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-   -   Proposal: Dallas and Montreal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=669123)

Stephaaane 08-02-2009 02:44 PM

Dallas and Montreal
 
First proposal, ready to get flamed :laugh:

ok here we go

To Dallas: Hamrlik
Plekanec
D'agostini's rights

To Montreal: Brad Richards
Mark Fistric

Dallas deadly needs a top 2 defenceman to go with Robidas, Daley, Niskanen

Montreal,.... very solid 2nd line center and a stay at home defenceman that could, could be the partner of Markov

Zubrus Coffee Maker 08-02-2009 02:51 PM

dallas would not do that

Chaos 08-02-2009 02:57 PM

So Dallas trades their #2 center and pretty much their most physical d-man for an aging d-man thats not a top pairing guy, a guy coming off a big time down year, and a spare part prospect?

DuckEatinShark 08-02-2009 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephaaane (Post 20639002)
First proposal, ready to get flamed :laugh:

ok here we go

To Dallas: Hamrlik
Plekanec
D'agostini's rights

To Montreal: Brad Richards
Mark Fistric

Dallas deadly needs a top 2 defenceman to go with Robidas, Daley, Niskanen

Montreal,.... very solid 2nd line center and a stay at home defenceman that could, could be the partner of Markov

That's a lot of money tied up between Gomez and Richards although I'm not sure how much cap space Montreal has.

Dallas though, would definitely not do this deal. D'agostini's rights are worthless and they will not downgrade from Richards to Plekanec. Plus, they seem to really like Fistric.

One Man Rock Band 08-02-2009 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos (Post 20639142)
So Dallas trades their #2 center and pretty much their most physical d-man for an aging d-man thats not a top pairing guy, a guy coming off a big time down year, and a spare part prospect?

I agree the trade isn't really a good proposal - but D'Agostini is far from a spare part prospect.

We, the Canadiens nation, have ranked him as our #6 prospect - though I might slide him into the Top-5.

He was on pace to score 19-goals as rookie whilst playing half of his shifts with the likes of Gregory Stewart, Georges Laraque, among others.

He needs some work on his defensive positioning. But he puts forth a lot of effort so it should come to him with a more defensive minded coach.

He's got a super long reach, he'll crash the net, he's got decent vision for a winger, and he's got a great shot. I could see him scoring 30-goals down the road. To me - he's a Michael Ryder with a bigger body and more effort.

mcphllp 08-02-2009 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natey2k4 (Post 20639327)
I agree the trade isn't really a good proposal - but D'Agostini is far from a spare part prospect.

We, the Canadiens nation, have ranked him as our #6 prospect - though I might slide him into the Top-5.

He was on pace to score 19-goals as rookie whilst playing half of his shifts with the likes of Gregory Stewart, Georges Laraque, among others.

He needs some work on his defensive positioning. But he puts forth a lot of effort so it should come to him with a more defensive minded coach.

He's got a super long reach, he'll crash the net, he's got decent vision for a winger, and he's got a great shot. I could see him scoring 30-goals down the road. To me - he's a Michael Ryder with a bigger body and more effort.


Oh wow, Top 6 prospect? Geesh, thats pretty high!

Terrible deal, how does this deal give Dallas a top 2 dman? As I dont see one in there

Habsterix* 08-02-2009 03:25 PM

I'd rather go for Steve Ott personally.

mstad101 08-02-2009 03:43 PM

im pretty sure if Montreal wants Richards. itll take LeBlanc to start. Possibly some 1st pick. and a Decent scoring forward.

Altho Dallas didnt get Huge production from Brad last year, he was really good Vet leadership for them. A Healthy year could see him back above the 60 point range. Which will really help what was a Goal starved Stars team last year.

Habsterix* 08-02-2009 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstad101 (Post 20639642)
im pretty sure if Montreal wants Richards. itll take LeBlanc to start. Possibly some 1st pick. and a Decent scoring forward.

