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-   -   USHL vs. CHL (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=641484)

hugehockeyfan88 05-11-2009 11:51 AM

USHL vs. CHL
 
http://ushl.com/news/story.cfm?id=2530

"Traditionally conducted in the fall since it became a part of the League's player procurement process, Tuesday's Futures Draft will be held in May for the first time. The move was made by the USHL to continue its commitment of aggressively promoting the American Development Model and offering a greater opportunity for North America's elite "U-17"'s to work towards a position in the USHL"

The USHL is now trying to be more like the CHL in having more 16 year olds in the league. They are tired of losing players to the CHL at such a young age so they will now get the college hockey theme into them earlier like the CHL has been in the past.

Is this going to help or hurt the USHL?

The Exiled One 05-11-2009 03:50 PM

The only reason it might hurt the USHL is that the younger players who succeed will be courted by the CHL. Otherwise, the individual USHL teams will still put together the strongest teams they can. Ultimately, that will NOT include many 16-year-olds.

However, I guess if they can get more of the younger kids to their tryout camps, the really good kids will realize that the USHL is indeed a very high level of competition and will challenge them up until the age of 18. After that, the decision to move on to the CHL or the NCAA is up to the individual player.

Stories 05-11-2009 04:26 PM

This will be good for the USHL and NCAA schools. Instead of sending 18 year old players to the USHL for a year of seasoning before coming to play NCAA, these kids will already have a few years of USHL experience under their belts and can step in on NCAA teams right away as 18 year olds.

sgupca 05-11-2009 04:44 PM

This will do nothing but help the USHL; this isn't the first time a league has changed the date on a draft or changed the age limit to attract new and younger players.

The KHL is also drafting younger players (starting next year) They are lowering their age limit to 17. So now if a 17 year old doesn't want to wait to be drafted in the NHL they can play professional hockey in Russia.

But I think this will help the development of younger players and the advancement of the USHL, because as of now it's a step behind the CHL.

Brock 05-11-2009 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stories (Post 19519161)
This will be good for the USHL and NCAA schools. Instead of sending 18 year old players to the USHL for a year of seasoning before coming to play NCAA, these kids will already have a few years of USHL experience under their belts and can step in on NCAA teams right away as 18 year olds.

But, how many 16 year olds are going to come to the USHL right away.

From my understanding, the problem that development programs like the USHL and NAHL have had in the past, is that 16 and 17 year old players don't want to leave their high school or prep teams.

In Canada, high school or prep hockey is not what it is in the states (high school sports in general aren't). The CHL is the main draw for hockey players aged 16 and 17 in Canada, with Tier 2, being the fallback plan. High school hockey is essentially the stepping stone to the beer leagues (for the most part).

In the U.S., in particular places like Minnesota, high school and prep hockey is HUGE. Are 16 and 17 year olds from Minnesota going to want to join a USHL team as a 3rd-4th liner, over staying with their friends and teammates and trying to be Mr. Hockey and win a HS Championship?

Does moving the draft up really make these 16 year olds want to join the USHL more?

The Exiled One 05-11-2009 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 19520217)
But, how many 16 year olds are going to come to the USHL right away.

From my understanding, the problem that development programs like the USHL and NAHL have had in the past, is that 16 and 17 year old players don't want to leave their high school or prep teams.

In Canada, high school or prep hockey is not what it is in the states (high school sports in general aren't). The CHL is the main draw for hockey players aged 16 and 17 in Canada, with Tier 2, being the fallback plan. High school hockey is essentially the stepping stone to the beer leagues (for the most part).

In the U.S., in particular places like Minnesota, high school and prep hockey is HUGE. Are 16 and 17 year olds from Minnesota going to want to join a USHL team as a 3rd-4th liner, over staying with their friends and teammates and trying to be Mr. Hockey and win a HS Championship?

Does moving the draft up really make these 16 year olds want to join the USHL more?

You're right, it won't affect the Minnesota high schools too much. However, I could see it as a better option for some of the Michigan kids than the AAA programs. Those programs are extremely expensive, so a subsidized USHL program could make more sense financially.

