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-   -   Proposal: Ottawa-Chicago Heatley Trade Thread (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=673699)

Andre Benoit Bawls 08-19-2009 03:05 PM

Ottawa-Chicago Heatley Trade Thread
 
Right before the 07-08 season, there was a thread gauging Heatley's trade value. Based on the following post, I would like to make a trade proposal.

"Say the Hawks could offer Kane, Barker, Ruutu, and 1st if Heatley agrees to a 5 year $45 million deal.

Would the Sens consider this?"

This post calls for Heatley to make 9mil a year. He only makes 7.5, so obviously his trade value goes up. At that point, a 1st from Chicago looked like a sure-fire top 5 pick, so that would have to be adjusted. Also, most Sens fans at the time rejected this trade proposal. With that being said, here is my adjusted proposal.

Kane, Kieth, and Sharp for Heatley and Lee.

For a comparison, here is the most recent Hawks-Sens proposal, which is actually the best one I've seen:

To Ottawa:
Sharp (3.9)
Campbell (7.142)
Eager (965,000)

To Chicago:
Heatley (7.5)
Kelly (2.125)
Smith (2.6)


I obviously don't expect Keith, Kane, and Sharp for Heatley, but that wasn't really the point of this thread. The point is, if you're going to make a thread trying to get Heatley in your threads... by god, stop undervaluing the piss out of him, please.

Good day.

**UPDATE:


This post has seemingly become the central forum for Chicago-Ottawa Heatley talk, so I decided to just update the title. Sticky perhaps? No clue. Anyways, lets get the trade talk going!

Beukeboom Fan 08-19-2009 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcrew (Post 20818709)
Right before the 07-08 season, there was a thread gauging Heatley's trade value. Based on the following post, I would like to make a trade proposal.

"Say the Hawks could offer Kane, Barker, Ruutu, and 1st if Heatley agrees to a 5 year $45 million deal.

Would the Sens consider this?"

This post calls for Heatley to make 9mil a year. He only makes 7.5, so obviously his trade value goes up. At that point, a 1st from Chicago looked like a sure-fire top 5 pick, so that would have to be adjusted. Also, most Sens fans at the time rejected this trade proposal. With that being said, here is my adjusted proposal.

Kane, Kieth, and Sharp for Heatley and Lee.

For a comparison, here is the most recent Hawks-Sens proposal, which is actually the best one I've seen:

To Ottawa:
Sharp (3.9)
Campbell (7.142)
Eager (965,000)

To Chicago:
Heatley (7.5)
Kelly (2.125)
Smith (2.6)


I obviously don't expect Keith, Kane, and Sharp for Heatley, but that wasn't really the point of this thread. The point is, if you're going to make a thread trying to get Heatley in your threads... by god, stop undervaluing the piss out of him, please.

Good day.

So let me get this straight - the best indicator for Heatley's current value is a thread from two years ago, when the cap was going up by 10-20% per year, and Heatley was a top 5 scorer in the league who hadn't requested a trade?

That's like saying the Kaberle is worth Jeff Carter & a 1st because that was his value at the 2007 trade deadline.

Andre Benoit Bawls 08-19-2009 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan (Post 20819207)
So let me get this straight - the best indicator for Heatley's current value is a thread from two years ago, when the cap was going up by 10-20% per year, and Heatley was a top 5 scorer in the league who hadn't requested a trade?

That's like saying the Kaberle is worth Jeff Carter & a 1st because that was his value at the 2007 trade deadline.

Yes that's exactly what I'm going for:help:
The point wasn't that I was making a trade proposal, it was telling people to stop the insane undervaluing of Heatley.

Beukeboom Fan 08-19-2009 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcrew (Post 20819231)
Yes that's exactly what I'm going for:help:
The point wasn't that I was making a trade proposal, it was telling people to stop the insane undervaluing of Heatley.

And the "insane undervaluing of Heatley" is based on his value 2 years ago? Do you know how crazy that sounds?

Since then, the following has happened:
1) Heatey production dropped by over 20%, while getting similiar icetime with all-star linemates.
2) He's asked for a trade, and then apparently invoked his NTC a couple of times to avoid being traded somewhere he didn't want to go.
3) The salary cap is flat (and potentially shrinking) compared to 10-15% growth
4) There are almost no teams with available cap space, and teams with cap space don't appear willing to pick up salary at this point in time
5) More and more players have NTC's in affect, which signicantly impact GM's ability to get deals done.

All of those factors play VERY significantly into Heatley's value. Much morese than a thread on HF from a couple of years ago.

