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KING 03-22-2004 06:35 AM

Rangers prospect optimistic
 
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsro...22rangers.html

True Blue 03-22-2004 06:59 AM

"Strbak hit Messier first. "An old wily veteran taking a young guy to task,'' Renney said. "
I'd love to see what his quote would have been had it been either Lundmark or Balej or anyone not named Messier who had done the act.

Forechecker 03-22-2004 07:59 AM

"Home-town" discount??? Sounds like Umberger is playing a danergerous game. Also, if the numbers Lawton quoted are correct, they seem pretty decent for a kid who has sat out a year. If he's THAT anxious to get to the NHL, maybe he should be more realistic about what his contract statues really is?

Shadowtron 03-22-2004 08:27 AM

With all this posturing he's doing, this kid better be great when/if they sign him. Seems to be overflowing with confidence, I just hope that translates onto the ice. Mottau played the same game and turned out to be garbage.

Son of Steinbrenner 03-22-2004 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
"Strbak hit Messier first. "An old wily veteran taking a young guy to task,'' Renney said. "
I'd love to see what his quote would have been had it been either Lundmark or Balej or anyone not named Messier who had done the act.

yeah a 25 year vetearan shouldn't be given any leeway by the coaching staff :shakehead

come on guys the rangers ruined mottou. :joker:

Fletch 03-22-2004 09:36 AM

Hartford's in trouble...
 
I noticed this in that article 'Rangers general manager Glen Sather will personally oversee the workouts'.

True Blue 03-22-2004 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
yeah a 25 year vetearan shouldn't be given any leeway by the coaching staff :shakehead

come on guys the rangers ruined mottou. :joker:

What the eff' does Mottau have to do w/ ANYTHING? And a spearing major (intent to injure) is a spearing major no matter who takes. Giving the other team a 5 minute PP is fairly stupid no matter who does it. Just that had it been Lundmark who had done the spearing, he would have found himself not dressed for a few games. Or are you saying that spearing is perfectly allright, so long as it is comitted by a guy who had been in the league for 25 years?

Shadowtron 03-22-2004 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
What the eff' does Mottau have to do w/ ANYTHING? And a spearing major (intent to injure) is a spearing major no matter who takes. Giving the other team a 5 minute PP is fairly stupid no matter who does it. Just that had it been Lundmark who had done the spearing, he would have found himself not dressed for a few games. Or are you saying that spearing is perfectly allright, so long as it is comitted by a guy who had been in the league for 25 years?


His Mottau reference comes from my post. I said that Mottau played the same type of game Umberger played with his contract and turned to be garbage.

LiquidClown 03-22-2004 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
yeah a 25 year vetearan shouldn't be given any leeway by the coaching staff :shakehead


And why should he be given ANY leeway at all? Just because he's played in the NHL for a long time doesn't mean that the rules apply to Messier any different than they do an 18 year old.

TB's point was (and I hope I'm getting this right) thatif it had been a young kid that would have been in the EXACT same situation and followed through with the exact same actions the player would probably be criticized to no end and probably been a healthy scratch or see alot of bench time. It's the same old thing we've seen for too long, Messier can do NO wrong. Anything Mess does is for the good of the team. Messier would NEVER do anything selfish EVER like leaving the team for more money.... oh wait.

Fitzlax99 03-22-2004 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
What the eff' does Mottau have to do w/ ANYTHING? And a spearing major (intent to injure) is a spearing major no matter who takes. Giving the other team a 5 minute PP is fairly stupid no matter who does it. Just that had it been Lundmark who had done the spearing, he would have found himself not dressed for a few games. Or are you saying that spearing is perfectly allright, so long as it is comitted by a guy who had been in the league for 25 years?

You are right, Lundmark probably would be scratched if he did that. But with the way he is sleeping out there he should have been a healthy scratch already. He is a "scoring" forward who cant score, and hes too small and unstable on his skates to be a grinder.

Messier, on the other hand, despite all the constant b****ing and moaning all year, has been one of our best forwards.

Park #2 03-22-2004 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowtron
His Mottau reference comes from my post. I said that Mottau played the same type of game Umberger played with his contract and turned to be garbage.

How do Mottau and Umberger play the "same sort of game with their contracts"??? Mottau was nothing more then a low level prospect and Umberger is a 1st round draft pick with top line center upside????

AJ1982 03-22-2004 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Park #2
How do Mottau and Umberger play the "same sort of game with their contracts"??? Mottau was nothing more then a low level prospect and Umberger is a 1st round draft pick with top line center upside????

