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-   -   Proposal: Hawks-Pens (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=628013)

nickschultzfan 04-07-2009 03:15 PM

Hawks-Pens
 
I think something like this has been posted before. I apologize if it's an exact repeat.

To Pens
Sharp - (Age 27, 3.9 million/year)
Big Buff - (Age 24, 3.0 million/year)
Pahlsson (UFA rights)

To Hawks
J. Staal - (Age 20, 4.0 million/year)
Dupuis - (Age 30, 1.4 million/year)
Another roster/salary dump (If needed)

Note - I have zero stake in either of these two teams.

I just want to see Crosby with a true sniper, and, when it comes to goals, Sharp has one of the highest bang for buck in the entire NHL. Play him with Crosby and he's pushing 45 goals easy. Kunitz-Crosby-Sharp would be a sick first line.

Buff contract is insanely terrible, there is no getting around that, but it's only for two more seasons, and the kid has some potential. He could add a little toughest to the Pens line-up.

If signed, Pahlsson would be a good replacement for J. Staal defensively.

J. Staal would give the Hawks a second line center behind Toews. Nice 1-2 combo.

Dupius is more or less a dump.

davemess 04-07-2009 03:39 PM

I dont see this working for the Penguins to be honest, when it shakes down it is basically a Sharp for Staal deal.

The 2 contracts are basically a wash.

Staal is significantly younger, plays more minutes, kills penalties and i think most importantly still has a huge amount of upside.

River Man 04-07-2009 03:41 PM

Nah. Staal's only getting better, and I really don't care for Byfuglien.

FlyersCup08 04-07-2009 03:50 PM

I agree, I think this trade might as well be Sharp for Staal. I don't see the Pens doing this deal, simply because of the ages. Sharp might put up 40 goals, but Staal is a fantastic player at such a young age. While Sharp might now be just passing his prime, Staal is getting better every game. I say keep Staal, he's more of an asset right now. Besides, without him, who is going to fill in his role as PK specialist / top defensive forward.

nickschultzfan 04-07-2009 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemess (Post 18921485)
I dont see this working for the Penguins to be honest, when it shakes down it is basically a Sharp for Staal deal.

The 2 contracts are basically a wash.

Staal is significantly younger, plays more minutes, kills penalties and i think most importantly still has a huge amount of upside.

More upside than what Sharp is already producing at?

I mean, Staal is going to be a great player one day, but he's not a sniper. Sharp is already a 35-goal scorer, and he's still improving. Put him with Crosby, and he'll get at least 10 more per year, maybe even more. And it's not like Sharp isn't going to play in the NHL for another 8-10 years.

Staal has already been fairly unsuccessful playing with Crosby. It's safe to say that he can be a regular 30 goal scorer, but he's not going to put in 45 like Sharp can.

The real question is NOT "how young is a player?" The real question is "how long is a player going to stay with a team?" Just because Staal is younger, doesn't mean he's going to stay with the Pens longer than Sharp would, especially if Staal is looking for an even bigger raise next time.

River Man 04-07-2009 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickschultzfan (Post 18921736)
More upside than what Sharp is already producing at?

I mean, Staal is going to be a great player one day, but he's not a sniper. Sharp is already a 35-goal scorer, and he's still improving. Put him with Crosby, and he'll get at least 10 more per year, maybe even more. And it's not like Sharp isn't going to play in the NHL for another 8-10 years.

Staal has already been fairly unsuccessful playing with Crosby. It's safe to say that he can be a regular 30 goal scorer, but he's not going to put in 45 like Sharp can.

This whole thing of putting a winger with Crosby and assuming increased production is wrong to say the least. Most wingers put with Crosby have produced what they always have. I don't see Sharp being the exception.

Secondly, Crosby is a 100 point scorer. The need to have a winger on his line who can pad his stats is a bit silly. Staal is very effective in his role on this team, and he produces nice shiny stats as well.

Sharp is a fine player, but management seems to be alright with keeping Staal, and why shouldn't they? He's been improving steadily throughout this career and his best years are ahead.

nickschultzfan 04-07-2009 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River Man (Post 18921797)
This whole thing of putting a winger with Crosby and assuming increased production is wrong to say the least. Most wingers put with Crosby have produced what they always have. I don't see Sharp being the exception.