I'm not saying the Sens are going to give Heatley away. Just the eventual deal (if made) will include some assets with "issues" (contract term, cap hit, etc) coming back. I agree that the Hawks deal you mention is potentially fair - but I'm not sure if the Hawks would make that deal.

danishh 08-19-2009 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcrew (Post 20819231)
Yes that's exactly what I'm going for:help:
The point wasn't that I was making a trade proposal, it was telling people to stop the insane undervaluing of Heatley.

as opposed to the insane overvaluing of heatley at a time when people thought more of him than ovechkin, crosby, et al?

Dr Grant 08-19-2009 04:13 PM

lol really? Ottawa gets ripped off bad.

Zim 08-19-2009 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcrew (Post 20818709)
Right before the 07-08 season, there was a thread gauging Heatley's trade value. Based on the following post, I would like to make a trade proposal.

"Say the Hawks could offer Kane, Barker, Ruutu, and 1st if Heatley agrees to a 5 year $45 million deal.

Would the Sens consider this?"

This post calls for Heatley to make 9mil a year. He only makes 7.5, so obviously his trade value goes up. At that point, a 1st from Chicago looked like a sure-fire top 5 pick, so that would have to be adjusted. Also, most Sens fans at the time rejected this trade proposal. With that being said, here is my adjusted proposal.

Kane, Kieth, and Sharp for Heatley and Lee.


Good day.

Not including the points previously layed out by Beukeboom the value of those players in the original proposal has skyrocketed since that proposal was made. Kane at the time was an unknown who many people felt was too small to be an impact player in the NHL and Barker was considered a bust by many people. However since that deal was proposed Kane has put up 142pts in 2 years and is now considered to be one of the best young players in the game. Barker has also solidifed himself as one of the best young offensive d-men in the NHL with the posibility of one day becoming a top pairing d-man. Ruutu has also shown that he can remain relatively injury free and put up good numbers.

Zubrus Coffee Maker 08-19-2009 04:28 PM

ok.... you've made your point.

Andre Benoit Bawls 08-19-2009 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zim (Post 20819607)
Not including the points previously layed out by Beukeboom the value of those players in the original proposal has skyrocketed since that proposal was made. Kane at the time was an unknown who many people felt was too small to be an impact player in the NHL and Barker was considered a bust by many people. However since that deal was proposed Kane has put up 142pts in 2 years and is now considered to be one of the best young players in the game. Barker has also solidifed himself as one of the best young offensive d-men in the NHL with the posibility of one day becoming a top pairing d-man. Ruutu has also shown that he can remain relatively injury free and put up good numbers.

I understand that Heatley can't fetch anywhere near that, that's really not the point... All I'm saying is that a drop in production that is a reflection of the coaching (the whole teams production fell in line with his drop) and a trade demand doesn't make him worth Campbell and a 1st.

vecens24 08-19-2009 04:56 PM

Yeah this thread really makes no sense to me. Why are we basing someone's value off of their value two years ago when the players he was offered for werent nearly as valuable as they are now? I mean I think a lot of the Heatley proposals are garbage too but come on... this really makes no sense.

Beukeboom Fan 08-19-2009 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcrew (Post 20819676)
I understand that Heatley can't fetch anywhere near that, that's really not the point... All I'm saying is that a drop in production that is a reflection of the coaching (the whole teams production fell in line with his drop) and a trade demand doesn't make him worth Campbell and a 1st.

That's why the trade proposal we were discussing also included Patrick Sharp - 30 goal guy with great two way play and the Hawks picking up some dead salary in the form of Smith & Kelly.

I understand that all the Heatley crap must be incredibly frustrating from a Sens fan POV, but try to realize Sens fans posting threads like this are just as frustrating for the rest of us.

R0bert0 Lu0ng0 08-19-2009 05:19 PM

Someone should go tell Ray Emery to fire his agent, since his contract is "insanely undervalued" for a guy coming off a conference championship..

salty justice 08-19-2009 05:30 PM

Can you please link the old thread? I've got a bad feeling that I made that awful proposal :help:

mstad101 08-19-2009 07:29 PM

heatley, campoli and a first for Kane and Campbell

OmniSens 08-19-2009 08:12 PM

We don't want Campbell, he had his chance :facepalm:

brevard* 08-19-2009 08:30 PM

I don't really understand the thread. Chicago has no use for Heatley, they are built around a group of guys who like each other. Real or imagined haetlay has a rep and since he is now asking out of his 2nd city it is not all imagined.

At different times during last season many (half) the team has sat for periods of time ranging from a few shifts to a few games for not playing responsibly. Those who have sat included Kane, Sharp and Seabrook.
What happens the 1st or 2nd time the spoiled brat spends a period on the bench? Do the Hawks then have to find another taker?

