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FissionFire 08-11-2009 02:23 AM

Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)
 
Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (36):
BM67, Canadiens1958, Canadiens Fan, cottonking, DaveG, Dennis_Bonvie, EllisToLeafsNation, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, Jekyll, Jungosi, Kyle McMahon, lextune, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, NOTENOUGHBREWER, overpass, papershoes, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, quoipourquoi, Radovsky, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shirtless Joe, Spitfire11, Sturminator, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGoldenJet, tommygunn, Triffy, ushvinder, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

FissionFire 08-11-2009 02:28 AM

*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 3 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 8/16. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 8/16, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots. Please submit all ballots via PM to FissionFire or email them to hohtop100@yahoo.com

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 3 will be for places 21 through 30 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Mike Bossy
Bobby Clarke
Viacheslav Fetisov
Glenn Hall
Jaromir Jagr
Valeri Kharlamov
Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
Ted Lindsay
Mark Messier
Larry Robinson
Joe Sakic
Terry Sawchuk
Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
Bryan Trottier
Steve Yzerman

TheDevilMadeMe 08-11-2009 03:54 AM

No Brodeur OR Dryden? Wow... how low have people been ranking the goalies?

Especially considering Sawchuk and Hall were up last time... no way they are that many spots ahead of Brodeur and Dryden.

Nalyd Psycho 08-11-2009 03:59 AM

I had Glenn Hall in my 20th spot for voting last round, but, oddly enough, he won't top my list. That honour will go to Fredrick Wellington Taylor.

Should be plenty to discuss this round.

TheDevilMadeMe 08-11-2009 04:04 AM

Since submitting my list, I've become convinced that Cyclone Taylor was significantly better than his contemporay Lalonde. Basically, he dominated the PCHA more than Lalonde dominated the NHA, AND after they merged, players form the PCHA generally ranked higher in scoring, etc, showing that its stars were a bit better than the old NHA stars.

Is this a correct assessment?

Howe Elbows 9 08-11-2009 04:07 AM

Here are these players rankings on last years list:

RankPlayer
19Terry Sawchuk
21Glenn Hall
22Bobby Clarke
23Ted Lindsay
24Mark Messier
25Jaromir Jagr
27Mike Bossy
28Bryan Trottier
29Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
30Valeri Kharlamov
32Larry Robinson
33Joe Sakic
35Viacheslav Fetisov
36Steve Yzerman
41Fred "Cyclone" Taylor

So it looks like Cyclone Taylor is getting more votes this year.

For this voting round, I hope to find time to discuss Clarke, Kharlamov, Jagr vs. Messier, Lalonde, Fetisov vs. Robinson and Taylor. Fetisov is probably my favorite player from this round (but not the best player from this round, in my opinion).

Nalyd Psycho 08-11-2009 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 20729782)
Since submitting my list, I've become convinced that Cyclone Taylor was significantly better than his contemporay Lalonde. Basically, he dominated the PCHA more than Lalonde dominated the NHA, AND after they merged, players form the PCHA generally ranked higher in scoring, etc, showing that its stars were a bit better than the old NHA stars.

Is this a correct assessment?

Yes and no.

What you say is true, but there are two caveats.

1. The main reason Lalonde was less dominant was Joe Malone. Malone was better than the 2nd best PCHAer. Arguably the best goal scorer of the three.

2. By the time the East and West merged, it was a new generation of talent. And the two leagues were so close that one can't say the West had a systemic favour. So it mostly is used to prove that assumptions that Western leagues were weaker is a false assumption.

Hockey Outsider 08-11-2009 12:33 PM

Here is some raw data that may be useful.

