jiri Lala
Alex Kaleta
Robert Lang
Jonathan Cheechoo
Val Fonteyne
Rudy Migay
Bill Hicke
Baldy Cotton
Jiri Hrdina
Colin Patterson
Larry Popein

Defensemen:
Igor Stelnov
Keith Carney
Zarley Zalapski
Richard Matvichuk
Shawn Chambers
Scott Hannan
Vladimir Brezhnev
Jack Portland
Kent Douglas
Dana Murzyn
Paul Cavallini
Dan McGillis
Randy Manery
Jean Potvin
Dmitri Mironov
Boris Mironov
Robert Picard
John McKinnon
Marek Zidlicky

Goalies:
Reggie Lemelin
Daren Puppa
Earl Robertson
Hec Fowler
Roman Cechmanek
Alexander Sidelnikov
Ken Wregget
Sergei Mylnikov
Wayne Stephenson

Spares:
D/LW Wilf Loughlin
RW/D Yuri Krylov
D/RW Valeri Nitikin

Coaches:
Emile Francis
Marc Crawford
Jacques Martin

VanIslander 03-29-2009 06:56 PM

I can think of a few....

Left winger Sergei Yashin scored 35 goals on the Soviet national team between 1982-89, winning two world championships, an Olympic gold and played in the 1984 Canada Cup.

http://visualrian.com/storage/Previe.../58/014558.jpg

----------

6'2 fast, skilled center Michal Pivonka was a defensively-responsible passing pivot who scored 418 assists, 599 points in 825 NHL games, twice leading the Capitals in scoring; 1991–92 (23G, 57A, 80P) and 1995–96 (16G, 65A, 81P). he scored 55 playoff points in 95 NHL post-season games including 13 in 14 games in the 1988 playoffs.

http://cdn.nhl.com/capitals/bc/image...os/Pivonka.jpg
Capitals all-time assists leader

Quote:

...strong skating, excellent passing, and willingness to play physically...
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=11296

seventieslord 03-29-2009 07:05 PM

I move that any selection in this thread needs to be backed up with evidence and "seconded" by another member, to be added to the list.

Congrats to everyone so far for not being tempted to name some defensemen just for playing 1000+ games or mediocre multiple cup winners.

seventieslord 03-29-2009 07:18 PM

I'd like to post an entire 24-man roster over the course of two days.

VanIslander 03-29-2009 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 18773529)
Congrats to everyone so far for not being tempted to name some defensemen just for playing 1000+ games or mediocre multiple cup winners.

I was sure glad to see no one drafted Bryan Marchment (1000+ game below average 5/6 NHLer in a 32-team league), Cory Stillman (multiple cups, one decent postseason offensively but really a bonehead in terms of hockey sense and totally lost in any all-time competition), Rob Brown (slow, bad attitute, had a great sniper release), Paul Ysebaert (led NHL in +/- one season but really was at best average at what he did), Richard trophy winner Jonathan Cheechoo (whom some GMs would've wanted to jump on a couple of years ago, like Svatos was MLD drafted a couple of years back) and 3-year decent Jeff O’Neill.

chaosrevolver 03-29-2009 07:30 PM

Joe Murphy was on my AA team.

G: Wayne Stephenson
Quote:

Originally Posted by papershoes
Spent the majority of his young career with the Canadian National Team playing in several tournaments such as the World Championships in both 1967 and 1969, as well as the 1968 Olympics where he won a bronze medal. Represented the Flyers at the NHL All-Star Game in both 1976 and 1978. In 328 games, Stephenson recorded 146 wins and 14 shutouts, including 40 wins in the 1975-76 season, winning the Stanley Cup in 1975.

D: Joel Quenneville
Quote:

Originally Posted by papershoes
Joel survived through 13 NHL seasons through intelligence and dependability and played a conservative and unspectacular defensive game at the NHL level, always making the safe play. Twice named the Whalers most valuable defenseman (1985 and 1986) he played a big role in helping Hartford win the Adams Division championship in 1987. He scored 54 goals and 190 points in 803 games, but his true worth was helping to develop young defensemen and quietly taking care of his own end.