Campbell had a tough year yet he always manned up ... Most think he was trying too hard because of the contract, yet he still got numbers. Heatley had a decline in numbers and you are all blaming a coach who demands all players be responsible on the ice or play less (Heatley played less) ... That guy would not go over very well in Chicago's system.

johnathan 08-19-2009 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan (Post 20819422)
And the "insane undervaluing of Heatley" is based on his value 2 years ago? Do you know how crazy that sounds?

Since then, the following has happened:
1) Heatey production dropped by over 20%, while getting similiar icetime with all-star linemates.
2) He's asked for a trade, and then apparently invoked his NTC a couple of times to avoid being traded somewhere he didn't want to go.
3) The salary cap is flat (and potentially shrinking) compared to 10-15% growth
4) There are almost no teams with available cap space, and teams with cap space don't appear willing to pick up salary at this point in time
5) More and more players have NTC's in affect, which signicantly impact GM's ability to get deals done.

All of those factors play VERY significantly into Heatley's value. Much morese than a thread on HF from a couple of years ago.

I'm not saying the Sens are going to give Heatley away. Just the eventual deal (if made) will include some assets with "issues" (contract term, cap hit, etc) coming back. I agree that the Hawks deal you mention is potentially fair - but I'm not sure if the Hawks would make that deal.

Very good points to be made however one thing to be noted about his production is that his all-star line mates have done nothing to help increase it. Not that I want to knock Spezza (had the media all over him) or alfie (who I believed was injured most of the season from his back injury last year since he didn't skate nearly as hard) but they have not done much for Heatley this season even with Hartsburg as coach and the lack of experienced PMD.

All they did was skate around in circles pass back and forth and wait for Heatley to get open when he couldn't because they all just stood there. When he finally did get a pass he would already be covered by any defense men and couldn't produce his one timer (of course there were exception to this however the majority of the time that's what happened in the offensive zone on the pp and sometimes 5v5). Production would be the last of my concerns if you were to shop for Heatley.

Rest of your post is spot on.

Rivet52 08-19-2009 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roddy (Post 20820159)
Someone should go tell Ray Emery to fire his agent, since his contract is "insanely undervalued" for a guy coming off a conference championship..

Even though you're talking about Emery in a proposal involving Ottawa and Chicago, I don't know what you're talking about.

Emery is coming off a year overseas and a 2007-2008 season with Ottawa in which he played 31 games and went 12-13-4 with no SO and a 3.13 GAA and .890 SV%. Emery was also involved in various on-ice incidents that season.

He is indeed insanely undervalued like you say.

danishh 08-19-2009 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salty justice (Post 20820286)
Can you please link the old thread? I've got a bad feeling that I made that awful proposal :help:

you are 100% correct. At least you know you have a good memory.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=418818

starts off with the proverbial lowball from edmonton (torres, pitkanen, ANA 1st, and schremp). Apparently they thought schremp had value then too.

then we get this gem: "Malkin for Heatley straight up". Heatley was an impending UFA. Imagine if that had happened.

then more canadian fans (habs and leafs) with lowballs: Lats, Kost, and a 1st and tlusty, wellwood, stajan, 1st, 2nd.

Then saltyjustice shows up with his overpayment.

We get a flames fan with Tanguay + Lombardi (the fairest of this thread so far)

One of my favorites is someone coming in later with 3 trades: statsny, liles, and a 1st; malkin and letang; and havlat, seabrook, and a 1st. damn, i'd love to see that kind of proposal for heatley today.

doan and yandle is pretty rich as well.

Beukeboom Fan 08-19-2009 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivet52 (Post 20822372)
Even though you're talking about Emery in a proposal involving Ottawa and Chicago, I don't know what you're talking about.

Emery is coming off a year overseas and a 2007-2008 season with Ottawa in which he played 31 games and went 12-13-4 with no SO and a 3.13 GAA and .890 SV%. Emery was also involved in various on-ice incidents that season.

He is indeed insanely undervalued like you say.

I think the posters point was that Emery's value coming off a great play-off run was pretty high two years ago as well. Like a bunch of players in the league, a lot has happened since then which has impacted each player's value. Reserrecting an old thread doesn't give a reasonable expectation of their current value - which is a bunch of our points.

R0bert0 Lu0ng0 08-20-2009 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan (Post 20823716)
I think the posters point was that Emery's value coming off a great play-off run was pretty high two years ago as well. Like a bunch of players in the league, a lot has happened since then which has impacted each player's value. Reserrecting an old thread doesn't give a reasonable expectation of their current value - which is a bunch of our points.

Thank you.

The logic that "player x was once worth y and z in return, so he must be worth the same now" is beyond ludicrous, and I don't know how someone thought it could reasonably be argued.

