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FissionFire 08-04-2009 07:19 PM

HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)
 
MOD note: This was originally intended to be an update of the 2008 Top 100 list, but only the top 70 was completed. Link to the completed 2008 Top 100 list is at the bottom of this post.

This is the final list of the Top 70 Hockey Players as determined by the History of Hockey community at HFBoards:

Top 70 Hockey Players
RankNo.PlayerPosHeightWeightCareer
199Wayne GretzkyC6'0"1851978-1999
24Bobby OrrD6'0"1991966-1977;1978-1979
39Gordie HoweRW6'0"2051946-1971;1973-1980
466Mario LemieuxC6'4"2001984-1997;2000-2006
59Bobby HullLW5'10"1911957-1980
62Doug HarveyD5'11"1901947-1969
74Jean BeliveauC6'3"2051950-1951;1952-1971
82Eddie ShoreD5'11"1941924-1944
99Maurice RichardRW5'10"1801942-1960
1077Raymond BourqueD6'0"2191979-2001
117Howie MorenzC5'9"1651923-1937
1239Dominik HasekG6'2"1801990-2008
131Jacques PlanteG6'0"1751952-1973;1974-1975
1433Patrick RoyG6'0"1651984-2003
1521Stan MikitaC5'9"1691958-1980
164Leonard "Red" KellyD6'0"1951947-1967
175Nicklas LidstromD6'2"1901991-Present
185Denis PotvinD6'0"2051973-1988
1910Guy LafleurRW6'0"1851971-1985;1988-1991
207Phil EspositoC6'1"2051963-1981
2116Bobby ClarkeC5'10"1761969-1984
2211Mark MessierC6'1"2051978-2004
2368Jaromir JagrRW6'2"2401990-Present
241Terry SawchukG5'11"1901949-1970
251Glenn HallG5'11"1901952-53;1954-1971
2619Bryan TrottierC5'11"1951975-1994
274Fred "Cyclone" TaylorR/D5'8"1651905-1923
284Edouard "Newsy" LalondeC5'9"1681904-1927;1928
2922Mike BossyRW6'0"1851977-1987
307Ted LindsayLW5'8"1631944-1965
3119Larry RobinsonD6'3"2201972-1992
3219Joe SakicC5'11"1851988-2009
332Viacheslav FetisovD6'1"2151974-1975;1976-1998
3415Milt SchmidtC6"0"1851936-1942;1945-1955
3517Valeri KharlamovLW5'8"1651967-1981
3619Steve YzermanC5'11"1851983-2006
3730Martin BrodeurG6'1"2051991-1992;1993-Present
3810Syl Apps, Sr.C6'0"1851936-1948
3929Ken DrydenG6'4"2071970-1979
405Bill CookRW5'10"1721922-1937
4124Chris CheliosD6'1"1901983-Present
4222Brad ParkD6'0"1901968-1985
435Bernard GeoffrionRW5'9"1701950-1964;1966-1968
4420Vladislav TretiakG6'1"2021968-1984
457/4/11Joe MaloneC5'10"1501910-1924
467Paul CoffeyD6'0"2001980-2001
479Charlie ConacherRW6'0"2101929-1941
487/17Frank BoucherC5'9"1851921-1922;1926-1938;1943-1944
4927Frank MahovlichLW6'1"2051956-1978
5016Marcel DionneC5'8"1851971-1989
517Francis "King" ClancyD5'7"1551921-1937
523Pierre PiloteD5'10"1781955-1969
531Clint BenedictG5'11"1851912-1930
541Bill DurnanG6'0"1901943-1950
5516Henri RichardC5'7"1601955-1975
569Andy BathgateRW6'0"1801952-1968;1970-1971
5722Max BentleyC5'9"1581940-1943;1945-1954
585Aubrey "Dit" ClapperRW/D6'2"1951927-1947
591Walter "Turk" BrodaG5'9"1801936-1943;1945-1952
6017Earl SeibertD6'2"1981931-1946
6124Sergei MakarovRW5'11"1851976-1997
627Tim HortonD5'10"1801949-1974
6312Richard "Dickie" MooreLW5'10"1681951-1965;1967-1968
642Sprague CleghornD5'10"1901910-1928
6521Peter ForsbergC6'0"2051990-Present
664Aurele JoliatLW5'7"1361922-1938
675/16Cy DennenyLW5'7"1681914-1929
6813Boris MikhailovRW5'9"1701969-1981
6917Jari KurriRW6'0"1941977-1998
709Ted KennedyC5'11"1751942-1957