Hart trophy voting record

PLAYER FIRST SECOND THIRD FOURTH FIFTH TOTAL
F Jagr 1 4 1 1 7
F Clarke 3 1 1 5
F Trottier 1 2 1 1 5
G Hall 1 2 2 5
G Sawchuk 1 2 1 4
F Messier 2 1 3
F Bossy 1 1 2
F Yzerman 1 1 2
F Sakic 1 1
F Lindsay 1 1
D Robinson 1 1
D Fetisov* 0
F Lalonde** 0
R Taylor*** 0

* Fetisov played most of his prime before arriving in the NHL.
** Lalone played part of his prime in the NHL, but that was before the Hart trophy was first awarded in 1924 (excluding the 1 NHL game he played in 1927)
*** Taylor never played in the NHL.

lextune 08-11-2009 12:39 PM

The only thing that is certain at this point is that I'll have Clarke first and Bossy second.

Hockey Outsider 08-11-2009 12:51 PM

Here's my post from the last vote. I feel strongly that Trottier was better than Bossy and deserves to be ranked higher.

Hereís my case for why Bryan Trottier is better than Mike Bossy. My opinion is mostly based on watching hours of videos of both of them (their best years were a bit before my time) but Iíll try to keep the arguments as objective as possible.

Offense. Bossy is generally remembered as the better scorer because he hit the magic 50-goal mark so many times. However, Trottierís offense is greatly underrated and Bossyís advantage in goal-scoring is nearly offset by Trottierís advantage in playmaking. These two players had fantastic chemistry and excellent, complementary skillsets, so itís a stretch to say that either player was clearly better than the offensively.

Statistically, Bossy outscored Trottier by an average of just 9.1 points per year (9%) during their ten years together (playing virtually the same number of games in total). Bossyís advantage is very small and, I will show later, that Trottierís advantages in other areas more than make up for this. Trottierís numbers took a serious nosedive in 1985 (scoring just 59 points); excluding that fluke year, Bossyís advantage is just 3 points per year. (Itís worth noting that during Trottierís fluke year, Bossyís scoring dropped to its lowest level in six years). In the playoffs, the difference is even smaller. During their ten years together, Bossy averaged 16 points per playoff year while Trottier averaged 15.1 pts, a small 6% advantage.

Defense. Trottier is a vastly superior defensive player. Even during his offensive prime, Trottier was frequently used on the penalty kill, threw big hits, and was assigned to shut cover opponentsí top players. Trottier placed in the top ten in Selke voting four times (1981, 1984, 1986, 1988) and finished as high as second in voting (1984; runner-up to Doug Jarvis).

I generally donít like plus/minus, but itís pretty useful here because both players were linemates for an entire decade. Looking at the ten years they played together, Trottier was +422 and Bossy was +381, despite the fact that 1) Trottier generally played more of a defensive role and 2) Bossy outscored Trottier by about 90 points in total. Again, plus/minus is generally limited but since weíre comparing two players from the same team and era, itís a pretty good indicator of who was more valuable to the Islanders.

Hart voting. Thereís no doubt whatsoever that Trottier was considered the better player while both were in the league together. Trottier won 1 Hart trophy; he was runner-up twice (to Gretzky and Lafleur); and he finished third once (to Gretkzy/Langway). In contrast, Bossy was only in the top three once, and he finished behind Trottier that year! Trottier has more top three appearances (4-1) and more top five appearances (5-2). He would have won two Harts if not for Gretzky.

During their ten years together, Trottier earned a total of 493 pts in Hart voting versus just 86 for Bossy. Trottier was clearly regarded as the more valuable player at the time.

The rest of Trottierís career. My analysis so far has only taken into account the ten years Trottier and Bossy played together. Trottier added to his legacy both before and after Bossy was in the NHL. Trottier scored 95 points as a rookie (finishing in the top ten in assists); his main linemates were Jean-Paul Parise and Billy Harris. He had decent sophomore season and looked strong in the playoffs (10 pts in 12 games) as the Islanders lost to the Canadiens in the conference finals. This proved that even a young Trottier could produce at all-star levels without Bossy.

After Bossy retired, Trottier had one more strong offensive year (82 pts in 1988 at age 32) before turning into a purely defensive forward. Trottier was the third line center on Mario Lemieuxís two Cup-winning teams and was responsible for all of the key defensive assignments. Into his late 30s, Trottier was slower and a bit less physical, but still played with the same tenaciousness and excellent positioning he was known for. Trottier was at his best in the 1992 Cup finals, completely frustrating Roenick. The bottom line is, we can project Bossyís career all we want, but Trottier proved that he was actually an elite scorer and defensive player without his linemate.