Secondly, Crosby is a 100 point scorer. The need to have a winger on his line who can pad his stats is a bit silly. Staal is very effective in his role on this team, and he produces nice shiny stats as well.

Sharp is a fine player, but management seems to be alright with keeping Staal, and why shouldn't they? He's been improving steadily throughout this career and his best years are ahead.

For all I care, the Pens should keep Staal.

But it is not silly to want to see what Crosby can do with a full-time sniper. If your logic is applied the other way, Crosby with a 35 points winger is just as good as Crosby with a 70 point winger, which is completely false.

The Pens go out and get Kunitz, and, BAM, instant results. It's a false logic to say that "Crosby is so good that he doesn't need good wingers" or that "playing with Crosby wouldn't increase a skillful winger's production".

Mike Farkas 04-07-2009 04:31 PM

We really have no interest in acquiring Byfuglien in virtually any deal...I'm not sure how he got into the league, but I doubt the Pens wish to continue the odd trend of him seeing NHL minutes...

The Sharp for Staal aspect is interesting...but I think I'd rather see what Staal ends up being as opposed to moving him in a deal like this...

Piffle 04-07-2009 04:50 PM

I think the value is close to right on this deal, but I don't think the Hawks would do it. Sharp is a key member of the team and a leader in the room. The Hawks finally found their guy in Pahlsson and will make every attempt to re-sign him as our third line guy.

Bolland is the Hawks #2 guy. He is already on par with Staal. He has less goal scoring ability but much better play-making ability. He is as good defensively and on the PK. The only other thing Staal has on him is size. The Hawks need is to keep Pahlsson as a third line center, not aquire a guy like Staal that is going to require a bigger paycheck. I wanted Staal on the Hawks for a while, but I don't think he is a good fit any more.

By the way, expect Pahlsson to score a lot more points in Chicago with the system we play. If he stays next year, I expect him to have a career year in points playing with Ladd and Byfuglien. And yes, Byfuglien is an NHL caliber player. Plus he still has huge upside. But he is overpaid for sure.

River Man 04-07-2009 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickschultzfan (Post 18922092)
For all I care, the Pens should keep Staal.

But it is not silly to want to see what Crosby can do with a full-time sniper. If your logic is applied the other way, Crosby with a 35 points winger is just as good as Crosby with a 70 point winger, which is completely false.

The Pens go out and get Kunitz, and, BAM, instant results. It's a false logic to say that "Crosby is so good that he doesn't need good wingers" or that "playing with Crosby wouldn't increase a skillful winger's production".

With our cap issues, getting wingers specifically for Crosby can't always be a possibility.

It'd be great to have a winger like Sharp on the team, but I don't think it's worth trading Staal to give Crosby a player to pad his stats. He's playing fine with Kunitz and Guerin.

Now Malkin on the other hand...

Flapjack* 04-07-2009 06:31 PM

Buff isnt an NHL quality player, just a big dead in the dome body.

Sharp for Staal? Yeah, in a heartbeat, but I dont think Pitt would do that.

Brandinho 04-07-2009 07:05 PM

Pahlsson an UFA and we have enough third line centers, Sharp for Staal doesn't appeal to me and Byfuglien is an awful, awful player. No thanks.

davemess 04-08-2009 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickschultzfan (Post 18921736)
More upside than what Sharp is already producing at?

Yes definetly, Staal maybe doesnt quite have the upside in the goal scoring department to get him to 38 a year but hockey isnt just about goal scorers.

Besides one 38 goal season doesnt mean Sharp is going to repeat that every year for the next 4 years.

DisgruntledHawkFan 04-08-2009 01:53 AM

Sharp's a 30+ goal scorer that's great on the PK. Staal is big and talented, but I'm not too quick on moving our best sniper that's allegedly past his prime at the ripe old age of 27. Hawks need a second line center sure, but moving a first line winger is fixing a hole by unplugging another.

Zim 04-08-2009 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemess (Post 18934168)
Yes definetly, Staal maybe doesnt quite have the upside in the goal scoring department to get him to 38 a year but hockey isnt just about goal scorers.

Besides one 38 goal season doesnt mean Sharp is going to repeat that every year for the next 4 years.