I thought Mottau was a Hobey Baker winner.

Bluenote13 03-22-2004 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1982
I thought Mottau was a Hobey Baker winner.

He was, but even then he was considered a marginal NHL D-man.

JR#9* 03-22-2004 12:44 PM

Slats has to and I believe will get the kid signed but I think he's just trying to get the extra 2nd by letting him become a UFA and then signing him at that point which could be a great move to get an extra asset in the 46th pick.

I'd be all for it if I were Umberger as I'd want the team I'm going to to be able to get whatever they can in such a deal.

Even if Slats has to pay up for the kid it will be well worth it if we can get the extra 2nd and with all the money we threw around the last few yrs I wouldn't mind taking a chance by making sure we secure this kid for our future.

True Blue 03-22-2004 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitzlax99
Messier, on the other hand, despite all the constant b****ing and moaning all year, has been one of our best forwards.

So that means that he should be immune from penalties resulting from spearing? Liquid got it right. This has nothing to do w/ who should and should not be a healthy scratch. Just the scenario of what would occur had it been a young kid who comitted the deed.

Edge 03-22-2004 02:13 PM

At this point if Jamie showed half the spark out there I don't think he's yelled at. Esepcially if he was trying to set the tone.

Garth Murray is a kid who is gonna fight, be aggreive and in your face and he hasn't gotten yelled at yet.

Coaches on the whole are willing to accept aggressive penalties more than stupid lazy ones such as hooking and tripping and holding.

Messier did what has kept him in the league for 20 years. Chelios would do the same thing. There's a reason why both these guys, now entering their mid 40's are still playing and playing pretty dang good.

That's another reason why guys like Gretzky and Mario have bad backs. If you don't send off warning shots to people their just gonna grind you into the ground.

I think the bigger problem here is that a guy like Lundmark isnt showing life.

You haven't heard one peep about how aggressive Murray has been.

Kodiak 03-22-2004 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge
At this point if Jamie showed half the spark out there I don't think he's yelled at. Esepcially if he was trying to set the tone.

Garth Murray is a kid who is gonna fight, be aggreive and in your face and he hasn't gotten yelled at yet.

Coaches on the whole are willing to accept aggressive penalties more than stupid lazy ones such as hooking and tripping and holding.

Messier did what has kept him in the league for 20 years. Chelios would do the same thing. There's a reason why both these guys, now entering their mid 40's are still playing and playing pretty dang good.

That's another reason why guys like Gretzky and Mario have bad backs. If you don't send off warning shots to people their just gonna grind you into the ground.

I think the bigger problem here is that a guy like Lundmark isnt showing life.

You haven't heard one peep about how aggressive Murray has been.

The difference is that Murray doesn't often put the team down a man with his aggressiveness. He's smart about it. Murray has taken all of 2 non-fighting penalties in his short NHL career so far. If Murray were to take a major and a match, then you would hear about it.

Edge 03-22-2004 03:05 PM

I dunno no one complained when Simon was going it.

Messier did what he had to do, and until we can point to a young player doing that and getting blasted by Renney it's a nonpoint because there's nothing to back it up.

And no Dale "Lemme jump someone every shift because i cant fight" Purinton doesn't count.

Murray is going to be the same type of nasty player. When he starts getting benched for it then we can debate.

Fitzlax99 03-22-2004 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
So that means that he should be immune from penalties resulting from spearing? Liquid got it right. This has nothing to do w/ who should and should not be a healthy scratch. Just the scenario of what would occur had it been a young kid who comitted the deed.

No, the point is that not everything is a conspiracy.

In a case like this does Mess or Holike get different treatment than rookies? yes. Why?

1) They are consistanly the teams best forwards.
2) They are veterans, and in Messiers case a super-veteran.

Young guys develop bad habits, and need to be kept on shorter leashes in terms of discipline. Its one thing to bench a young guy for not producing (which of course the Rangers have done in the past) its another thing entirely for a coach to scold a young guy for taking a dangerous penalty.

Edge 03-22-2004 03:15 PM

it should also be pointed out that When Messier was 12-24 he too sat for penalties at times.

He's an aggressive player and that's going to happen. Honestly I can live with incidents like what Messier did any day over Tom Poti hooking, holding and tripping nonsense.

Melrose_Jr. 03-22-2004 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR#9
Slats has to and I believe will get the kid signed

I don't think he HAS to. Umberger has to prove that he wants to be here just as much as Sather has to sell him on the Rangers. If this is a guy who's going to half-ass it during a tryout or publically express his affection for the Pens every time someone sticks a microphone in his face, then I'm not sure this is the type of player we're looking for. The prima donna era where players get by on past accomplishments alone is over.