F: Radek Dvorak
Quote:

Originally Posted by Legends of Hockey
Radek Dvorak played his junior hockey for MC Budejovice in the Czech Republic beginning in 1993-94 and went to play seasons with the team before making his North American and NHL debut in 1995-96.

After missing the 1995 World Junior Championships with an injury, Dvorak helped his country win gold at the Junior Four Nations Tournament in February 1995. He led the tournament with eight points in three games and was named the Best Forward.

Dvorak was selected tenth overall in the 1995 NHL Entry Draft by the Florida Panthers and made his NHL debut that season while still just 18-years of age, helping the Panthers improve 46 points and make the playoffs for the first time in franchise history. In the playoffs, the Panthers won the Prince of Wales Trophy before losing in the Stanley Cup finals to the Colorado Avalanche.

By 1998-99, Dvorak was up to 43 points and had a team-high four short-handed goals. In 1999-2000, he joined the New York Rangers after 35 games with the Panthers in a three-team deal that also involved the San Jose Sharks. He finished the season with 18 goals and 50 points. In 2000-01, Dvorak played all 82 games with the Rangers and scored 67 points, good enough for fourth on the team.

In 2001-02 Dvorak's point total dipped and he was subsequently dealt to the Edmonton Oilers at the trading deadline in March of 2003. Upon his arrival with the Oilers, Dvorak has been one of the teams most productive forwards.

In the 2005-06 playoffs Dvorak would sit out of a hand full of games due to injury before returing to the Oiler lineup for the playoffs. The Oilers would lose in seven hard fought games to the Carolina Hurricanes, and Dvorak would sign with the St. Louis Blues in the off-season.

In St. Louis, Dvorak competed in all 82 games of the 2006-07 NHL regular season, recording 10 goals and 27 assist on a struggling Blues team. Dvorak's stint in St. Louis last only one season after the Florida Panthers signed him as a free agent in the summer of 2007.

On the international stage Dvorak has represented his homeland at the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, the 2004 World Cup of Hockey and is a three-time member of its World Championship team (1999, 2001, 2004 and 2005).


chaosrevolver 03-29-2009 07:39 PM

LW: Rob Zamuner
Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord
One of the best defensive forwards of the late 1990's. Received selke votes and was selected as a forward to Canada's 1998 olympic squad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Zaumner was the best defensive LW left on my list. I wouldn't pick a defensive specialist in this, though. He was probably one of the top five or so defensive forwards in the league from 1993 to 1998, but he was shafted in the Selke voting because that's when voters were looking at an offensive player who backchecks. (The 1995-96 Selke vote might be the biggest joke for any award in NHL history). Jere Lehtinen and Mike Peca would have never won their Selkes if they had to face those voting standards.


hfboardsuser 03-29-2009 07:51 PM

He only played five seasons, but I'm extremely surprised no one could have found a use for C Don Gallinger.

-30+ points in every full season he played.
-Led '46 Bruins in scoring (17-23-40 in 50 games)
-Led '48 Bruins in assists (21 in 54 games)

Of course, the life-time ban knocked him out of the game at 22, but there's no question he could have been a superstar.

In terms of minor league domination, it's hard not to mention C Art Jones

-13 30+ goal seasons in the WHL.
-Six-time 100 point scorer in the WHL.
-145 points in 140 WHL playoff games.
-Lead the league in scoring five seasons in a row.
-Won 3 Lester Patrick Cups.
-WHL record, points in a season (127)

Finally, A personal favorite of mine in the minor league excellence + NHL playoff one-year wonder category is C Milan Marcetta

-6'1, 185 lbs. The guy was absolutely ripped- a bull on skates.
-24th all-time in goals in the WHL. He did it in just six full seasons, and likely would be up there if he hadn't played in about a million different leagues during his 17-year career

Career totals: 393 goals and 915 points in 1058 games between the WHL, AHL, EPHL, CPHL, CHL and NHL.

However, two things make him notable.

-Became the first of two players- along with Aut Erickson- to win the Cup without playing in the playoffs as a member of the Leafs.

-Scored 14 points in 14 games for the Minnesota North Stars during the 1968 playoffs, and scored the OT winner in Game 6 of the first round to force Game 7, which the Stars would go on to win.