Listed here are links to all the old lists:
HOH Top 100 Final List

Listed here are links to all the discussion threads that went into making this list:
Round 2 Voting Results (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 1 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 2 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 4 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 5 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 6 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 7 (2009 update)
Round 2, Vote 8 (2009 update) (Note that the results of this round were not added to the list)

MXD 08-04-2009 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FissionFire (Post 20665373)
This is the final list of the Top 100 Hockey Players as determined by the History of Hockey community at HFBoards:

NOTE: Please report any errors via PM to FissionFire

Top 100 Hockey Players
RankNo.PlayerPosHeightWeightCareer
199Wayne GretzkyC6'0"1851978-1999
24Bobby OrrD6'0"1991966-1977;1978-1979
39Gordie HoweRW6'0"2051946-1971;1973-1980
466Mario LemieuxC6'4"2001984-1997;2000-2006
59Bobby HullLW5'10"1911957-1980
62Doug HarveyD5'11"1901947-1969
74Jean BeliveauC6'3"2051950-1951;1952-1971
82Eddie ShoreD5'11"1941924-1944
99Maurice RichardRW5'10"1801942-1960
1077Raymond BourqueD6'0"2191979-2001

Listed here are links to all the old lists:
HOH Top 100 Final List

Listed here are links to all the discussion threads that went into making this list:
Round 2 Voting Results
Round 2, Vote 1 (2009 version)
Round 2, Vote 2 (2009 version)

Listed here are links to all the lists than went into creating the master aggregate list and the voting record of each participant:
TBA

Kindof went up as I expected, with the biggest change being Richard and Harvey swapping places.

Outside99* 08-07-2009 12:59 AM

Until Valeri Kharlamov is in the top 5, the list lacks credibility. He is considered the greatest russian player who ever lived so if he's going to be on this list, he has to be top 5. Keep in mind, Canada could not stop this guy during the 1972 super series until bobby clarke "intervened". PS - i'm not russian.

Dark Shadows 08-07-2009 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outside99 (Post 20691441)
Until Valeri Kharlamov is in the top 5, the list lacks credibility. He is considered the greatest russian player who ever lived so if he's going to be on this list, he has to be top 5. Keep in mind, Canada could not stop this guy during the 1972 super series until bobby clarke "intervened". PS - i'm not russian.

As one of Kharlamov's biggest supporters and a guy who watched many many games he played in, I am laughing very very hard at your post.

Making statements like that and then questioning our credibility?:biglaugh:

Kharlamov is in the Lafleur/Jagr/Bossy tier, not the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe tier.

And I rank him much higher than most.

Many many people question whether or not Kharlamov is even the greatest Russian of all time, let along a top 5 all time player. I do agree he is the greatest Russian, but you should probably do a little research.

Start Here.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=624953
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=621672
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=592565
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=574899
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=565254

MXD 08-07-2009 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outside99 (Post 20691441)
Until Valeri Kharlamov is in the top 5, the list lacks credibility. He is considered the greatest russian player who ever lived so if he's going to be on this list, he has to be top 5. Keep in mind, Canada could not stop this guy during the 1972 super series until bobby clarke "intervened". PS - i'm not russian.

- Canada could so much not stop him that... non-partner Alex Yakushev was the best scorer?

- I mean, you do realize that I could have said the same thing about Maurice Richard... but that I also would have lots more of material to back up my claim? (For the record, I didn't even have Richard in my top-5)

ck26 08-07-2009 10:42 AM

Is there anyone on the planet who thinks Valeri Kharlamov would have even made an impact in the Summit Series had Bobby Orr been there to match up against him?