Conclusion. Iíve shown that Bossyís advantage, offensively, it very small and it doesnít come close to offsetting Trottierís advantages in defense, approval from peers and longevity. Bossy was the better goal-scorer, but Trottier was the better hockey player and should be voted in first.

TheDevilMadeMe 08-11-2009 12:55 PM

These are my tentative rankings. Gaps intentional:

Mark Messier
Jaromir Jagr
Valeri Kharlamov
Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
Mike Bossy

Larry Robinson
Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
Viacheslav Fetisov
Bobby Clarke
Bryan Trottier
Joe Sakic

Terry Sawchuk
Steve Yzerman
Ted Lindsay
Glenn Hall

I love Sakic's clutch performances (1996 Cup, 2001 Cup, 2002 Olympics) and actually had him above Trottier and Clarke on my initial list. But I have problems voting him onto this list above his contemporary Brodeur, who was best or near best at his position far more often.

If someone can convince me that Sawchuk or Hall is significantly better than the other, I might rocket one up my list. As is, I consider both behind Brodeur and both on about the same level as Dryden. And all of them a step back from the Big 3 goalies.

Is Sawchuk really that much different than Ken Dryden if Ken Dryden had left the dynasty Canadians after 5 years and then gone on to have 10+ years of average play?

Is Hall is basically Brodeur with less competition for regular season awards* and less success in the postseason for whatever reason?

*Sawchuk's decline began before Hall started winning awards, and Plante played in Montreal where he was unfairly seen as a product of Harvey until Harvey left, and then in NY, where he put up awful numbers. Also, Vezina winners like Theodore and Carey probably wouldn't have been in the league to put up their fluke seasons, with only 6 teams. Brodeur played half his career behind Hasek on a team with airtight defense, so it was hard to seperate the goalie from the team (similar to how Plante - Hall's primary competition - was hurt in the awards voting before Harvey left).

RabbinsDuck 08-11-2009 12:56 PM

Of the two defensemen up this round, I have a hard time understanding how Robinson ended up ahead of Fetisov last year... is that still the sentiment?

TheDevilMadeMe 08-11-2009 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck (Post 20732661)
Of the two defensemen up this round, I have a hard time understanding how Robinson ended up ahead of Fetisov last year... is that still the sentiment?

I think they are a tossup. Robinson had the physical intimidation factor that Fetisov lacked.

They are obviously hard to compare, since Fetisov is on the list due to his play in the USSR, not NHL.

lextune 08-11-2009 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider (Post 20732572)
Offense. Bossy is generally remembered as the better scorer because he hit the magic 50-goal mark so many times. However, Trottier’s offense is greatly underrated and Bossy’s advantage in goal-scoring is nearly offset by Trottier’s advantage in playmaking. These two players had fantastic chemistry and excellent, complementary skillsets, so it’s a stretch to say that either player was clearly better than the offensively.

Statistically, Bossy outscored Trottier by an average of just 9.1 points per year (9%) during their ten years together (playing virtually the same number of games in total). Bossy’s advantage is very small and, I will show later, that Trottier’s advantages in other areas more than make up for this. Trottier’s numbers took a serious nosedive in 1985 (scoring just 59 points); excluding that fluke year, Bossy’s advantage is just 3 points per year. (It’s worth noting that during Trottier’s fluke year, Bossy’s scoring dropped to its lowest level in six years). In the playoffs, the difference is even smaller. During their ten years together, Bossy averaged 16 points per playoff year while Trottier averaged 15.1 pts, a small 6% advantage.

...

Conclusion. I’ve shown that Bossy’s advantage, offensively, is very small and it doesn’t come close to offsetting Trottier’s advantages in defense, approval from peers and longevity. Bossy was the better goal-scorer, but Trottier was the better hockey player and should be voted in first.

