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-   -   Value of: Jake Gardiner to Toronto? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=646886)

bobermay 05-31-2009 10:40 AM

Jake Gardiner to Toronto?
 
Well... with Brian Burke in Toronto...and the former GM of Anaheim... he will know a thing or two about this kid.

I'm just wondering... what would it take to get him to Toronto??

bobermay 05-31-2009 03:26 PM

So... Umm... Whats good value? :neener:

Maybe:
To Anaheim: Tomas Kaberle, Jiri Tlusty
To Toronto: Jake Gardiner, 1st 09, Josh Brittain

:dunno:

Inigo Montoya 05-31-2009 03:27 PM

:leafs
Jake Gardiner

:ducks
Anton Stralman

?

Not sre how Anaheim would feel about this since Gardiner is a top prospect in their system, but Burke and Wilson have not displayed too much of a liking for Stralman so far this season.

suprvilce 05-31-2009 03:36 PM

Deals for unproved prospects never happen unless its a part of a bigger trade.

jax00 05-31-2009 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hntrmn (Post 19748835)
So... Umm... Whats good value? :neener:

Maybe:
To Anaheim: Tomas Kaberle, Jiri Tlusty
To Toronto: Jake Gardiner, 1st 09, Josh Brittain

:dunno:

Done

Schenn 05-31-2009 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hntrmn (Post 19748835)
So... Umm... Whats good value? :neener:

Maybe:
To Anaheim: Tomas Kaberle, Jiri Tlusty
To Toronto: Jake Gardiner, 1st 09, Josh Brittain

:dunno:

remove tlusty and brittain, and put in an anaheim 2nd

Talentless Practise* 05-31-2009 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DucksRule00 (Post 19751210)
Done

Why do we want those players?

EucaLEAFtys 05-31-2009 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TML Rebuild (Post 19748844)
:leafs
Jake Gardiner

:ducks
Anton Stralman

?

Not sure how Anaheim would feel about this since Gardiner is a top prospect in their system, but Burke and Wilson have not displayed too much of a liking for Stralman so far this season.

Well, let's do a little comparison:

1) Both of these guys are top prospects on their respective teams. (According to HF, both are currently rated at 8.0C.)
2) Both of these guys are of relatively equal size and weignt.
3) Both of these guys are very good young offensive D-men.
4) Stralman has NHL experience under his belt while Gardiner has none.
5) Stralman is pretty much NHL-ready. Don't know if Gardiner is ready yet.
6) Stralman is less physical than Gardiner.

I'm reasonably sure that Burke would want Gardiner, since it was Burke who drafted him. As such, Burke would have a very good idea as to what Gardiner's NHL potential could end up becoming. On the other hand, Burke also has a good idea of Stralman's NHL potential.

It's not a matter of Burke and Wilson not liking Stralman. Burke and Wilson don't want to give NHL chances to those who they feel haven't deserved them yet because they both want their players properly prepared for the NHL life. They want their young prospects to dominate in the AHL first before bringing them up to the parent club so that the player can contribute in a meaningful way once they get there. Stralman has performed much better this past season since his demotion (as has Tlusty, for that matter).

With Gardiner playing in the NCAA, it's not as likely that he will be ready to step into the NHL next season, although it is possible.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not Anaheim can afford to wait for Gardiner to develop properly. If Anaheim feels they can wait, then you can forget about this proposal. If Anaheim feels that they can't wait, then you may see this proposal occur.

My personal feeling? I feel it's a good proposal for both sides. Toronto is re-building and can afford to wait; Anaheim is in more of a "win now" mode and can't really afford to wait for Gardiner, especially when there's an NHL-ready prospect in Stralman who can help Anaheim now.

Vipers31 05-31-2009 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hntrmn (Post 19748835)
So... Umm... Whats good value? :neener:

Maybe:
To Anaheim: Tomas Kaberle, Jiri Tlusty
To Toronto: Jake Gardiner, 1st 09, Josh Brittain

:dunno:

I don't think the Ducks will be moving Gardiner for anything but ridiculous overpayment, and their definition for this may begin far higher than most expect. For all we've been told Gardiner was the guy they have been looking at for a long time going into the draft and traded down as they believed he'd slip by a couple of other teams. He's the kind of prospect the Ducks have loved for a while, with McNab playing a great role in the university scouting.

The offer is not bad considering value; I guess that is somewhat close to what Kaberle would end up being dealt for. However, I don't think the Ducks are willing or able to make a deal like this. The prospect pool has been very improved last year, but is still not as deep as that it would be sensible to send away what probably would be the two best prospects in the system in Gardiner and whoever the Ducks pick in the first round this year. While Kaberle's contract isn't bad at all, tt has become obvious how important it is to have a good group of young players on entry level deals in order to fit a really good team under the cap. If I was the GM, I would certainly not feel offended, but I could not pull the trigger.

mcphllp 05-31-2009 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talentless Practise (Post 19751360)
Why do we want those players?

why wouldnt you?