Altho Dallas didnt get Huge production from Brad last year, he was really good Vet leadership for them. A Healthy year could see him back above the 60 point range. Which will really help what was a Goal starved Stars team last year.

We already have a 60 points man at over $7 million. No thanks.

Blind Gardien 08-02-2009 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephaaane (Post 20639002)
First proposal, ready to get flamed :laugh:

ok here we go

To Dallas: Hamrlik
Plekanec
D'agostini's rights

To Montreal: Brad Richards
Mark Fistric

I would pass from the Habs POV. I think we already have Gomez, and while Richards is a better player, it's too much money already on guys who aren't real superstar players. If the Stars want Gomez and something for Richards, then we'll talk... :D

But seriously, Hamrlik is once again being underrated in this deal. He's our #2 defenseman until and unless Spacek proves otherwise. That's an important asset on a team. Put that along with our incumbent #2 center in Plekanec, and I don't think you're replacing the impact of those two roles by bringing in Richards. This 2-for-1 does not make the Habs a better team. Even if it gives them the most glamourous player in the deal.

mgeise 08-02-2009 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephaaane (Post 20639002)
First proposal, ready to get flamed :laugh:

ok here we go

To Dallas: Hamrlik
Plekanec
D'agostini's rights

To Montreal: Brad Richards
Mark Fistric

Dallas deadly needs a top 2 defenceman to go with Robidas, Daley, Niskanen

Montreal,.... very solid 2nd line center and a stay at home defenceman that could, could be the partner of Markov

Dallas gets completely ripped. No matter how much Brad Richards gets paid, they would never do that deal. Montreal might not do it either, as that would be a ton of money tied up in the center position long term. The value coming back to Montreal is substantialy higher than going Dallas' way, though.

glovesave_35 08-02-2009 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 20639781)
I would pass from the Habs POV. I think we already have Gomez, and while Richards is a better player, it's too much money already on guys who aren't real superstar players. If the Stars want Gomez and something for Richards, then we'll talk... :D

But seriously, Hamrlik is once again being underrated in this deal. He's our #2 defenseman until and unless Spacek proves otherwise. That's an important asset on a team. Put that along with our incumbent #2 center in Plekanec, and I don't think you're replacing the impact of those two roles by bringing in Richards. This 2-for-1 does not make the Habs a better team. Even if it gives them the most glamourous player in the deal.


Gomez for Richards must be a joke? Richards is the better overpaid player, and the Conn Smythe winner.

How can I say this nicely...Just because a player may be your team's #2 d-man doesn't mean he IS a #2 d-man. Nor does it mean he would be another team's #2. One thing is for certain though, he is paid like a #2 d-man. I'm also looking at the fact that he is a career -60 during the regular season, even though he has scored 564 pts. Even worse, his career postseason +/- is a horrid -34 YIKES! What's worse, is that in 11 different playoff years he has only ever been a plus player once (+1 in 3 games 98-99), and was even once in 03-04. All the rest are minuses. Hamrlik isn't really a Stars type player. I know I'm basing much of my argument on statistics, but even when I've seen him play I've never come away particularly impressed. Should I mention that he makes about as much as Dallas' entire d-corps combined?

Analyzer 08-02-2009 08:17 PM

Can Mark Fistric make a first good pass, be solid defensively while putting up around 30 points, be a leader and eat up a ton of minutes a game ? Since one of the Dallas fans said he,s physical, that's good, now if he can do the other stuff, I'm definitely up for it. If he can't, then no deal as it would not be wise for Montréal to give up their number 2 d and have no one to fill his shoes.

Montréal also can't really do Richards' salary.

beowulf 08-02-2009 08:42 PM

So two of the most overpaid centers in Montreal? Ya that is a good idea.

Blind Gardien 08-03-2009 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glovesave_35 (Post 20642116)
Gomez for Richards must be a joke? Richards is the better overpaid player, and the Conn Smythe winner.