Obviously the defensive advantage goes to Trotts, and the goal scoring advantage to Bossy, Mike being arguably the greatest sniper in NHL history, finishing top five in goals 8 out of his 10 seasons, (and 7th one other year).

If we call those a wash, (which I don't really, but I will here for the sake of debate), I still think Bossy's overall offensive advantage is greater than your post indicates.

In 18 seasons Trottier finished in the top ten six times. Bossy, in only 10 seasons, finished in the top ten eight times. Six of those eight seasons he finished in the top five, as opposed to Bryan's three top five finishes.

Being in the top five twice as much is more than just a small advantage for me.

Canadiens1958 08-11-2009 01:52 PM

The Cyclone Taylor Dilemma
 
I will grant that Cyclone Taylor was hockey's first great innovator - demonstrating the value of play making, the necessity for defensemen to be able to skate backwards, the best rover and an overall great player BUT when all is said and done you have to look at the results.

Playing for Vancouver in the PCHA, Taylor was the league's best player from 1913 to 1920 but Vancouver even though they had other excellent HOF quality players(goalie/defense/forward) during this period was not a dominant team, five of the eight seasons saw them at or below .500. The two best seasons were war years 1915 Stanley Cup and 1917. Taylor dominated in 1915 but it was the only Stanley Cup championship that he contributed to.

Factor out the innovation and the fact that the NHA which did not feature seven man hockey and there is a significant gap in overall performance that favours Lalonde and Malone.

TheDevilMadeMe 08-11-2009 02:09 PM

Here's a comparison of the playoff stats of Trottier and Bossy:

1980-83 (the dynasty)

1980
Bossy 16GP 10-13-23
Trottier 21GP 12-17-29

1981
Bossy 18GP 17-18-35
Trottier 18GP 11-17-29

1982
Bossy 19GP 17-10-27
Trottier 19GP 6-23-29

1983
Bossy 19GP 17-9-26
Trottier 17GP 8-12-20

Total
Bossy 93GP 69-60-129 (1st)
Trottier 96GP 45-76-121 (2nd)

1980-84 (5 straight trips to the finals)

1984
Bossy 21GP 8-10-18
Trottier 21GP 8-6-14

Total
Bossy 103GP 74-66-140 (2nd to Gretzky)
Trottier 106GP 49-78-127 (3rd)

1978-1987 (Bossy's career)

Gretzky 101GP 69-140-209
Bossy 129GP 85-75-160
Trottier 140GP 60-91-151
Kurri 98GP 65-73-138
Messier 100GP 55-68-123

To put Bossy's 85 playoff goals in perspective, here are Gretzky's first 10 years in the league (80-89):
131GP 86-188-274

And Kurri's first 10 years in the league (81-90):
146GP 92-110-202

Bossy had relatively small but distinct advantage over Trottier when it came to playoff scoring (and a much larger advantage when it came to playoff goal scoring). In the 5 years the team made the finals, Trottier had a superior offensive performance in only 1 - the first Cup in 1981. In 83, Trottier had 2 more points, but Bossy had 9 more goals.

Triffy 08-11-2009 02:58 PM

Kharlamov, the greatest Soviet of all time?
 
I'll post this here as well. Here's something regarding Kharlamov. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=671626

Dark Shadows 08-11-2009 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triffy (Post 20734275)
I'll post this here as well. Here's something regarding Kharlamov. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=671626

Their league at the time played a style which was unselfish in terms of individual scoring, passing their way into the zone and finding holes while playing a defensively sound game. It was hard for players to stand out in scoring the system they were playing, much like it is today hard to outscore the competition by a large amount or have consecutive #1 years.

After the Summit series, and super series, the Russian began to seriously incorporate the higher scoring Defensemen jumping into the play and methods of NHL hockey and created a blend that was fierce to play against. Makarov's numbers compared to Kharlamov's in the RSL look like he blows Kharlamov away, but you had to be there to understand the change and why he was scoring so much. It was similar to how the NHL jumped in scoring when Orr Revolutionized the game.

