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-   -   In regards to Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom, etc. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=663472)

Jussha 07-14-2009 01:43 PM

In regards to Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom, etc.
 
There has been quite some debate lately with some of the players listed above, and how Holland has handled them lately and their contracts, and how they are possibly hurting the team now but Holland is too loyal to get rid of them and such.

I agree that if these players were gone and replaced with others, we are likely a better team as they seem to be hurting us more than helping us when they are on the ice. Because of this, they appear to hurt us more too because of what their contracts are right now.

In response to this a number of ppl think Holland should either waive or trade them.

I admit doing such would improve the team, and could have helped us in keeping Hossa, etc.

However, as many have noted as well, that is not how Holland and the wings operate, and maybe it is gonna be detrimental to this team this coming season and maybe even prevented us from winning the cup this past season (ie. Homer was horrendous in the finals and yes I was very upset with his play), but do you as a fan not take pride in the way Detroit does treat its players?

I'm not saying you are wrong if you think Holland should trade them now because their contracts are hurting the team for what they bring to the table, but in comparison to the rest of the NHL teams, in the past 15-20 teams, we are still the most successful team in terms of playoffs and stanley cups, and, we are probably the only team that has players play out the entire careers with us.

Yzerman
Lidstrom (likely)

And we are in a position to have that occur with a number of other players as well

Zetterberg
Franzen
Holmstrom
Datsyuk

Although Maltby and Draper were not drafted by our organization, they pretty much have been career red wings, and imo Holland probably realizes they are not worth their contracts right now, but I think he would rather honor the contract he gave them and the services they performed for this team, and allow them on their own terms to retire as a wing once their current contracts run out.

I think once those contracts are up, Holland will realize they can no longer be on the team, and give them that opportunity to retire a wing, but if they still want to play, then unfortunately he will let them go and they will lose that luxury of getting to retire as a wing.

Like I said, I agree that if we got rid of them now we likely are a better team, but it does not guarantee a cup victory anyways, and for the success we have garnered in the past 15 years, do not think it is worth it to tarnish the image we have established by all of a sudden dumping these players who have devoted practically their entire careers to our organization. If Holland decides to give 2 year contract renewals to these players at the end of their current contracts, then I will question his competence as our GM. But for now, I want to give these perhaps washed up players the chance to finish out their careers in Detroit, and instead will believe in some of our younger players to step up and improve their overall games (ie. Filppula, Kronwall, Helm, etc.) to give us a shot at winning it all in the next year or two. Next year likely will be a down year for us and we don't make it as far come playoff time, but for all the success we have had a chance to be a part of as a fan, I don't think we should be mad with Holland or management.

Booyah! 07-14-2009 02:58 PM

I have no problem with the Wings hanging onto Holmstrom until his contract runs out. As I remember, Holmstrom left money on the table as well to stay with the Wings, he was as good as Ryan Smyth around the nets and paid 1/2 that amount. The same is not true for Maltby and Draper, both guys were given contracts on par or even exceeding their worth, they have been well rewarded for their loyalty here and their play the last few seasons has deteriorated rapidly. The Wings are clearly a classy organization, they treat their veterans well, they treat their superstars well and give them the respect they deserve. The Wings are committed to winning each year and without missing a beat are always in contention for a Cup. They have a culture of winning and class that transends sports, this is why they get players to stay in Detroit more so then how they treat Maltby and Draper. I suggest they go to one or the other (prefer Maltby) and say we want to trade you, which team would you like to play for and work out a deal. That is class, there is nothing wrong with that. I contend that the Wings will not be viewed as a classless organization if they get rid of one or the other.

doublejack 07-14-2009 03:11 PM

What I see are two different but related topics here.

1. Should Holland remain so loyal, or should he run the team more like a business?

This topic touches on the image & environment that are part of what attracts players to Detroit. We treat players very well. Some go so far as to say Ilitch treats them like family, almost as his own kids.

First, the fact that this team is a perennial cup contender vastly outweighs the player friendly environment as the primary reason players want to come here. Atlanta or Florida could treat players like kings and I doubt many of the good ones would want to sign there. Winning matters.... a lot! As long as we ice a competitive team, and I see no reason that would change in the immediate future, we'd remain one of the attractive destinations.