However, as it is now, there are a few Minnesotans who will still choose to skip hometown hockey. Most often it's when kids outclass their teams schedule difficulty. Seth Ambroz, for example, was one of the top two players on his team as a freshman. The switch made sense for him. Although, many kids switch only AFTER they get their scholarship, which isn't the case for most 16-year-olds.

montreal 05-12-2009 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Exiled One (Post 19522837)
You're right, it won't affect the Minnesota high schools too much. However, I could see it as a better option for some of the Michigan kids than the AAA programs. Those programs are extremely expensive, so a subsidized USHL program could make more sense financially.

Agreed. I played in the USHS in PA (philly) many years ago and something like this could be good for the kids from lesser known states as from talking with scouts at ISS in the past about how the US is seeing a surge in talent from outside the usual states like Minny, Mass, etc... so a kid that is way ahead of his age group in say Maryland or Florida or Cali, etc... might be able to take advantage of this by playing at a higher level and getting more exposure at a younger age.

Hotsauce 05-12-2009 09:12 AM

Just looking at 16 year olds at Juniors next year USHL vs CHL

OHL scored big IMO by snagging Trocheck, Mahalak, Noesen, and Morbeck to name a few. All good students as well, and two of four were at 40 camp too. NTDP loss CHL gain?

WHL got Jacobs, McColgan, Jensen, and maybe Hohmann. But, they play with older more expierenced kids. NTDP loss CHL gain?

Ambroz plays on a top USHL team, and is able to step up when he can contribute. He does not have to carry the team.

US U17's got Miller, Biggs, Grimaldi, and Russo to name a few big names. These kids are USHL ready, and the rest are suspect as to who will carry team. IMO, the goalies are green, and some of those Mn kids are small, a bit overrated?

The NTDP will take 22 93's out of the mix eventually, and play established USHL teams. It will be a very big challenge again. IMO.

USHL Future draft today will tell more of the story. Lots of good 93's ready to play next year and will get a bigger challenge by playing with established teams.

The Exiled One 05-12-2009 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotsauce (Post 19532844)
IMO, the goalies are green, and some of those Mn kids are small, a bit overrated?

Remember, a high percentage of Minnesotans offered NTDP spots the in last few years turned down the program. Even so, which of the Minnesotans that accepted performed poorly? As for the the 93's, I don't know how Van Voorhis will do, but there's no reason to believe that Boyd won't do every bit as good as Schroeder did. Travis is the real deal and could potentially lead the team in scoring. Goalies are a crapshoot at that age, but the University of Maine went out on a limb to land McNeely even before he committed to the NTDP... if that's any indication of his talent level. If anything, I'm guessing the Minnesotans are underrated, but I'm a bit biased, of course.

The Select 16 invitees are a good indicator of which players might be good enough to contribute in the USHL. Most of the Minnesota invitees play for strong teams with strong schedules, but I could see a couple (Mitch Hall, Michael Zajac) that would be tempted to challenge themselves by playing in the USHL.

Hotsauce 05-12-2009 11:31 AM

Exile: Has MN narrowed the list down from here yet:

http://minnesotahockey.org/assorted/...nced16Boys.pdf

Which ones do you think will get drafted high in the Futures?

The Exiled One 05-12-2009 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotsauce (Post 19534442)
Exile: Has MN narrowed the list down from here yet:

http://minnesotahockey.org/assorted/...nced16Boys.pdf

Which ones do you think will get drafted high in the Futures?

Yep, here at the Select 16 invitees from Minnesota...

Ben Bahe F Hill Murray
Kevin Becker F Hill Murray
Travis Boyd F Hopkins
Dan Carlson F Maple Grove
Anthony Greco F Shattuck St. Mary's Prep
Christian Horn F Benilde- St. Margaret's
Cullen Hurley F Holy Angels
Thomas Schutt F Minnetonka
Michael Sit F Edina
Michael Zajac F Eagan
James Cotroneo D Hill Murray
Max Everson D Edina
Taylor Fleming D St. Thomas Academy
Mitch Hall D St. Cloud Tech
Dan Molenaar D Eden Prairie
Kevin Schulze D Hill Murray
Bodhi Engum G Burnsville
Matt McNeely G St. Thomas Academy

In the early rounds, the USHL will focus on the kids they can lure away from high school. The middle and later rounds will be the kids they think will need a year or two of juniors before heading off to the NCAA. Hall and Zajac play for weaker teams. Hill Murray, Benilde-St. Margaret's, Holy Angels, and St. Thomas are private schools, so those kids have already shown that they're willing to chase their hockey dreams, but will they move away from home too? Basically, if any of these kids go early, it's a good indicator that they've already spoken with the USHL coaches and let their intentions be known... ala the CHL.