It should be Noted, that before his accident(Which seriously Hampered him), his MVP voting looked like this.

Here are the top 5 In MVP voting in his generation among soviet forwards from 69-76 before his car accident really hobbled him.

Kharlamov: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th
Maltsev: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th
Vikulov: 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Mikhailov: 2nd, 4th, 5th
Yakushev: 3rd, 4th, 5th
Petrov: 2nd, 4th
Firsov: 1st
Starshinov: 3rd

That is very telling.

TheDevilMadeMe 08-11-2009 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jekyll (Post 20734412)
Their league at the time played a style which was unselfish in terms of individual scoring, passing their way into the zone and finding holes while playing a defensively sound game. It was hard for players to stand out in scoring the system they were playing, much like it is today hard to outscore the competition by a large amount or have consecutive #1 years.

After the Summit series, and super series, the Russian began to seriously incorporate the higher scoring Defensemen jumping into the play and methods of NHL hockey and created a blend that was fierce to play against. Makarov's numbers compared to Kharlamov's in the RSL look like he blows Kharlamov away, but you had to be there to understand the change and why he was scoring so much. It was similar to how the NHL jumped in scoring when Orr Revolutionized the game.

It should be Noted, that before his accident(Which seriously Hampered him), his MVP voting looked like this.

Here are the top 5 In MVP voting in his generation among soviet forwards from 69-76 before his car accident really hobbled him.

Kharlamov: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th
Maltsev: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th
Vikulov: 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Mikhailov: 2nd, 4th, 5th
Yakushev: 3rd, 4th, 5th
Petrov: 2nd, 4th
Firsov: 1st
Starshinov: 3rd

That is very telling.

It is very telling. It's also telling that Maltsev absolutely should be somewhere on our list.

Canadiens1958 08-11-2009 03:22 PM

Soviet Hockey
 
What is very important when analyzing Soviet and European hcokey is that prior to the 1972 Summit Series the second assist was very rarely awarded. When looking at the numbers for pre 1972 players this has to be a consideration.

Dark Shadows 08-11-2009 03:28 PM

Hmmm, this is vote 3, for spots 21-30 right? Not vote 2 for 11-20 hehe.


#1 Jaromir Jagr
#2 Mark Messier
#3 Bobby Clarke
#4 Mike Bossy
#5 Valeri Kharlamov
#6 Bryan Trottier
#7 Terry Sawchuk
#8 Larry Robinson
#9 Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
#10 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
#11 Joe Sakic
#12 Steve Yzerman
#13 Viacheslav Fetisov
#14 Ted Lindsay
#15 Glenn Hall

Some significant changes from the last HOH top 100. I was not being entirely true to my own criteria last time around(Forgiving certain players of flaws while penalizing others), and ill admit, Personal grudges against specific players played a part in my voting. This year I am trying to be as impartial as possible. I still value Peak over longevity more than most people and I still have a bit of a demeaning attitude towards pre-Consolidated NHL teams(Otherwise Taylor and Lalonde might be ranked higher)

Dark Shadows 08-11-2009 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider (Post 20732572)
Here's my post from the last vote. I feel strongly that Trottier was better than Bossy and deserves to be ranked higher.

Hereís my case for why Bryan Trottier is better than Mike Bossy. My opinion is mostly based on watching hours of videos of both of them (their best years were a bit before my time) but Iíll try to keep the arguments as objective as possible.

Offense. Bossy is generally remembered as the better scorer because he hit the magic 50-goal mark so many times. However, Trottierís offense is greatly underrated and Bossyís advantage in goal-scoring is nearly offset by Trottierís advantage in playmaking. These two players had fantastic chemistry and excellent, complementary skillsets, so itís a stretch to say that either player was clearly better than the offensively.