Secondly, Holland has had to make "tough" decisions in the past. He bought out Whitney, McCarty and Hatcher. He waived Osgood and Cujo. Lang, Fedorov and Shanahan didn't leave on good terms. Datsyuk almost defected to Russia, and Markov did.

The point is, it's unrealistic to think that in every single circumstance we can put a player above the team. This is a business. Tough decisions are inevitable. Some players won't like how their time here comes to an end. That's life. But overall, the majority of the time we can remain loyal and continue to treat players the right way.

Would our image take a hit if we axed Draper, Maltby and/or Homer? Perhaps. But any impact would be very minor. These players know that if Holland decides it is time for them to move on then they simply aren't good enough to contribute here anymore. Most likely they'll thank the organization for a good run and move on with life.


2. Has Holland learned from his mistakes, and will he change his management style accordingly?

Holland made a similar mistake with Chelios. He handed out one too many contracts to the grizzled veteran. The direct cost was Quincey, but at least there were no secondary costs. It was only a one year mistake. Holland saw the light and gave Chelios the talk, so problem solved going forward. We have no further cap hit from Cheli.

However, there are three additional mistakes still on the roster, those being the topic of this thread. I know these players bring intangibles to the locker room, but intangibles don't win hockey games (IMO anyway). Talent and hard work do. These players are running short on talent in the present, to the point that hard work can't make up for it any longer.

So, perhaps Holland is hesitant to move any of the dead weight because of point 1. I don't agree with that line of thinking, but at least I understand it. The other consideration is, has Holland learned? Does he know now it was stupid to let Draper pick his own term? Kenny should have had him on the one year at a time plan, and not offered two and three year deals as well. The same goes for Maltby and Homer. Holland could have avoided the whole mess if he did things differently.


The bottom line here is if keeping Chelios cost us Quincey, I can say that the dead weight trio have cost us Samuelsson and/or Hudler and/or Hossa. Instead of more productive players, we're overpaying lesser players because we're loyal. :help: Eventually that practice leads to a non-contending team, and then we may begin really having trouble attracting free agents.

SirKillalot 07-14-2009 04:07 PM

Think it's a bit funny about how many who just want to get rid of 15 years of Red Wings history in a heartbeat.

Of the three guys, only one should go. And that's sadly Maltby. He doesn't provide us anything that one of the younger guys can't do. He's kind of like McCarthy, had his much appriciated long stint here, but at this point. Sorry Maltby.

Draper gives us the puck a whole lot, and he can still play. Mostly PK, but also some 3rd/4th lines minutes.

Holmström takes so much beating, hopefully he is having a good summer with some specialized training. Holmström is a guy every other team love to hate, and we love to have him. On the same line as Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

caseygraves 07-14-2009 04:32 PM

Gang, when Holland resigned Homer he was a 30 goal scorer. Of course you would sign a 30 goal scorer to a longer term. What kind of player treatment would that be to sign him to one year?

Booyah! 07-14-2009 04:33 PM

While I agree with most of your comments, I find it funny that people should be kept around just because they've been here for 15 years already. Like that's earned them the right. They've been very well compensated, they've won their Cups and got their glory. At some point you have to cut ties, it has already cost the team this year, you don't think that if Holland had increased his offer to Hossa by 500k he wouldn't have stayed? Samuelsson already knew he was gone because the Wings didn't even approach him about re-signing until the season was well over with. This was because Sammy knew there was no money and he wasn't a priority and it was all because their money was already tied up in the above players.

Booyah! 07-14-2009 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseygraves (Post 20424541)
Gang, when Holland resigned Homer he was a 30 goal scorer. Of course you would sign a 30 goal scorer to a longer term. What kind of player treatment would that be to sign him to one year?

Holmer was left off my list because the Wings signed him for a bargain. My beef is with Maltby and Draper, especially the former

caseygraves 07-14-2009 04:35 PM

Oh and also Draper was coming off of a 15 goal season.