EucaLEAFtys 05-31-2009 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schenn29 (Post 19751351)
remove tlusty and brittain, and put in an anaheim 2nd

This is something that I agree with. The Leafs can't afford to trade their best top-line prospect for a potential 3rd-line grinder with size.

I would even consider Stralman straight-up for Gardiner.

Paul4587 05-31-2009 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys (Post 19751628)
Well, let's do a little comparison:

1) Both of these guys are top prospects on their respective teams. (According to HF, both are currently rated at 8.0C.)
2) Both of these guys are of relatively equal size and weignt.
3) Both of these guys are very good young offensive D-men.
4) Stralman has NHL experience under his belt while Gardiner has none.
5) Stralman is pretty much NHL-ready. Don't know if Gardiner is ready yet.
6) Stralman is less physical than Gardiner.

I'm reasonably sure that Burke would want Gardiner, since it was Burke who drafted him. As such, Burke would have a very good idea as to what Gardiner's NHL potential could end up becoming. On the other hand, Burke also has a good idea of Stralman's NHL potential.

It's not a matter of Burke and Wilson not liking Stralman. Burke and Wilson don't want to give NHL chances to those who they feel haven't deserved them yet because they both want their players properly prepared for the NHL life. They want their young prospects to dominate in the AHL first before bringing them up to the parent club so that the player can contribute in a meaningful way once they get there. Stralman has performed much better this past season since his demotion (as has Tlusty, for that matter).

With Gardiner playing in the NCAA, it's not as likely that he will be ready to step into the NHL next season, although it is possible.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not Anaheim can afford to wait for Gardiner to develop properly. If Anaheim feels they can wait, then you can forget about this proposal. If Anaheim feels that they can't wait, then you may see this proposal occur.

My personal feeling? I feel it's a good proposal for both sides. Toronto is re-building and can afford to wait; Anaheim is in more of a "win now" mode and can't really afford to wait for Gardiner, especially when there's an NHL-ready prospect in Stralman who can help Anaheim now.

Gardiner is a project, he isn't meant to make the team straight after being drafted and IMO has much higher upside than Stralman. The Ducks expect him to be a Scott Niedermayer type player for them in the future, and if he is able to realise his full potential I don't see that being too unrealistic...

Talentless Practise* 05-31-2009 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcphllp (Post 19751669)
why wouldnt you?

Why would we?

Vipers31 05-31-2009 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys (Post 19751628)
With Gardiner playing in the NCAA, it's not as likely that he will be ready to step into the NHL next season, although it is possible.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not Anaheim can afford to wait for Gardiner to develop properly. If Anaheim feels they can wait, then you can forget about this proposal. If Anaheim feels that they can't wait, then you may see this proposal occur.

My personal feeling? I feel it's a good proposal for both sides. Toronto is re-building and can afford to wait; Anaheim is in more of a "win now" mode and can't really afford to wait for Gardiner, especially when there's an NHL-ready prospect in Stralman who can help Anaheim now.

I think this is a good overall assessment of the situation, however, I disagree about the conclusion. Patience has been an attribute the Ducks have not been lacking in developing their prospects, so you can be pretty much 100% sure the Ducks will wait for Gardiner. They seemed to have a preference towards college players for a while and knew what kind of waiting period they would be in with Jake and for all I know nothing happened to change their minds considering it being worth the wait.

That said, it's pretty much a fact he will not be in the NHL this year. Next year is the earliest and still very questionable, especially given the patience the Ducks have shown with their prospects. It seemed to have worked rather well for them, so I they will feel even more confident with this approach.

Vipers31 05-31-2009 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talentless Practise (Post 19751750)
Why would we?

Because one is a very good defenseman and the other is a decent prospect?

You can argue the price, you can't argue the material.

Talentless Practise* 05-31-2009 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipers31 (Post 19751821)
Because one is a very good defenseman and the other is a decent prospect?

You can argue the price, you can't argue the material.

There has to be a need in order for there to be a trade.

Vipers31 05-31-2009 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talentless Practise (Post 19751856)
There has to be a need in order for there to be a trade.

It's not hard at all to find a need for the Ducks to do the trade. We would be a better team the day we do this trade than we were before for at least two years. We also don't know whether Scott is going to return, yet.

You see, I do think everything points towards Scotty coming back and I already have said I would not do the deal. But it's really not hard to see that about every team would "want those players".

Randall Graves* 05-31-2009 08:25 PM

Gardiner is going nowhere he played fantastic for the Badgers and showed lots of improvement

snarktacular 05-31-2009 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipers31 (Post 19751821)
Because one is a very good defenseman and the other is a decent prospect?

You can argue the price, you can't argue the material.

The Ducks don't need more big-money D. Pronger, Whitney, possibly Niedermayer all 4+ million. Wizniewski and possibly Beauchemin will get 2-4.

Anaheim might consider trading Gardiner for a young scoring forward (one who will play on the team for multiple years). Toronto really doesn't have that. Tlusty might work, but is more of a playmaker. Possibly Kulemin, but he's probably not quite good enough to make up for Gardiner's potential (although who knows how likely) upside.