TheDevilMadeMe 08-07-2009 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cottonking (Post 20693508)
Is there anyone on the planet who thinks Valeri Kharlamov would have even made an impact in the Summit Series had Bobby Orr been there to match up against him?

Of course he would have had an impact. He was the USSR's best player. Would his impact have been as great? Doubtful - Canada would have had a much easier time at the Summit Series if they had their best player.

Triffy 08-07-2009 01:44 PM

I thought cottonking tried to make a case for Orr.

seventieslord 08-07-2009 06:45 PM

Someone I know is putting together a detailed study that Makarov is actually better than Kharlamov. I'm all ears, because based on the empirical data, like points finishes, all-stars, mvp voting, and international play, Makarov appears to have a major edge.

VMBM 08-08-2009 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 20698694)
Someone I know is putting together a detailed study that Makarov is actually better than Kharlamov. I'm all ears, because based on the empirical data, like points finishes, all-stars, mvp voting, and international play, Makarov appears to have a major edge.

That's what my eyes tell me too; I think he was a little bit better. It'll never be the universal truth, but at least it would be nice to be able to make such an argument without getting ridiculed.

As far as individual skills go, I'd give Makarov the edge in skating, 1-on-1 skills and goal-scoring. This is based on 30 games or so that I've seen. Then again, I'm no hockey analyst or haven't really 'studied' it, so it would be interesting to see what a more of an expert is going to say.

VMBM 08-08-2009 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 20701613)
That's what my eyes tell me too; I think he was a little bit better. It'll never be the universal truth, but at least it would be nice to be able to make such an argument without getting ridiculed.

As far as individual skills go, I'd give Makarov the edge in skating, 1-on-1 skills and goal-scoring. This is based on 30 games or so that I've seen. Then again, I'm no hockey analyst or haven't really 'studied' it, so it would be interesting to see what a more of an expert is going to say.

Just to add: of course Makarov probably had some big advantages, like playing on teams that were mostly better-coached and physically stronger plus he had Fetisov and Kasatonov on defense, but I'm sure all this will be taken into consideration. :)

MXD 08-08-2009 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 20701670)
Just to add: of course Makarov probably had some big advantages, like playing on teams that were mostly better-coached and physically stronger plus he had Fetisov and Kasatonov on defense, but I'm sure all this will be taken into consideration. :)

I think you forgot to take in consideration that Kharlamov had two Top-100 players on his unit.

Dennis Bonvie 08-08-2009 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 20702042)
I think you forgot to take in consideration that Kharlamov had two Top-100 players on his unit.

But Makarov played on perhaps the best 5 man unit ever to play together for an extended period.

As for the "seeing is believing" approach, Kharlamov looked to be the more gifted player to me.

MXD 08-08-2009 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 20702115)
But Makarov played on perhaps the best 5 man unit ever to play together for an extended period.

As for the "seeing is believing" approach, Kharlamov looked to be the more gifted player to me.

I don't disagree with you, but the post you were quoting sounded like Kharlamov's regular partners were Sergei Berezin, Andrei Lomakin, Igor Ulanov and Andrei Zyuzin.

I'm also of the approach that says : It's not the skill that matters; it's what you do with it.

Dennis Bonvie 08-08-2009 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 20702136)
I don't disagree with you, but the post you were quoting sounded like Kharlamov's regular partners were Sergei Berezin, Andrei Lomakin, Igor Ulanov and Andrei Zyuzin.

I'm also of the approach that says : It's not the skill that matters; it's what you do with it.

I think its safe to say that all of the great Soviet players played mostly with other great Soviet players. While the 5 man unit Makarov played on was perhaps the best, you are correct in stating that its not a huge gap to the other great Soviet units. It makes me wonder, if the USSR did not fall apart how good would the Federov, Bure, Mogilny, Konstantinov, ?(maybe Gonchar, Kasparaitis) unit have been.

VMBM 08-10-2009 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 20702042)
I think you forgot to take in consideration that Kharlamov had two Top-100 players on his unit.

Khrushchev and Bretzhnev?