(What's especially amusing is that the players offered for Heatley two years ago have had their careers take off, magnifying the disparity in value even further.)

To take that argument to it's logical conclusion, Chris Chelios won a couple of Norris trophies. He has been traded for one of the leagues top scorers, and then again for an NHL defenseman and two first round draft picks. He signed a contract as a UFA that paid him $5.9m a year. So why is it that he can't find a contract for a fraction of that value now? It's only been five years since that last example..

Anyways the offers we see for Heatley nowadays are what fans think he is worth now.. now that he has played his way off the powerplay on his own team, now that he is not contributing to a winning team and most importantly now that he has forced his team to openly shop him to a limited number of teams.

How can anyone think that doesn't affect his value?

salty justice 08-20-2009 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danishh (Post 20822405)
you are 100% correct. At least you know you have a good memory.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=418818

starts off with the proverbial lowball from edmonton (torres, pitkanen, ANA 1st, and schremp). Apparently they thought schremp had value then too.

then we get this gem: "Malkin for Heatley straight up". Heatley was an impending UFA. Imagine if that had happened.

then more canadian fans (habs and leafs) with lowballs: Lats, Kost, and a 1st and tlusty, wellwood, stajan, 1st, 2nd.

Then saltyjustice shows up with his overpayment.

We get a flames fan with Tanguay + Lombardi (the fairest of this thread so far)

One of my favorites is someone coming in later with 3 trades: statsny, liles, and a 1st; malkin and letang; and havlat, seabrook, and a 1st. damn, i'd love to see that kind of proposal for heatley today.

doan and yandle is pretty rich as well.


At the time Heatley was considered a top 3 forward in the league. Kane was expected to do squat in the NHL other than be a shifty 2nd liner, Tuomo Ruutu was on the verge of retirement, and Cam Barker was considered a big time bust. The 1st was the most valuable part of the deal.

If it makes you feel better I'd much rather have Kane, Ladd, and Barker than Heatley and a 1st today ;)

Zetterberg4Captain 09-04-2009 03:50 PM

Lots of rumours out there surronding Ottawa and Chicago and Heatley.

Could the hawks even afford him if they actually wanted him? If lets say they did, who would logically/have to be moved to make a tarde happen? Could their be a 3rd team in the mix instead? If the hawks got Heatley, as a Wings fan i would cry.

xicethug13x 09-04-2009 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcrew (Post 20818709)
Right before the 07-08 season, there was a thread gauging Heatley's trade value. Based on the following post, I would like to make a trade proposal.

"Say the Hawks could offer Kane, Barker, Ruutu, and 1st if Heatley agrees to a 5 year $45 million deal.

Would the Sens consider this?"

This post calls for Heatley to make 9mil a year. He only makes 7.5, so obviously his trade value goes up. At that point, a 1st from Chicago looked like a sure-fire top 5 pick, so that would have to be adjusted. Also, most Sens fans at the time rejected this trade proposal. With that being said, here is my adjusted proposal.

Kane, Kieth, and Sharp for Heatley and Lee.

For a comparison, here is the most recent Hawks-Sens proposal, which is actually the best one I've seen:

To Ottawa:
Sharp (3.9)
Campbell (7.142)
Eager (965,000)

To Chicago:
Heatley (7.5)
Kelly (2.125)
Smith (2.6)


I obviously don't expect Keith, Kane, and Sharp for Heatley, but that wasn't really the point of this thread. The point is, if you're going to make a thread trying to get Heatley in your threads... by god, stop undervaluing the piss out of him, please.

Good day.

the hawks wouldnt trade any one of these players straight up for heatly let alone all 3 are you joking?
kane is an equal value player to heatly and hes about 8 or 9 years younger...and even after he gets a new contract he will still be between 1.5-2.5 mil cheaper..so no way

keith is a top 10 dman in the league he is far more valuable than heatly and again even after he gets his next contract he weill still be between 1.5 -3 mil cheaper...again no way

and sharp is only slightly less of a player than heatly but i feel he is probably even because sharp alos is a good scorer but he also does more he playes a complete game,kills penalty's and is a good leader and he is paid 3.6 mil less than heatley...

you guys can keep him

LickTheEnvelope 09-04-2009 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harfo1 (Post 20983514)
Lots of rumours out there surronding Ottawa and Chicago and Heatley.

Could the hawks even afford him if they actually wanted him? If lets say they did, who would logically/have to be moved to make a tarde happen? Could their be a 3rd team in the mix instead? If the hawks got Heatley, as a Wings fan i would cry.

The only logical way the Hawks can add Heatley is if they move Campbell...

Still doesn't help them with the biggest problem they will have with is having to re-sign Toews, Kane, Kieth and MORE next July.


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