Did you see the smilie?
Quote:

How can I say this nicely...Just because a player may be your team's #2 d-man doesn't mean he IS a #2 d-man. Nor does it mean he would be another team's #2.
I think it depends on which Hamrlik shows up. The first year we had him after signing him, he was almost anybody's #2. Probably #1 in the current Dallas setup. Last season he came back to earth and was more like a decent #3 guy for most teams who wanted to feel competitive. I don't really think he has that 2007-08 season left in him again, but hey, who knows. If he does, he's our #2 and again an easy #2 for most teams in the league. If he doesn't, he's probably #3 behind Spacek. If he's starting the Big Decline and is even worse than last season, well, that would be worrisome, but he's probably still #3 for us.

At any rate, it's still big minutes in a big role on the team, and probably worth much more to us than the upgrade from Plekanec to Richards. It just wouldn't be a sensible deal from a Habs POV. Stars fans are very welcome to similarly disregard it.

Mustafa* 08-03-2009 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 20645749)
Did you see the smilie?
I think it depends on which Hamrlik shows up. The first year we had him after signing him, he was almost anybody's #2. Probably #1 in the current Dallas setup. Last season he came back to earth and was more like a decent #3 guy for most teams who wanted to feel competitive. I don't really think he has that 2007-08 season left in him again, but hey, who knows. If he does, he's our #2 and again an easy #2 for most teams in the league. If he doesn't, he's probably #3 behind Spacek. If he's starting the Big Decline and is even worse than last season, well, that would be worrisome, but he's probably still #3 for us.

At any rate, it's still big minutes in a big role on the team, and probably worth much more to us than the upgrade from Plekanec to Richards. It just wouldn't be a sensible deal from a Habs POV. Stars fans are very welcome to similarly disregard it.

Hammer showed up in the playoffs, he was brilliant in the first half of the season also. When the story on him broke he became a average 3rd guy. If he plays like he's hable to, he would be a top 2 on most teams (Except the Philies, Detroit, Boston, Flames and other crazy stacked defensive teams.)

piqued 08-03-2009 11:11 AM

This trade is doubly funny when you consider that one of the original sticking points in acquiring Richards was that Tampa wanted Fistric included in the deal and Dallas wouldn't concede him and eventually got their way.

ck26 08-03-2009 01:33 PM

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding amongst out-of-town fans about the Stars and Brad Richards.

Yes, he makes more money than his production would suggest he's worth. But no, that's not reason to give him away for free, and no, it doesn't mean he has a net zero or negative value.

Richards is a very good player at a superstar price. Contrast that with Jason Blake, who is a below-average player for a very good player price.

An expensive, lousy vet on a rebuilding team = zero-to-negative value ... trade him for anything, just to move him off the roster, save the cash and get some sort of asset in return.
A super-expensive, very good vet on a contending team = significant value ... don't trade him unless we're getting one hell of a return.

Most of the deals I see involving Richards in this forum over the last couple weeks don't give us a legit center back, leaving us a huge hole on the second line. It's one thing to not pay attention to the Islanders' specific needs or the Leafs' specific needs when they're trading to get younger (because they both need basically everything), but the Stars? A year removed from the western finals? Trading Richards in return for a middling defenseman or a couple of average prospects? Not in a million years.

habsfans333* 08-03-2009 01:48 PM

Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and Mike Smith? That was the deal?

Don't expect much more than that kind of package for a 7.8 millions centre averaging 60pts.

Prendan Brust 08-03-2009 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glovesave_35 (Post 20642116)
Gomez for Richards must be a joke? Richards is the better overpaid player, and the Conn Smythe winner.

How can I say this nicely...Just because a player may be your team's #2 d-man doesn't mean he IS a #2 d-man. Nor does it mean he would be another team's #2. One thing is for certain though, he is paid like a #2 d-man. I'm also looking at the fact that he is a career -60 during the regular season, even though he has scored 564 pts. Even worse, his career postseason +/- is a horrid -34 YIKES! What's worse, is that in 11 different playoff years he has only ever been a plus player once (+1 in 3 games 98-99), and was even once in 03-04. All the rest are minuses. Hamrlik isn't really a Stars type player. I know I'm basing much of my argument on statistics, but even when I've seen him play I've never come away particularly impressed. Should I mention that he makes about as much as Dallas' entire d-corps combined?