Sure Holland is the greatest GM ever, but he cannot predict the future, sorry to disappoint you there.

detredWINgs 07-14-2009 05:09 PM

The way I see it, this isn't our best chance to win the Cup this year, so why would Holland even think about going the classless route and offing Homer, Maltby, and Draper? Let the former two play out their contracts this year.

This year is as much a "rebuilding" year for the Wings as it gets. Just let them be.

Booyah! 07-14-2009 05:09 PM

Sure he could. In the sense that he knew in today's salary cap world Draper's contract was not a bargain unlike others. If Holland would've offered Draper a 1yr or 2yr deal, would the fans have been offended? Why the longer term deal?

detredWINgs 07-14-2009 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booyah! (Post 20424571)
Holmer was left off my list because the Wings signed him for a bargain. My beef is with Maltby and Draper, especially the former

Nobody likes what Maltby brings to the table anymore, but his 883k is hardly an overpayment given the market.

RabbinsDuck 07-14-2009 05:11 PM

In a non-cap world, you can afford to dole out some nice money to your grizzled veterans and allow them to stick around, but not any more. Maybe with one or two guys, but not to the extent that Holland does.

Even if he kicked these guys to the curb today, he and the Red Wings organization would still be one of the most accomodating and classy organizations in regards to player treatment. How many teams have as many players playing 1,000+ games in the same uniform as the Red Wings? I have a feeling it is not even close.

Yes, it is part of what makes the team such a destination for free agents, but I believe a compromise is in order, in a cap world.

Booyah! 07-14-2009 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detredWINgs (Post 20425002)
The way I see it, this isn't our best chance to win the Cup this year, so why would Holland even think about going the classless route and offing Homer, Maltby, and Draper? Let the former two play out their contracts this year.

This year is as much a "rebuilding" year for the Wings as it gets. Just let them be.


Oh really? Is that what he told Franzen and Zetterberg when they re-upped? The Wings obviously will not win a Cup every year but the biggest reason guys take less to stay here is because they know they're committed to winning it each year, that is what makes ownership so special. Doublejack is right, if players were treated great in Atlanta, does that mean there'd be a stampede of players to sign there? Of course not. Draper and Maltby have outlived their usefulness, it has already cost us a few of our own ufa's all because of loyalty. Maltby and Draper were given above market contracts for where they were in their careers, and if I remember correctly they were always well paid relative to their peers. Holmstrom took a discount, Lidstrom took a huge discount, at what point does keeping guys like Maltby around for the sake of goodwill hurt your ability to field a team that has a legitimate shot at the Cup?

Booyah! 07-14-2009 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detredWINgs (Post 20425027)
Nobody likes what Maltby brings to the table anymore, but his 883k is hardly an overpayment given the market.

it's 2x league minimum, think he's worth that when he signed his deal?

probertrules24 07-14-2009 05:42 PM

I agree some of the contracts could of cost us keeping the free agents but the way I see it.

Holmstrom has been a warrior for this team for 12 season. Nobody takes as much punishment as him in the entire league.

Draper still wins faceoffs and Babcock loves that. He still has speed and can play a defensive role. 15 seasons on the Wings.

Maltby has put up the same amount of points as he had in 05/06 and makes under 900k this year. 13 seasons on the Wings.

Sure playing a Maltby may mean keeping a youngster down in the minors for 1 more year but after this year he will be off the books. I think the loyalty that the Wings show to there vets goes along way. This along with a winning mentality is why they are able to sign free agents and convince players to come here.

I understand that being a wings fan we expect to be in the finals every year but who knows this team isn't as good as last years on paper but they still have there core guys all signed and ready to prove something.

After next year out of the 3 Draper may be the only one left and I think the loyalty shown will only help this franchise. I guarantee it's not only fans that see this but the players around the league as well.

solo16 07-14-2009 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booyah! (Post 20425115)
it's 2x league minimum, think he's worth that when he signed his deal?