The Exiled One 05-12-2009 03:09 PM

Probably to be expected, the early picks will include a lot of NTDP rejects. I'll edit this post as the picks are announced.

1. Youngstown - Matt Mahalak - G - Culver Academy
2. Cedar Rapids - Cason Hohmann - F - Compuware?
3. Waterloo - Jay Williams - G - TPH Thunder
4. Des Moines - Nick Malysa - D - NJ Avalanche
5. Fargo - Brian Cooper - D - Alaska All-Stars

On second thought, I'll let WCH liveblog it instead...

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog....-futures-draft

hugehockeyfan88 05-12-2009 06:15 PM

Cason Hohman - Expect him to go USHL? Did he get cut from NTDP? Who owns his WHL rights?

the future 05-13-2009 01:39 AM

Portland owns Hohmann's rights. Hard to believe he would turn down playing for them and possibly hurt his development. The ushl is an ok league but to turn down playing with your peers at the highest level doesn't make much sense.

Old Navy Goat 05-13-2009 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the future (Post 19546771)
Portland owns Hohmann's rights. Hard to believe he would turn down playing for them and possibly hurt his development. The ushl is an ok league but to turn down playing with your peers at the highest level doesn't make much sense.

It all depends on what his goals are...if he wants to play in the NCAA then he'll go the USHL; if not he should be in Portland.

The Exiled One 05-13-2009 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the future (Post 19546771)
Portland owns Hohmann's rights. Hard to believe he would turn down playing for them and possibly hurt his development. The ushl is an ok league but to turn down playing with your peers at the highest level doesn't make much sense.

You can argue all you want about the WHL being the best league available to a 16 year old, I have no issue with that, but to say that he'll "hurt" his development by playing in the USHL is ridiculous. He'd be a fourth liner in the WHL, he'd be a third liner in the USHL... that's pretty much the difference. He could still jump to the WHL when he's 17, 18, or 19. There's no need for him to make a difficult "one-way" decision like that at the age of 16.

the future 05-13-2009 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Exiled One (Post 19547777)
You can argue all you want about the WHL being the best league available to a 16 year old, I have no issue with that, but to say that he'll "hurt" his development by playing in the USHL is ridiculous. He'd be a fourth liner in the WHL, he'd be a third liner in the USHL... that's pretty much the difference. He could still jump to the WHL when he's 17, 18, or 19. There's no need for him to make a difficult "one-way" decision like that at the age of 16.

All i'm saying is better league, better development. Even if Hohmann was getting 3rd-4th line minutes. His pace is getting quicken by the level of play. There's a huge development curve for those playing in the CHL at 16 and starting their 2nd season at 17. Just knowing what to expect at 17 in mind is invaluable. I just find it surprising that a guy pretty dominant on his own team, seeing his teammates getting drafted and signing with OHL, that he would choose the lesser route.

morrisb 05-13-2009 09:22 AM

I don't think it is accurate to say he would be a third liner. By moving the futures draft, the USHL did not find a bunch of new kids able to play in the league next yr. i dont see it as a place for 93s. The WHL on the other hand is... they will integrate the 16 yo players into the lineup-- because that is how the CHL leagues are set up.

The Exiled One 05-13-2009 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the future (Post 19548064)
All i'm saying is better league, better development. Even if Hohmann was getting 3rd-4th line minutes. His pace is getting quicken by the level of play. There's a huge development curve for those playing in the CHL at 16 and starting their 2nd season at 17. Just knowing what to expect at 17 in mind is invaluable. I just find it surprising that a guy pretty dominant on his own team, seeing his teammates getting drafted and signing with OHL, that he would choose the lesser route.