**** ******** mentions him in his book as someone he played poker with often.

Edit: Another guy I'd like to nominate is Ken 'The Shutout King' Campbell:

"Ken Campbell had to be one of the best Regina Pats' goaltenders in that area. Jock Campbell said, "Ken came from a farming family at Lumsden, of 10 children, 3 boys, Ken was the youngest." He started his hockey career in Regina, coming up through the Crescent Midget team, graduated to the Juvenile Caps, then played for the Junior "B" Argos. In the 1929-30 season, at the age of 17 and only 140 pounds, he joined the Regina Pats when the Argos and Pats amalgamated.

While playing for the Regina Pats from 1929-30 to 1931-32 season, he had an incredible record as follows:

Played in 39 exhibition games - 15 shutouts - (7 Jr.; 1 Int.; 7 Sr.)
Played in 11 league games - 6 shutouts
Played in 24 play-off games - 17 shutouts
Played in 74 total games - 38 shutouts

The following year, 1932-33, Ken played senior hockey with the Regina Aces in the Southern Sskatchewan League and Interleague play against the North League. he shared duties with Any Young. Ken played in 14 league and play-off games, 875 minutes played, 18 goals against, 5 shutouts, and had an average of 1.23.

Saskatchewan Sports Hall of Fame Curator Jacqueline Campbell's, Great Grandfather was Ken Campbell. Her father, Jock Campbell stated, "In 1935-36 season Ken and Regina Pats teammate, Ralph Redding, both went west and got jobs with "Kimico" at Kimberley. They both played for the Kimberley Dynamiters." Kimberley played in the West Kootenay Senior League with the well-known Trail Smoke Eaters until the 1939-40 season. ken played in 50 league and play-off games, 3,000 minutes played, 193 goals against, 3 shutouts, and had an average of 3.86. The following sesason, 1941-42, he was the head coach of the Dynamiters. The club went onto win the League Championship, winning the "Savage Cup".

The Dynamiters reached the very pinnacle of the hockey world in 1937, only five years and two months after the team was first formed. The Dynamiters claimed the Allan Cup (emblematic of senior hockey supremacy in Canada) in 1936, defeating the Sudbury Falcons in two straight games, 2-0 and 4-3. the following season, the Allan Cup Championship was a busy one for the boys from Kimberley. having qualified the previous year, the Dynamiters played 14 exhibition games across Canada with a 62-game tour of Europe.

They eventually ending up in London, England, the site of the 1937 World Ice Hockey Championships which were hosted by the British Ice Hockey Association. At the time, Great Britain was the reigning European, Olympic and World Ice Hockey Champions. However it was the Dynamiters who dominated the Championship tournament as they swepy aside Great Britain and everyone else who got in their way. The Dynamiters were unbeaten in nine games at the tournament, outscoring their opponents by a margin of 60-4. Their only loses were English Teams compiled of Canadian players. Netminder Ken Campbell registered 6 shutouts in the nine games played.

Following the world championship, Campbell continued to stone the opposition in Budapect, Berne, and Zurich, as the Dynamiters won 27 of 29 games with 1 tie. They out scored their
opposition, the best in the world 144-32."

-Ron Johnston

One thing that article doesn't mention is why Campbell played all those games during Kimberley's Euro tour.

The Dynamiters had a perfectly serviceable goaltender in Eric 'Swede' Hornquist. However, while preparing to board the ship to Europe in Halifax, a taxi containing Hornquist and two other Dynamiters was involved in a collision with a streetcar. Hornquist was the worst-hurt of the bunch, and as a result, the Dynamiters had just one goalie during the Eurotour and World Championships- Campbell. He played 67+ games in a row.