Statistically, Bossy outscored Trottier by an average of just 9.1 points per year (9%) during their ten years together (playing virtually the same number of games in total). Bossyís advantage is very small and, I will show later, that Trottierís advantages in other areas more than make up for this. Trottierís numbers took a serious nosedive in 1985 (scoring just 59 points); excluding that fluke year, Bossyís advantage is just 3 points per year. (Itís worth noting that during Trottierís fluke year, Bossyís scoring dropped to its lowest level in six years). In the playoffs, the difference is even smaller. During their ten years together, Bossy averaged 16 points per playoff year while Trottier averaged 15.1 pts, a small 6% advantage.

I can understand how they look similar. Heaven knows that Bossy was the guy running that Offense up front though.

It should be noted that Trottier's fluke "Off" year, was a result of his injury, and that they were not playing together for most of that year. Bossy's linemates that year were Sutter and Tonelli, and he for the most part, elevated them quite well and gave them career years.
Bossy's scoring did not miss a beat without Trottier, unless anyone think s 2-3 goals and a point or two is missing a beat. His points and goals totals barely changed at all, and his +/- did not suffer either.

I have always felt that Bossy had an advantage offensively greater than Trottier's defensive advantage.

Quote:

Defense. Trottier is a vastly superior defensive player. Even during his offensive prime, Trottier was frequently used on the penalty kill, threw big hits, and was assigned to shut cover opponentsí top players. Trottier placed in the top ten in Selke voting four times (1981, 1984, 1986, 1988) and finished as high as second in voting (1984; runner-up to Doug Jarvis).

I generally donít like plus/minus, but itís pretty useful here because both players were linemates for an entire decade. Looking at the ten years they played together, Trottier was +422 and Bossy was +381, despite the fact that 1) Trottier generally played more of a defensive role and 2) Bossy outscored Trottier by about 90 points in total. Again, plus/minus is generally limited but since weíre comparing two players from the same team and era, itís a pretty good indicator of who was more valuable to the Islanders.
I would not say "Vastly" superior myself. Having watched both many many times, I still think Bossy is an underrated defensive player.

He was never a liability as some might claim, nor was he the last guy back. He was always in position, responsible and reliable.

Trottier does get bonus points for more PK time in this category.

Quote:

Hart voting. Thereís no doubt whatsoever that Trottier was considered the better player while both were in the league together. Trottier won 1 Hart trophy; he was runner-up twice (to Gretzky and Lafleur); and he finished third once (to Gretkzy/Langway). In contrast, Bossy was only in the top three once, and he finished behind Trottier that year! Trottier has more top three appearances (4-1) and more top five appearances (5-2). He would have won two Harts if not for Gretzky.

During their ten years together, Trottier earned a total of 493 pts in Hart voting versus just 86 for Bossy. Trottier was clearly regarded as the more valuable player at the time.
This is the part I hate. Hart voting does indeed go to Trottier. It should be noted however, that Bossy was always in the voters Doghouse. He was the guy coming into the league vocally demeaning the league for its violence and fighting and his lack of a physical game, advocating that the league should ban fighting. He was labeled as "Soft" early on, and the label stuck with him, even though he was anything but soft. He would take any amount of punishment, go into any corner or stand anywhere and take crosschecks repeatedly to get a goal.

Trottier by contrast, was always hitting everything in sight and being more "noticeable" in his style. But for my money, Bossy was always right there with Trottier, even if the voters were a bit biased against him.

Triffy 08-11-2009 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jekyll (Post 20734412)
Their league at the time played a style which was unselfish in terms of individual scoring, passing their way into the zone and finding holes while playing a defensively sound game. It was hard for players to stand out in scoring the system they were playing, much like it is today hard to outscore the competition by a large amount or have consecutive #1 years.

After the Summit series, and super series, the Russian began to seriously incorporate the higher scoring Defensemen jumping into the play and methods of NHL hockey and created a blend that was fierce to play against. Makarov's numbers compared to Kharlamov's in the RSL look like he blows Kharlamov away, but you had to be there to understand the change and why he was scoring so much. It was similar to how the NHL jumped in scoring when Orr Revolutionized the game.