I thought the league min was over 575k for next year...

garry1221 07-14-2009 07:51 PM

The bottom line, and people are finally starting to say it is. When the contracts were signed for malts, drapes, and homer, they were well worth the contract. As said, homer was coming off a 30 goal season. Maltby took a big paycut. Draper if i remember correctly was coming off his selke winning season. Could be wrong on him, but i think he was. So there you have it, these players were all coming off big years and all still contributing at a pretty high to high level. You can't fault Holland for handing out the contracts he did, because at the time they were worth every penny.

Another beef I've got is the assumption that having these 3 under contract is what cost us huds, sammy, and hossa. We didn't lose these 3 due to the players under contract already. These players were lost because Holland stuck with the belief that everyone wants to stay a Wing and will take less to be here. With the exception of sammy, who didn't get any negotiation prior to season's end, if Holland would have negotiated with Huds and Hossa like the other one wasn't a factor, we probably could have had at least 1 under contract right now.

Winger98 07-14-2009 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garry1221 (Post 20426760)
The bottom line, and people are finally starting to say it is. When the contracts were signed for malts, drapes, and homer, they were well worth the contract. As said, homer was coming off a 30 goal season. Maltby took a big paycut. Draper if i remember correctly was coming off his selke winning season. Could be wrong on him, but i think he was. So there you have it, these players were all coming off big years and all still contributing at a pretty high to high level. You can't fault Holland for handing out the contracts he did, because at the time they were worth every penny.

Another beef I've got is the assumption that having these 3 under contract is what cost us huds, sammy, and hossa. We didn't lose these 3 due to the players under contract already. These players were lost because Holland stuck with the belief that everyone wants to stay a Wing and will take less to be here. With the exception of sammy, who didn't get any negotiation prior to season's end, if Holland would have negotiated with Huds and Hossa like the other one wasn't a factor, we probably could have had at least 1 under contract right now.

And wasn't it being reported that Holland made an offer he expected would likely be signed ($3m per) before getting submarined by the Russians? I still maintain that Franzen being signed so cheaply made Hossa a bonus in Holland's eyes. And the play of Helm, Abdelkader and Leino made it easier to soft bid on Sammy, Kopecky and Hudler.

Being able to play it conservatively last summer and keep the team together was a luxury we should have known wouldn't last into this offseason. It was clear that this was a time when their could be some fairly significant roster moves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by probertrules24 (Post 20425382)
I agree some of the contracts could of cost us keeping the free agents but the way I see it.

Holmstrom has been a warrior for this team for 12 season. Nobody takes as much punishment as him in the entire league.

Draper still wins faceoffs and Babcock loves that. He still has speed and can play a defensive role. 15 seasons on the Wings.

Maltby has put up the same amount of points as he had in 05/06 and makes under 900k this year. 13 seasons on the Wings.

Sure playing a Maltby may mean keeping a youngster down in the minors for 1 more year but after this year he will be off the books. I think the loyalty that the Wings show to there vets goes along way. This along with a winning mentality is why they are able to sign free agents and convince players to come here.

I understand that being a wings fan we expect to be in the finals every year but who knows this team isn't as good as last years on paper but they still have there core guys all signed and ready to prove something.

After next year out of the 3 Draper may be the only one left and I think the loyalty shown will only help this franchise. I guarantee it's not only fans that see this but the players around the league as well.

and it should be mentioned that the Wings shouldn't be expected to be celler dwellers next year. Chicago and the void they have between the pipes are supposed to knock us off, or St. Louis or C-Bus are supposed to become superpower. Then we have Anaheim and their magically depleting blueline or SJ overcoming their epic history of playoff shortcomings...

People can say this will be the weakest Wings team in awhile but that's more a testament to the quality of recent wings team than a knock against next year's team. And this summer isn't exactly over.

octopi 07-14-2009 09:06 PM

Draper and Holmstrom are still useful to a point.

Maltby has had difficulty cracking 11 points/season for the last 3/4 seasons and has be a minus every season. :shakehead

Heaton 07-14-2009 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octopi (Post 20427728)
Draper and Holmstrom are still useful to a point.