VanIslander 03-29-2009 08:03 PM

Here's a trio of active NHLers who're often underrated and overlooked in their exceptional skills

11-year NHL veteran left winger Marco Sturm quietly excelled in San Jose and now Boston, a seven time 20+ goal scoring defensive-minded role player who's always IN the game

http://www.freewebs.com/customsports...turm-Cover.jpg

Quote:

Has excellent speed and puck-handling skills. Possesses great hockey sense and sees the ice very well. His speed makes him a special-teams weapon.
http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...player.cgi?137

Quote:

A notoriously strong skater, he is often referred to as "the fastest German on ice." His forays into the offensive zone are known as the "blitzkrieg". In the 1999 All-star game, Marco Sturm had the second best time to Peter Bondra in the fastest skater competition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Sturm

----------------

Speedy centre/right winger Ian Laperriere is another great role player who languished in California for much of his 16-year NHL career, playing in 994 NHL games (to date), with 100+ PIM in 11 of his last 12 seasons (including this one); 6'1 200 lbs Lappy is well-liked by teammates and fans, is hard working and fast, an effective agitator

http://www.itsallaboutlappy.com/images/playercard03.jpg

Quote:

ASSETS: Is a very hard worker and earns a lot of respect in standing up for his teammates. Has strong forechecking and penalty-killing skills. Tends to rattle his opponents with his in-your-face attitude.
http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...player.cgi?653

----------------

Center Daymond Langkow has 602 points in 939 NHL games (34 in 53 NHL playoff games) but that's misleading because he's been miscast as a top-line center when on a championship team he'd be an excellent third line center, not only does he do a lot of little things right, the aggressive, hard-working forward is clutch, raising his game when it matters most, having scored 42 NHL game-winning goals

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ondLangkow.jpg

Quote:

... an explosive scorer in junior who became a fine two-way player in the NHL... A reliable two-way player... his speed and anticipation helping Philly reach the Eastern Conference Final in 2000...
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=10635

Quote:

ASSETS: Has the skill, speed and grit to compensate for a lack of size. Can produce great numbers in streaks.
http://www.forecaster.ca/hockeynews/...layer.cgi?1151

VanIslander 03-29-2009 08:19 PM

Left winger/center Petr Nedved, 310 goals, 717 points in 982 NHL games (42 playoff points in 71 NHL postseason games)

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardI...30/122/08F.jpg

Quote:

... got his Canadian citizenship and decided to play for Canada's national team... At the 1994 Olympics in Lillehammer, he and Paul Kariya were the bedrock of the team and they won a silver medal,... Offensive hockey always suited Nedved because he could make use of his strong skating ability and his broad perspective of the game, talents very much suited to the Penguins. The greater freedom was good for Nedved. He spent a great season, 1995-96, with the Penguins, scoring 45 goals and collecting 99 points.... As a foreigner, he wasn't allowed to play for the Czech Republic in any of the competitions organized by the IIHF. But this didn't apply to the World Cup of Hockey, which fell under the rule of the NHL
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=11180

Quote:

... scoring 20 playoff points in helping the Penguins reach the conference finals. Included in that was a monumental goal against the Washington Capitals in a quadruple-overtime thriller, which at 79:15 of OT was at the time the longest NHL game in 60 years
:cry: I watched my Caps shut down Mario and Jagr in that game, ordering extra pizza in a sports bar in Windsor, Ontario as the place stayed open until the game was over. Dang ex-Canuck (my fav team) beat my Caps.

VanIslander 03-29-2009 08:35 PM

Dave Hannan: two-time Stanley cup winning ('88 Oilers, '96 Avs) 16-year NHL veteran role-playing left winger/center scored 305 points and got 942 PIM in 841 NHL games, scoring 3 goals and 8 points in 8 games to help Canada win silver at the 1992 Olympics and is top-50 all-time in shorthanded goals with 22.

http://czechfan.com/images_quecol/hannan_dave.jpg

Quote:

...most famous with the Buffalo Sabres, when on April 27, 1994, during a four overtime Game 6 at the Buffalo Memorial Auditorium, he backhanded home a shot past Martin Brodeur to win it for the Sabres, who forced Game 7 in New Jersey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hannan

Kyle McMahon 03-29-2009 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 18776261)
Dave Hannan: two-time Stanley cup winning ('88 Oilers, '96 Avs) 16-year NHL veteran role-playing left winger/center scored 305 points and got 942 PIM in 841 NHL games, scoring 3 goals and 8 points in 8 games to help Canada win silver at the 1992 Olympics and is top-50 all-time in shorthanded goals with 22.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/6220...4831B75F48EF45


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hannan

You stated that you were glad nobody went and picked Cheechoo (121 goals over three seasons, led the league with 56 one year) or O'Neill (three straight 30-goal seasons in the dead puck era), yet career fourth liners like Dave Hannan and Ian Laperriere are suggested?