John Carlson seemed to handle the transition just fine. You can argue that he would have been "even better" had he started in the OHL earlier, but you can't say that his time in the USHL "hurt" his development. I guess I just take offense to the word "hurt" used in that context.

BTW, 93 players from 12 USHL teams are currently in the NHL despite being "hurt" from playing in an inferior league. How many players does the 22 team WHL currently have playing in the NHL?

Quote:

Originally Posted by morrisb (Post 19548330)
I don't think it is accurate to say he would be a third liner. By moving the futures draft, the USHL did not find a bunch of new kids able to play in the league next yr. i dont see it as a place for 93s. The WHL on the other hand is... they will integrate the 16 yo players into the lineup-- because that is how the CHL leagues are set up.

The teams in the CHL want to win, and will play their players accordingly. Same goes for the USHL. The only other reason a CHL team might want to "integrate" a 16-year-old into the lineup for a handful of games is to ensure that the CHL becomes their only option.

cagney 05-13-2009 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the future (Post 19546771)
Portland owns Hohmann's rights. Hard to believe he would turn down playing for them and possibly hurt his development. The ushl is an ok league but to turn down playing with your peers at the highest level doesn't make much sense.

I've seen a number of players from places like California and Texas go to the WHL as 16/17 year olds and end up washing out of the league completely. Unless the player has obvious high end potential there's nothing wrong with playing at a lower level at such a young age.

If Hohmann doesn't adjust well to the USHL maybe he'll rethink going to the WHL and just stick around 'til he's ready to contribute at an NCAA program. At least he still has options. If he has a good year and it looks like he has a chance at the next level, he can go to the WHL next year. A year in the USHL at 16 didn't hurt Sam Gagner when he left for the OHL.

Then again, the NTDP could still be an option as far as anybody seems to know.

The Exiled One 05-13-2009 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cagney (Post 19550187)
Then again, the NTDP could still be an option as far as anybody seems to know.

I wonder how they're going to work that out? Are all the '93's drafted yesterday now off-limits to the NTDP? If not, does the USHL team who loses a player to the NTDP get some sort of compensation, considering that both teams are in the same league? Besides Hohmann, you'd have to imagine that Jay Williams, Nick Malysa, Brian Cooper, Jordan Schmaltz, etc are now prime targets for the NTDP. This could get interesting.

cagney 05-13-2009 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Exiled One (Post 19550325)
I wonder how they're going to work that out? Are all the '93's drafted yesterday now off-limits to the NTDP? If not, does the USHL team who loses a player to the NTDP get some sort of compensation, considering that both teams are in the same league? Besides Hohmann, you'd have to imagine that Jay Williams, Nick Malysa, Brian Cooper, Jordan Schmaltz, etc are now prime targets for the NTDP. This could get interesting.

I've been wondering that for a while now but I haven't seen any answers. I'm sure USA Hockey and the USHL have some kind of arrangement worked out.

Hotsauce 05-13-2009 01:11 PM

Even if there is an agreement in place between the NTDP and USHL.

It should be a choice made by the kid though for who he signs with.

First, he would have to have "made" a USHL team, and then have a spot offered to them by the NTDP.

Exile: You mention Jay Williams as a potential goalie recruit for the NTDP? I thought goalies were set at NTDP. Mahalak and Williams got highly drafted by OHL and USHL futures and rejected by NTDP. CHL gains USHL gains NTDP loss...

Riddle me this...Why take Boyd and Boucher in USHL Future draft? Wasted pick on kids already signed committed to NTDP for 2 years....

hugehockeyfan88 05-13-2009 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Exiled One (Post 19550325)
I wonder how they're going to work that out? Are all the '93's drafted yesterday now off-limits to the NTDP? If not, does the USHL team who loses a player to the NTDP get some sort of compensation, considering that both teams are in the same league? Besides Hohmann, you'd have to imagine that Jay Williams, Nick Malysa, Brian Cooper, Jordan Schmaltz, etc are now prime targets for the NTDP. This could get interesting.

I have heard that the NTDP will get the player over the USHL team getting the player.

The Exiled One 05-13-2009 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotsauce (Post 19550990)
Exile: You mention Jay Williams as a potential goalie recruit for the NTDP? I thought goalies were set at NTDP.

Whoops, didn't mean to include him.


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