Janerixon 03-22-2004 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
I don't think he HAS to. Umberger has to prove that he wants to be here just as much as Sather has to sell him on the Rangers. If this is a guy who's going to half-ass it during a tryout or publically express his affection for the Pens every time someone sticks a microphone in his face, then I'm not sure this is the type of player we're looking for. The prima donna era where players get by on past accomplishments alone is over.

melrose is right
umberger makes it sound like he wants to be here, but he passed on a pretty fair contract offer first off, he continues to talk about possibly going to the pens, i mean he should just be saying, i want to be a ranger and if things dont work out then i will go from there, but he isnt helping his case

as for sather letting umberger become a ufa and then signing him, very risky business, it may not work b/c he could go sign w/ th pens obviously and whos to say bettman wont jump in and void the contract and take away one of our draft picks as a case of tampering

sather has gotten away with alot
the grosek, brad brown for quintal waiver deal
the leetch, messier, and fleury trades where those teams got picks
poile from nashville is complaining about the nedved trade
the salary dumps we have taken on
the suppossed talking to keenan while he was a panther coach
im not saying any of this is 100% wrong of sather to do, but the point is sather has been doin some sketchy things and if he was to get the draft pick and then sign umberger on june 2nd he would most likely be looked into and penalized

JR#9* 03-22-2004 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
I don't think he HAS to. Umberger has to prove that he wants to be here just as much as Sather has to sell him on the Rangers. If this is a guy who's going to half-ass it during a tryout or publically express his affection for the Pens every time someone sticks a microphone in his face, then I'm not sure this is the type of player we're looking for. The prima donna era where players get by on past accomplishments alone is over.


The guy was asked about the Pens as he is still yet unsigned and he sat out a full year to have more control over where he plays which is all well within the rules and his rights.

He didn't say he preffered the Pens but as a HOMETOWN boy he was asked about the possibility of playing there and being totally honest ANY hometown boy would answer that of course it crossed their minds so making a big deal out of this is way off.

And the kid displayed joy at having the chance to become a NYR and said he enjoyed every second of the practices and that he was eager to show the Rangers his willingness to work.

And yes, he HAS to because this kid has very substantial upside and IMO his character took a beating over him not accepting what Burke was offering which was low as I understand it.

You don't let a kid like this walk over a couple of hundred grand when you are in a spot so hungry for top end youth as we now are.

JR#9* 03-22-2004 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janerixon
melrose is right

as for sather letting umberger become a ufa and then signing him, very risky business, it may not work b/c he could go sign w/ th pens obviously and whos to say bettman wont jump in and void the contract and take away one of our draft picks as a case of tampering

sather has gotten away with alot
the grosek, brad brown for quintal waiver deal
the leetch, messier, and fleury trades where those teams got picks
poile from nashville is complaining about the nedved trade
the salary dumps we have taken on
the suppossed talking to keenan while he was a panther coach
im not saying any of this is 100% wrong of sather to do, but the point is sather has been doin some sketchy things and if he was to get the draft pick and then sign umberger on june 2nd he would most likely be looked into and penalized

There is no risk because RJ's future is entirely in HIS hands.

If he wants to sign w/another team he won't ink a deal with us and walk to where ever it is he wants to go.

IF however he likes the NYR's offer why wouldn't BOTH he and the NYR's get the extra 2nd and then ink him on July 2nd?RJ would be letting his team add an extra asset and the NYR's would get a great return for Rosie.

And this would all be well within the rules.The NHL can do nothbing about such things until the new CBA.

Fitzlax99 03-22-2004 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR#9
The guy was asked about the Pens as he is still yet unsigned and he sat out a full year to have more control over where he plays which is all well within the rules and his rights.

He didn't say he preffered the Pens but as a HOMETOWN boy he was asked about the possibility of playing there and being totally honest ANY hometown boy would answer that of course it crossed their minds so making a big deal out of this is way off.

And the kid displayed joy at having the chance to become a NYR and said he enjoyed every second of the practices and that he was eager to show the Rangers his willingness to work.

And yes, he HAS to because this kid has very substantial upside and IMO his character took a beating over him not accepting what Burke was offering which was low as I understand it.

You don't let a kid like this walk over a couple of hundred grand when you are in a spot so hungry for top end youth as we now are.

Agreed. Worse case scenario we could always trade him to Pitt, one would have to think his value is higher than a mid-2nd rounder.


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