I understand that in the context of this draft, they may be just as likely to be the next guys selected since certain roles have to be filled, but in a top-1000 discussion it's laughable to throw their names out there over guys who were elite goal scorers, if only for three years.

VanIslander 03-29-2009 08:56 PM

Here is one of my favorite left wingers (who had great positional sense defensively as well as offensively, truly sublime away from the play imo), really a scoring line role player:

Martin Rucinsky: the tall, speedy Czech scored 612 points in 961 NHL games (14 in 37 NHL playoff games) including a decent 35 game winners and 15 shorthanded, was an all-star at the world juniors (1991), an all-star at the world championships (1999) and in nhl all-star game (2000), is an Olympic gold medalist (1998) and world championship winner (1999), played in 1991 Canada Cup, 1998 and 2004 World Cups.

http://czechfan.com/images_cz/rucinsky_martin.jpg

Quote:

... groomed in the style of international hockey, where speed to cover more ice was essential.... During the World Junior Championships of 1991, he impressed all observers with his deft scoring touch and quick wheels... some effective playmaking and balanced his offense with sufficient attention to keeping the puck out of his own net.

As a Hab,... In his first 56 games he netted 60 points. Over the next two seasons, Rucinsky became a steady, versatile wheel on the Canadiens' caravan. In addition to skating with Damphousse... he killed penalties and joined the club's second power-play unit. And to add some trimming to the cake, Rucinsky joined Dominik Hasek at the 1998 Olympic Winter Games in Nagano where their native Czech Republic team won the gold medal.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=11412

VanIslander 03-29-2009 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 18776808)
You stated that you were glad nobody went and picked Cheechoo (121 goals over three seasons, led the league with 56 one year) or O'Neill (three straight 30-goal seasons in the dead puck era), yet career fourth liners like Dave Hannan and Ian Laperriere are suggested?

I understand that in the context of this draft, they may be just as likely to be the next guys selected since certain roles have to be filled, but in a top-1000 discussion it's laughable to throw their names out there over guys who were elite goal scorers, if only for three years.

Not laughable at all. Plenty of non-goal scorers have been drafted in the ATDs. As a newbie to the ATDs you'll soon learn this.

You may weigh offensive talent heavily in considering who is one of the best thousand hockey players of all time, but the fact is a great hockey team always has several role players: penalty killing, checking, energizing, agitating, enforcing, shot blocking, etcetera.

The ATDs have always respected those aspects to the game.

Look at the line-ups of past ATDs and MLDs and consider whom would be more valuable as a depth pick, extra forward, a Lappy and Hannan or a Cheechoo/O'Neill. The former duo have actually had long, solid performing careers at what they do (and are faster to better handle all-time context level play) whereas the latter have had peaks and valleys at what they do, and really are dead weight when not at their peak, in an all-time competitive hockey context.

O'Neill isn't good enough to be a first liner in an all-time context and isn't of use otherwise (would you play him over Lappy on a 4th line?), "ONeill... could still improve his defensive game. Must show more discipline on and off the ice. Takes too many nights off."
http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...player.cgi?531

Kyle McMahon 03-29-2009 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 18777040)
Not laughable at all. Plenty of non-goal scorers have been drafted in the ATDs. As a newbie to the ATDs you'll soon learn this.

You may weigh offensive talent heavily in considering who is one of the best thousand hockey players of all time, but the fact is a great hockey team always has several role players: penalty killing, checking, energizing, agitating, enforcing, shot blocking, etcetera.

The ATDs have always respected those aspects to the game.

As I said, in an ATD sense, your assessment is not wrong. But if the goal is to list the 1000 best hockey players ever, the names O'Neill and Cheechoo will and should appear long before Hannan and Laperierre.

VanIslander 03-29-2009 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 18777129)
... if the goal is to list the 1000 best hockey players ever, the names O'Neill and Cheechoo will and should appear long before Hannan and Laperierre.

Again I disagree and again say: You may weigh offensive talent heavily in considering who is one of the best thousand hockey players of all time.