Talentless Practise* 05-31-2009 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipers31 (Post 19751975)
It's not hard at all to find a need for the Ducks to do the trade. We would be a better team the day we do this trade than we were before for at least two years. We also don't know whether Scott is going to return, yet.

You see, I do think everything points towards Scotty coming back and I already have said I would not do the deal. But it's really not hard to see that about every team would "want those players".

So i'm assuming you want Wade Redden too.

Why is it that you always have to bee so ****ing pissy about everything? You know god damn well Kaberle is a downgrade, a huge one, from either Scotty or Pronger. And you should know god damn well we won't trade for a d-man making 4.25M per year.

Why do we want a d-man we can't afford regardless of value?

EucaLEAFtys 05-31-2009 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul4587 (Post 19751692)
Gardiner is a project, he isn't meant to make the team straight after being drafted and IMO has much higher upside than Stralman. The Ducks expect him to be a Scott Niedermayer type player for them in the future, and if he is able to realise his full potential I don't see that being too unrealistic...

You may be entirely correct about Gardiner being Scott Niedermayer v2.0. But you may also be wrong.

As you've stated, Gardiner is a project who may have a higher upside than Stralman. As I stated earlier, HF currently rates them both equally. That is, however, subject to change either up or down. If Gardiner has a higher up-side than Stralman, would it not be more realistic for Hf to reflect this in their rating formula?

In any event, I think that it all comes down to whether or not Anaheim can afford to wait for Gardiner to develop.

Abyss 05-31-2009 08:38 PM

to base everything around their HF grades is pretty silly. And the fact they are roughly the same size isn't a great thing for Stralman considering Gardiner is 4 years younger...more time to put on the size.

Besides, Stralman tried to put on some weight...and it hurt his game. Wasn't as quick, couldn't make the plays he should be able to.

I think how big he is now is roughly what he'll be, which is too bad because besides the cannon shot and decent passing he's going to get pushed around a lot in his own end.

Gardiner is an excellent prospect, great wheels, great shot and great offensive skills. He's also at a great school that will teach him defense.

I'd be shocked if Anaheim considered this trade.

Vipers31 05-31-2009 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarktacular (Post 19752119)
The Ducks don't need more big-money D. Pronger, Whitney, possibly Niedermayer all 4+ million. Wizniewski and possibly Beauchemin will get 2-4.

Well, I agree we don't. But Scotty is not a given so if he - to my surprise - to call it a career that would open some space. I'm pretty sure Beauch will be gone as he will test the market and the Ducks won't get him for less than $4.5 mio which is more than he's worth.

In no way am I advocating pulling the trigger on the deal - I already said I would not do so. I was just referring to the thoughtless question "why we would want those players"... If you don't know all that much about the Ducks' situation, their approach with prospects, etc. it does not take all that much to think about this as a possibility.

EucaLEAFtys 05-31-2009 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipers31 (Post 19751779)
I think this is a good overall assessment of the situation, however, I disagree about the conclusion. Patience has been an attribute the Ducks have not been lacking in developing their prospects, so you can be pretty much 100% sure the Ducks will wait for Gardiner. They seemed to have a preference towards college players for a while and knew what kind of waiting period they would be in with Jake and for all I know nothing happened to change their minds considering it being worth the wait.

That said, it's pretty much a fact he will not be in the NHL this year. Next year is the earliest and still very questionable, especially given the patience the Ducks have shown with their prospects. It seemed to have worked rather well for them, so I they will feel even more confident with this approach.

Perhaps I didn't phrase my last sentence in that post quite as well as I could have. :laugh:

It juat seemed to me that after the Whitney acquisition at the trade deadline that the Ducks were in a "win now" mode and that they could now use a younger guy like Stralman to help them get there.

Perhaps I was wrong in that assumption. :)

Vipers31 05-31-2009 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talentless Practise (Post 19752174)
So i'm assuming you want Wade Redden too.

What the hell has that to do with anything? I'm not a huge fan of Kaberle, but he's a good defenseman. His contract is decent. Redden's - not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talentless Practise (Post 19752174)
You know god damn well Kaberle is a downgrade, a huge one, from either Scotty or Pronger.

Of course I do and I never said anything contrary. But if (and at this point I better remind - again - of the fact that I would not do the trade...) the Ducks were looking at a player to replace Niedermayer, there would not be many options. Hell, there would be basically no option to replace Niedermayer without a huge downgrade unless one lives in a dreamworld and believes we could sign Bouwmeester for what the market is going to get him. Even with him...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talentless Practise (Post 19752174)
And you should know god damn well we won't trade for a d-man making 4.25M per year.

Yes, I am pretty sure we won't trade for a defenseman. But that is because I am pretty confident Scotty is going to be back. That is a belief and may be saying more than Scott knows himself at this very moment. It's not ridiculous for fans around the league to believe that he indeed might retire after he thought about doing so for a very long time before, and that the Ducks, a team that has been built from their defense, might be looking for a defenseman to fill the gap. Of course, Kaberle is not even close to Niedermayer. But one could very easily get the idea.


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