Maltby has had difficulty cracking 11 points/season for the last 3/4 seasons and has be a minus every season. :shakehead

Just as a point of reference Travis Moen has been a minus player every single season of his career (even being a -10 during their cup winning season) and only scoring more than 11 pts once in his career yet people wanted to pay him 1.5m or more. Not saying Maltby = Moen but...

Same goes for Sami "I should win the Selke" Pahlsson. Only been a plus player once in his career. His career high in points in 26.

Basically, plus/minus doesn't mean much when you're on a line who never scores.

Plamglotis 07-15-2009 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck (Post 20425028)
In a non-cap world, you can afford to dole out some nice money to your grizzled veterans and allow them to stick around, but not any more. Maybe with one or two guys, but not to the extent that Holland does.

Even if he kicked these guys to the curb today, he and the Red Wings organization would still be one of the most accomodating and classy organizations in regards to player treatment. How many teams have as many players playing 1,000+ games in the same uniform as the Red Wings? I have a feeling it is not even close.

Yes, it is part of what makes the team such a destination for free agents, but I believe a compromise is in order, in a cap world.

My main concern (at least in the short term) wouldn't be if the Wings would still be an attractive destination for future free agents but more what a move like cutting Draper and Holmstrom would do to the current team.
It's obviously hard to judge from an outsiders position but from the reports and articles over the years you could get the impression that Draper and Holmstrom (and to some lesser extent also Maltby) are very well liked by their teammates and they also contribute quite a bit to a positive atmosphere in the locker room.
Now imagine a situation where Holland sends Draper and Holmstrom packing and instead signs (just as an example) Mike Comrie for roughly 3 million so that pretty much everyone on the team knows that the former two had to go to make room for him. And then imagine the first time Comrie walks into that locker room...could be a little bit akward, don't you think?

In general I often read here that Holland should treat this team more like a business and these people act like managing a business is all and exclusively about numbers. But every good manager knows (or at least should know) that psychology is almost equally important to the success of a business (for example it is an -empirical- proven fact that employees are less productive after a couple of their co-workers have been fired and on the opposite they are more productive if they identify themselves with the organisation they are working for).
So maybe, just maybe, Holland already runs the Wings like a business but he is just a better manager than a lot of the people on this board...maybe.

doublejack 07-15-2009 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseygraves (Post 20424541)
Gang, when Holland resigned Homer he was a 30 goal scorer. Of course you would sign a 30 goal scorer to a longer term. What kind of player treatment would that be to sign him to one year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseygraves (Post 20424588)
Oh and also Draper was coming off of a 15 goal season.

Sure Holland is the greatest GM ever, but he cannot predict the future, sorry to disappoint you there.

See, that's where I disagree. Holland knew the ages of these players. It's his job to project their play for the length of their next contract. Furthermore, in Draper's case there is the 35-and-over multi-year clause in the CBA that is a known landmine.

Holland handed out a trio of bad contracts. His apologists can attempt to spin the facts, but a bad contract is a bad contract.

solo16 07-15-2009 09:13 AM

I dont think any of the three were or are bad contracts. Would I prefer the cap space used in a different manner sure. But the contract is pretty much fair market value for all three. Id bet people would pay Holmstrom and gasp Maltby even more. I can see alot of teams willing to pay for maltby's experience over 1M but below 1.5M.

doublejack 07-15-2009 09:41 AM

I don't agree. I think your view of those players is tainted by a bias because they're long time Wings.

Drake was a better player when he was bought out than Maltby is now. That's all you need to know about Malts value.

For Draper, I'll use Peca as a comparable. Peca's cap hit last season for the Blue Jackets was $1.3M. He's a UFA right now and can easily be had for less than Draper's cap hit.

Homer is a wildcard because he's so beat up. Who knows what we'll actually get out of him next season. His production dropped off drastically last season, particularly over the second half and into the playoffs. He wasn't close to worth his cost.

Those are bad contracts.

Henkka 07-15-2009 11:08 AM

I've been wondering who are the next scapegoats when Sammy is gone and Lilja's career could be over, but now I've found them.

They will be these 3 guys with these bad contracs. Ok people, blame Holland and start whipping! :sarcasm:


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