And Makarov had Krutov and Larionov, I don't think it's that much worse, if at all. But on defense, Fetisov-Kasatonov were the big advantages that Kharlamov didn't have. Vasiliev-Gusev/Lutchenko wasn't quite up there.

But like I said, IMO Makarov was slightly better than Kharlamov - no matter the 'different era' or anything - and it would be interesting to see a comprehensive analysis on the subject.

Kyle McMahon 08-10-2009 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 20718482)
Khrushchev and Bretzhnev?

And Makarov had Krutov and Larionov, I don't think it's that much worse, if at all. But on defense, Fetisov-Kasatonov were the big advantages that Kharlamov didn't have. Vasiliev-Gusev/Lutchenko wasn't quite up there.

But like I said, IMO Makarov was slightly better than Kharlamov - no matter the 'different era' or anything - and it would be interesting to see a comprehensive analysis on the subject.

I suspect Mikhailov and Vasiliev are the two top-100's being referred to.

I don't think there's all that big of a gap between Fetisov and Vasiliev as far as defensemen go, but in terms of offense obviously Fetisov would have been a big advantage as you've stated.

From all I can gather, Kharlamov is considered the greatest Soviet hockey player by the Russians themselves. They should know a lot better than myself, so I'll take their word for it until I see a really convincing case for someone else. The fact that Tretiak's MVP voting record is so much better has made me think about moving him ahead, but as it stands I still have Kharlamov first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 20702136)
I don't disagree with you, but the post you were quoting sounded like Kharlamov's regular partners were Sergei Berezin, Andrei Lomakin, Igor Ulanov and Andrei Zyuzin.

I'm also of the approach that says : It's not the skill that matters; it's what you do with it.

Hey! The Soviets would have been absolutely invincible with Igor out there! (That's the guy in my avatar btw ;))

TheDevilMadeMe 08-10-2009 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 20724991)
I suspect Mikhailov and Vasiliev are the two top-100's being referred to.

I don't think there's all that big of a gap between Fetisov and Vasiliev as far as defensemen go, but in terms of offense obviously Fetisov would have been a big advantage as you've stated.

From all I can gather, Kharlamov is considered the greatest Soviet hockey player by the Russians themselves. They should know a lot better than myself, so I'll take their word for it until I see a really convincing case for someone else. The fact that Tretiak's MVP voting record is so much better has made me think about moving him ahead, but as it stands I still have Kharlamov first.

My thoughts exactly. As for Tretiak's MVP voting record, I think at least part of that is that he was far better than every other Soviet goalie, so he stood out more in comparison. For some reason, the USSR/Russia has never been as good at developing goaltenders as it has been at the other positions.

Dennis Bonvie 08-10-2009 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 20724991)
I suspect Mikhailov and Vasiliev are the two top-100's being referred to.

I don't think there's all that big of a gap between Fetisov and Vasiliev as far as defensemen go, but in terms of offense obviously Fetisov would have been a big advantage as you've stated.

From all I can gather, Kharlamov is considered the greatest Soviet hockey player by the Russians themselves. They should know a lot better than myself, so I'll take their word for it until I see a really convincing case for someone else. The fact that Tretiak's MVP voting record is so much better has made me think about moving him ahead, but as it stands I still have Kharlamov first.



Hey! The Soviets would have been absolutely invincible with Igor out there! (That's the guy in my avatar btw ;))

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, from what I've heard the Russian fans & players have a greater appreciation for the aesthetics of the game. They would probably rank Lafleur higher in this poll than most North Americans. Could be why Kharlamov is considered the best. They love those lovely(style-wise) players.

Kyle McMahon 08-10-2009 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 20725427)
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, from what I've heard the Russian fans & players have a greater appreciation for the aesthetics of the game. They would probably rank Lafleur higher in this poll than most North Americans. Could be why Kharlamov is considered the best. They love those lovely(style-wise) players.

That is very true, and it's something that has crossed my mind as well. Kharlamov is definitely a case where the legend may have outgrown the player. But most Canadians who watched him in the Summit Series felt he was the best as well, though that is a small sample size and Kharlamov was apparently at his absolute peak right around that time.