He has been injured this year but Sharp with 26g in 61gp was on pace for 35 goals (i know people don't like on pace stats but it would have been very unlinkely for Sharp to drop below 30 goals this year). Sharp this year has shown that last year wasn't a fluke and there is no reason to think that he can't put up around 35 goals a year for the majority of his remaining career.

Morozov 04-08-2009 05:32 AM

Big pass thanks, Buff at 3 million is a big turn off and Staal I just don't want to give up on this guy at 20 years old.

JTG 04-08-2009 08:48 AM

Pot needs to be sweetened for the Pens to even consider this.

Mr Jiggyfly 04-08-2009 10:03 AM

I've been on the trade Staal for a winger bandwagon, but the way he has been playing there is no way they can get back equal value for him, unless another team is willing to grossly overpay.

He has been the best player on the ice in many games over the last couple of months.

It seems like the game has slowed down for him... he is passing the puck very well... something I didn't think he would ever be proficient at.

He is also carrying the puck up ice and beating multiple defenders, consistently.

He has become more physical and is shooting the puck... all while still playing his usual sound defensive game.

In a nutshell, he is doing everything well right now and looking dominant...

This is the Staal I was hoping to see when he was drafted. He has really become a beast... if he continues this play into next season, his contract will be a huge bargain.

brevard* 04-08-2009 10:22 AM

A) Sharp is better than Staal today and both are getting better.
B) Current Sharplike production is what you are HOPING to get from Staal.
C) Bolland played line 3 minutes w/o PP time early yet produced about = to Staal.
D) Buff is not worth 3M but has been playing well the last 6 weeks also remember he was a D-man until this year and is well behind the PF learning curve. It's not his fault he is overpaid yet he could be worth his $$ by this time next year.

You could have robbed the Hawks early in the year for a #2 C but with Bolland's growth they don't have that need any longer. I think they would love to resign Pahlsson and move along with Toews, Bolland and Sammy.

Chicago says no thank you to moving 3 roster players for 1 guy they don't really need and some yard trash.

WOTR 04-08-2009 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brevard (Post 18936923)
A) Sharp is better than Staal today and both are getting better.
B) Current Sharplike production is what you are HOPING to get from Staal.
C) Bolland played line 3 minutes w/o PP time early yet produced about = to Staal.
D) Buff is not worth 3M but has been playing well the last 6 weeks also remember he was a D-man until this year and is well behind the PF learning curve. It's not his fault he is overpaid yet he could be worth his $$ by this time next year.

You could have robbed the Hawks early in the year for a #2 C but with Bolland's growth they don't have that need any longer. I think they would love to resign Pahlsson and move along with Toews, Bolland and Sammy.

Chicago says no thank you to moving 3 roster players for 1 guy they don't really need and some yard trash.

second this

massivegoonery 04-08-2009 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemess (Post 18921485)
I dont see this working for the Penguins to be honest, when it shakes down it is basically a Sharp for Staal deal.

The 2 contracts are basically a wash.

Staal is significantly younger, plays more minutes, kills penalties and i think most importantly still has a huge amount of upside.

Yeah, his upside is that he *might* turn into a bigger, slower Pat Sharp. No dice.

Dick Whitman 04-08-2009 12:24 PM

Crosby's a one-man-gang. he doesn't really need wingers, he'll still put up his 100+ points without much problem.

If I were pittsburgh, I'd look for some decent 2nd or 3rd line power forwards with some talent to open up room and make sure he can skate wherever he wants. Chris Neil but with more skill, for example.

AK 04-08-2009 12:42 PM

Sure.

I doubt the Hawks would do it, though.

ic3d2 04-08-2009 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTG32005 (Post 18935904)
Pot.

That's where I stopped reading. Who's smokin' what nickscholtzfan?

Burgs 04-08-2009 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus (Post 18938938)
If I were pittsburgh, I'd look for some decent 2nd or 3rd line power forwards with some talent to open up room and make sure he can skate wherever he wants. Chris Neil but with more skill, for example.

You're right. Finding a top six power forward has been a problem for the Pens for many years. Malone took his sweet time to learn that type of game and once he had it, he was UFA and left. Kunitz and Guerin are doing a much better job of creating space for Sid than Dupuis and Satan did, though.

But we have four big, talented winger prospects in the system now (Caputi, Pierro-Zabotel, Veilleux and Tangradi) so hopefully 1 or 2 of them work out for us so we don't have to make a trade.


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