Thanks, that's certainly something that needs to be considered every time when comparing Soviet players across the eras. Right now I don't feel like I want to get involved into the discussion whether Makarov was the better player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jekyll (Post 20734412)
It should be Noted, that before his accident(Which seriously Hampered him), his MVP voting looked like this.

Here are the top 5 In MVP voting in his generation among soviet forwards from 69-76 before his car accident really hobbled him.

Kharlamov: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th
Maltsev: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th
Vikulov: 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Mikhailov: 2nd, 4th, 5th
Yakushev: 3rd, 4th, 5th
Petrov: 2nd, 4th
Firsov: 1st
Starshinov: 3rd

That is very telling.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...3#post17229303

There's the table.

So in 1969 he was the best of the players I've compared him to. In 1970 he was 2nd to Maltsev (104 vs. 20 points). In 1971 again 2nd to Maltsev (70-61). In 1972 there was a tie between Maltsev and Kharlamov. In 1973 Kharlamov finally won, altough Petrov was really close (107-104). In 1974 Kharlamov (26) was behind both Mikhailov (67) and Maltsev (38). In 1975 he was again viewed the best player of his line by quite clear margin (81-49 vs. Petrov). 1976 even wider difference.

So 8 seasons, during which he was 3 times viewed the best of the group of players I compared him to. During the same time frame Maltsev was the best player of the group 2 or 3 times, whether you consider the '72 to be a tie or a win for Maltsev.

That would suggest that he was considered the best player of his line during that time span, I'll give you that. It must be noted, though, that a couple of years later Mikhailov won the MVP twice in a row. And during the same years, Petrov won the scoring title.

Dark Shadows 08-11-2009 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 20733613)
Here's a comparison of the playoff stats of Trottier and Bossy:

1980-83 (the dynasty)

1980
Bossy 16GP 10-13-23
Trottier 21GP 12-17-29

1981
Bossy 18GP 17-18-35
Trottier 18GP 11-17-29

1982
Bossy 19GP 17-10-27
Trottier 19GP 6-23-29

1983
Bossy 19GP 17-9-26
Trottier 17GP 8-12-20

Total
Bossy 93GP 69-60-129 (1st)
Trottier 96GP 45-76-121 (2nd)

1980-84 (5 straight trips to the finals)

1984
Bossy 21GP 8-10-18
Trottier 21GP 8-6-14

Total
Bossy 103GP 74-66-140 (2nd to Gretzky)
Trottier 106GP 49-78-127 (3rd)

1978-1987 (Bossy's career)

Gretzky 101GP 69-140-209
Bossy 129GP 85-75-160
Trottier 140GP 60-91-151
Kurri 98GP 65-73-138
Messier 100GP 55-68-123

To put Bossy's 85 playoff goals in perspective, here are Gretzky's first 10 years in the league (80-89):
131GP 86-188-274

And Kurri's first 10 years in the league (81-90):
146GP 92-110-202

Bossy had relatively small but distinct advantage over Trottier when it came to playoff scoring (and a much larger advantage when it came to playoff goal scoring). In the 5 years the team made the finals, Trottier had a superior offensive performance in only 1 - the first Cup in 1981. In 83, Trottier had 2 more points, but Bossy had 9 more goals.

Just to add to this, their finals scoring is highly in Bossy's favor. During the toughest most important games, Bossy delivers at a slightly higher rate.

Finals Scoring:
Bossy: 17 goals and 34 points in 23 games with 4 Penalty minutes.
Trottier: 11 goals and 33 points in 34 games with 46 penalty minutes.

NOTENOUGHBREWER 08-11-2009 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jekyll (Post 20734816)
Just to add to this, their finals scoring is highly in Bossy's favor. During the toughest most important games, Bossy delivers at a slightly higher rate.

Finals Scoring:
Bossy: 17 goals and 34 points in 23 games with 4 Penalty minutes.
Trottier: 11 goals and 33 points in 34 games with 46 penalty minutes.

I assume those 34 for Trottier is including Pens years. What do they look like without?


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