About your career -60 point :

He has been a minus player ONCE in the last ten years. His minus 60 comes from the first few years he played in TB, a HORRIBLE team at the time.

Dirty Kari 08-03-2009 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habsfans333 (Post 20648746)
Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and Mike Smith? That was the deal?

Don't expect much more than that kind of package for a 7.8 millions centre averaging 60pts.

You don't like looking at games played do you. Richards averages 70+ points and more importantly has 62 points in 63 playoff games. He is a 6 million dollar player getting payed 7.8. He is overpaid but he has significant value. Interesting a habs fan would say this considering how much you payed for Gomez who is an slightly more inferior player at a similar price.

Blind Gardien 08-03-2009 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cottonking (Post 20648589)
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding amongst out-of-town fans about the Stars and Brad Richards.

Yes, he makes more money than his production would suggest he's worth. But no, that's not reason to give him away for free, and no, it doesn't mean he has a net zero or negative value.

Richards is a very good player at a superstar price. Contrast that with Jason Blake, who is a below-average player for a very good player price.

An expensive, lousy vet on a rebuilding team = zero-to-negative value ... trade him for anything, just to move him off the roster, save the cash and get some sort of asset in return.
A super-expensive, very good vet on a contending team = significant value ... don't trade him unless we're getting one hell of a return.

I see parallels between this perspective of Richards and what should be the general perspective on Hamrlik too. Different players at slightly different overall levels, but still, much more important on the ice than they are being given credit for in some of the cap-centric trade proposals going around.

WeThreeKings 08-03-2009 02:46 PM

Wow.. Montreal fans need to stop making proposals, they're just brutal.

ck26 08-03-2009 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habsfans333 (Post 20648746)
Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and Mike Smith? That was the deal? Don't expect much more than that kind of package for a 7.8 millions centre averaging 60pts.

1) This whole conversation is stupid because nobody on the Stars wants to trade Brad Richards. Stop telling us to lower our expectations, it was a Habs fan who made the proposal.

2) Smith, Jokinen and Halpern is a very good package, but that's apples and oranges because the situations are TOTALLY different.

Tampa was in a rebuild. Like I stated in my previous post -- and Blind Gardien expounded on -- the Stars aren't trying to shed salaries and stockpile assets; we're trying to win the Cup this year. Tampa was trying to dump salary and stockpile assets, not win a Cup this year.

To demonstrate my point, imagine a trade-back for the exact same assets: the Stars would never do it, and the Lightning wouldn't either.

Replacing Richards with Halpern would force the Stars to either a) put Modano back up on the 2nd line (nervous about that) or b) put one of our young wingers into the middle (Eriksson??). Either way ... no thanks. Mike Smith would throw a fit coming to Dallas ... he's 26ish and would be a backup AGAIN, which would derail his career aspirations. And Jussi Jokinen would be thrown back onto the left winger pile that we have in Dallas and would probably end up on a 4th line. We'd likely buy out Halpern because Ott has grown into that checking role over the last couple seasons.

From the Lightning perspective, they'd be giving up their best goalie (whose GAA was a full goal-per-game better than anyone else's last season ... WOW!), adding a huge salary, taking ice time away from Stamkos, and adding two holes to their roster (pretend Jokinen was still with Tampa), for which they'd have to find two more forwards. They'd NEVER do that.

Don't think that what Dallas paid Tampa for Richards 2 seasons ago can be used as a rough guide for what Montreal would have to pay Dallas for Richards now. Apples and oranges.

vipernsx 08-03-2009 04:24 PM

Gomez 7.35, Cammy 6, Gionta 5, and you want to add Richards at 7.8. That's like half the cap budget right there. All on players where the bang for the buck ratio is way down....not a good thing.


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