Canadiens1958 08-10-2009 06:35 PM

Comparisons
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 20725427)
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, from what I've heard the Russian fans & players have a greater appreciation for the aesthetics of the game. They would probably rank Lafleur higher in this poll than most North Americans. Could be why Kharlamov is considered the best. They love those lovely(style-wise) players.

You raise an interesting point. European fans tend to appreciate players for their perceived performance on the large Olympic sized rink in events or short series while North American fans tend to appreciate perceived performance on the standard NHL rink over seasons and playoffs.

The Lafleur / Kharlamov analogy is interesting. Off ice they had issues with motor vehicles. Lafleur was involved in two serious one car accidents - first in 1971, just after being drafted by the Canadiens, he rolled his car driving from Quebec to Montreal. Kharlamov was also involved in two serious car accidents, paying the ultimate price in the second one.

Canadiens1958 08-10-2009 06:46 PM

Kharlamov
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 20725557)
That is very true, and it's something that has crossed my mind as well. Kharlamov is definitely a case where the legend may have outgrown the player. But most Canadians who watched him in the Summit Series felt he was the best as well, though that is a small sample size and Kharlamov was apparently at his absolute peak right around that time.

If you look at the Soviet stats from the Summit Series you will see that Alexander Yakushev led the Soviets in scoring followed by Vladimir Shadrin. Kharlamov made an instant impression in Canada in game one but then slowly came down to earth whereas Yakushev's performance grew as the series progressed.

http://www.1972summitseries.com/sovietroster.html

Also Valeri Kharlamov was the most penalized Soviet player. He gave as good as he got BUT the apologists who want to paint Bobby Clarke as a villain tend to overlook such behavior.

Kyle McMahon 08-10-2009 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 20725786)
If you look at the Soviet stats from the Summit Series you will see that Alexander Yakushev led the Soviets in scoring followed by Vladimir Shadrin. Kharlamov made an instant impression in Canada in game one but then slowly came down to earth whereas Yakushev's performance grew as the series progressed.

That's the thing though: Even if the numbers may not support it, almost every Canadian who witnessed the Summit Series live will instantly tell you that Kharlamov was the best they had to offer, just like the Russian fans. And of course many Canadian fans are tend to be a lot more biased towards displays of grit and courage, like the Russian fans tend to be with explosive speed or maneouvering. Despite those differences, many Canadians who watched tend to agree with the Russians on Kharlamov. Was everybody "deceived", for lack of a better term?

MXD 08-10-2009 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 20725998)
That's the thing though: Even if the numbers may not support it, almost every Canadian who witnessed the Summit Series live will instantly tell you that Kharlamov was the best they had to offer, just like the Russian fans. And of course many Canadian fans are tend to be a lot more biased towards displays of grit and courage, like the Russian fans tend to be with explosive speed or maneouvering. Despite those differences, many Canadians who watched tend to agree with the Russians on Kharlamov. Was everybody "deceived", for lack of a better term?

Maybe, but on the other hand...
It's not the skill that matters.
It's what you do with it.

Canadiens1958 08-10-2009 07:34 PM

First Impressions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 20725998)
That's the thing though: Even if the numbers may not support it, almost every Canadian who witnessed the Summit Series live will instantly tell you that Kharlamov was the best they had to offer, just like the Russian fans. And of course many Canadian fans are tend to be a lot more biased towards displays of grit and courage, like the Russian fans tend to be with explosive speed or maneouvering. Despite those differences, many Canadians who watched tend to agree with the Russians on Kharlamov. Was everybody "deceived", for lack of a better term?

First impressions carry a lot of weight.

In game one of the Summit Series Kharlamov scored the two secong period goals that broke the 2-2 first period deadlock. The resulting Soviet victory forever changed perceptions about NHL and
Soviet hockey.

http://www.1972summitseries.com/game1recap.html

In game eight, Paul Henderson scored the game/series winning goal in the last 31 seconds. Henderson also scored the game winning goal in games six and seven. While Henderson's goals are laudible people manage to keep them in perspective to the rest of his career an no one makes a case that Henderson is a Top 100 player.

The same balance should be brought to other analysis.


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