I understand that some people think scoring is so important but a peak-and-valley scorer who is slow and dogs it and has a mediocre career overall is simply discounted well past the point where a fast, hard-working, defensively-skilled, consistent performing back-line role player would be on my top-1000 of all time list.

It all comes down to what criteria you use and how much weight you give to each.

pitseleh 03-29-2009 09:34 PM

If we're including role players, C Forbes Kennedy deserves a mention.

Quote:

Forbes Kennedy was a consistent checker and penalty killer in an NHL career that lasted over 600 games. He never scored more than thirty points in a season but was known as a relentless competitor who would not back down from anyone even though he was only 5'8".
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=13182

He played over 400 games during the O6 era which is fairly impressive for a checker, which suggests he was pretty good at what he did.

C Ab DeMarco had a couple of big seasons during the war years. Guys like Herb Cain and Ray Getliffe that built their resumes up during the war years were good enough to be selected in the MLD, so I think he's worth mentioning.

He may not have been great defensively, but D Zarley Zalapski had three top-15 finishes for defensemen (if my numbers are right from hockey-reference, 11th, 12th, 12th) during a fairly deep era for good offensive defensemen.

VanIslander 03-29-2009 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 18773529)
I move that any selection in this thread needs to be backed up with evidence and "seconded" by another member, to be added to the list.

All one has to do is sincerely ARGUE the case for a player one believes is top-1000 all time.

Kyle if you wanna profile O'Neill and Cheechoo go right ahead.

Kyle McMahon 03-29-2009 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 18777040)
O'Neill isn't good enough to be a first liner in an all-time context and isn't of use otherwise (would you play him over Lappy on a 4th line?), "ONeill... could still improve his defensive game. Must show more discipline on and off the ice. Takes too many nights off."
http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...player.cgi?531

Laperriere is just as useless on a 1st line as O'Neill would be on a 4th. Only a talented player can excel on a top line, whereas just about anybody can be coached and trained into being a 4th liner. Do I have more respect for a hard worker who gets by on grit and perserverance than a lazy scorer? Of course. But scoring is the most important thing a player can do IMO. Scoring 56 goals like Cheechoo did made his team into a contender instantly. Laperriere can play great 82 nights a year, but the fate of his team will be determined by whether or not the first and second line put the puck in the net, not how much "energy" he brings to the ice.

Kyle McMahon 03-29-2009 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 18777738)
All one has to do is sincerely ARGUE the case for a player one believes is top-1000 all time.

Kyle if you wanna profile O'Neill and Cheechoo go right ahead.

I'm not even arguing that they're top 1000 players, just that it does them a disservice to applaud their non-selections in the ATD while turning around and promoting 4th liners from a 21-30 team era as top-1000 of all time candidates. But you have your reasoning and I have mine; we can agree to disagree.

God Bless Canada 03-29-2009 10:03 PM

I'd rather have Laperriere and Hannan over Cheechoo, Nedved or O'Neill. Laperriere has been one of the most effective players, for his role, in this decade. He's a very valuable guy to have: a solid

The following words effectively describe Pouting Petr Nedved: Malcontent. Suitcase. Underachiever. Lazy. Negative influence in the locker room. He had great talent, and one of the best wrist shots in the league. He had the ability to do so much more. His one full season over a point-per-game came with two of the top offensive players in NHL history on his line.

Cheechoo had the Rocket Richard season, and a couple other good scoring seasons (28 goals as a sophomore in 03-04, before Thornton arrived, and 37 goals in 06-07) but he's been awful the last two years.

Jeff O'Neill had the ability to be a big star. He was compared to future HHOFers before he ever stepped on the ice, but with the exception of a couple seasons, he was an inconsistent underachiever who left you wanting more. Four straight 60-point seasons is pretty good. I'm not sure if there are many RWs out there who have done that. But O'Neill was capable of so much more than four straight 60-point seasons.

Don't know if he was picked or not, but I expected Ryan Kesler to be drafted. Over the last two seasons, he's been, for my money, one of the top two checking centres in the league. He should have been a Selke finalist last year, and he should win the Selke this year. (Although I think a certain centre in Philly will win it this year). He's big, and he's really mobile for a centre his size. He has excellent hockey sense, great defensive ability, and a strong physical presence. He is becoming everything I projected him to be when he was in college. At worst, I think he'll be in the MLD at this time next year, and if he continues to play at this level, he'll be in the ATD in two years.

vancityluongo 03-29-2009 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Bless Canada (Post 18778337)
I'd rather have Laperriere and Hannan over Cheechoo, Nedved or O'Neill. Laperriere has been one of the most effective players, for his role, in this decade. He's a very valuable guy to have: a solid

The following words effectively describe Pouting Petr Nedved: Malcontent. Suitcase. Underachiever. Lazy. Negative influence in the locker room. He had great talent, and one of the best wrist shots in the league. He had the ability to do so much more. His one full season over a point-per-game came with two of the top offensive players in NHL history on his line.

Cheechoo had the Rocket Richard season, and a couple other good scoring seasons (28 goals as a sophomore in 03-04, before Thornton arrived, and 37 goals in 06-07) but he's been awful the last two years.

Jeff O'Neill had the ability to be a big star. He was compared to future HHOFers before he ever stepped on the ice, but with the exception of a couple seasons, he was an inconsistent underachiever who left you wanting more. Four straight 60-point seasons is pretty good. I'm not sure if there are many RWs out there who have done that. But O'Neill was capable of so much more than four straight 60-point seasons.

Don't know if he was picked or not, but I expected Ryan Kesler to be drafted. Over the last two seasons, he's been, for my money, one of the top two checking centres in the league. He should have been a Selke finalist last year, and he should win the Selke this year. (Although I think a certain centre in Philly will win it this year). He's big, and he's really mobile for a centre his size. He has excellent hockey sense, great defensive ability, and a strong physical presence. He is becoming everything I projected him to be when he was in college. At worst, I think he'll be in the MLD at this time next year, and if he continues to play at this level, he'll be in the ATD in two years.

I was thinking Kesler too. He'll definitely have a Selke or two in the next few years, and by then will probably have accomplished enough to be selected in the ATD. Zach Parise was deservedly selected in the AA draft, and I think he should make the next MLD in some capacity. Same with Alex Semin who I don't think was selected either. Not the same type of player as the other two, but probably at least on par or better than a lot of the softer wingers selected.

Edit: Another current Philly center in the same mold as the first two mentioned, Jeff Carter could be added into the mix as well.

Evil Speaker 03-29-2009 10:32 PM

Kent Douglas
Robert Picard
Paul Cavallini
The Mironovs

Kyle McMahon 03-29-2009 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Bless Canada (Post 18778337)
I'd rather have Laperriere and Hannan over Cheechoo, Nedved or O'Neill. Laperriere has been one of the most effective players, for his role, in this decade. He's a very valuable guy to have: a solid

The following words effectively describe Pouting Petr Nedved: Malcontent. Suitcase. Underachiever. Lazy. Negative influence in the locker room. He had great talent, and one of the best wrist shots in the league. He had the ability to do so much more. His one full season over a point-per-game came with two of the top offensive players in NHL history on his line.

Nedved I would be probably be in agreement with. He was a point collector for the most part. Kovalev would be another example. A guy who could score 75 points and do you more harm than good just by having him around the team.

But Cheechoo, while he's fallen off the map offensively, still brings some grit and physicallity to the table. I've never heard him described as a bad locker room guy.

O'Neill, while an underachiever, still led his team in goals four years in a row. This was a guy who was in the running for the Canadian Olympic team in 2002. The general feeling was that had he not turned down invitations to the World Championships repeatedly in the preceding years, he might have snuck onto the team. He was one of the better scoring RW in the NHL in the early 2000's.

seventieslord 03-29-2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 18776261)
Dave Hannan: two-time Stanley cup winning ('88 Oilers, '96 Avs) 16-year NHL veteran role-playing left winger/center scored 305 points and got 942 PIM in 841 NHL games, scoring 3 goals and 8 points in 8 games to help Canada win silver at the 1992 Olympics and is top-50 all-time in shorthanded goals with 22.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/6220...4831B75F48EF45


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hannan

2 1/2 hours later, and no one has mentioned that this is Scott Hannan?


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