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-   -   Is there any update on Umberger? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=67751)

RangerBoy 04-04-2004 12:15 PM

Is there any update on Umberger?
 
Would Park or Edge have any update on where the RJ Umberger talks currently stand?Thanks

Edge 04-04-2004 03:15 PM

Last I heard he hadn't impressed them that much both on the ice and in interviews. I can't totally confirm the accuracy of that so take the strictly as a rumor at this point.

jdsrangers 04-04-2004 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Would Park or Edge have any update on where the RJ Umberger talks currently stand?Thanks

He stayed with the Rangers thru the last game at MSG. I'm sure Sather wouldn't keep him with team if their wasn't any interest. Same goes for Umberger.

Gut feeling -- Sather wants to wait until June 1st when he picks up the 16th pick in the second round. Sather has probally told RJ and his agent Brian Lawton, they will match any offer to him and (wink,wink) the extra pick will help the team so RJ wait and you will be rewarded.

Remember RJ wants the rookie cap, he can't be paid more than that. If Sather wants him it is because he will play in the NHL next season, he knows he will get to play with the Rangers and he won't get sent down, like the Pens did to Flury, so he didn't get any bonuses and gets an extra year of low ball $$$.

Reign Nateo 04-04-2004 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsrangers
Gut feeling -- Sather wants to wait until June 1st when he picks up the 16th pick in the second round. Sather has probally told RJ and his agent Brian Lawton, they will match any offer to him and (wink,wink) the extra pick will help the team so RJ wait and you will be rewarded.

Remember RJ wants the rookie cap, he can't be paid more than that.

The NHL has a rule against that, I can't remember where, but there was a link posted on that topic when Canucks fans were deliberating on it. The most recent example is Adam Munro in Chicago, they did not sign him and instead took the pick, he became a UFA and drew zero interest, he played his way into a contract with the Hawks recently, but it was only after every other team looked away. The Rangers will either sign Umberger, or get the pick, not both.

The base salary is not the issue, other wise Umberger would be a Moose right now. Umberger is looking for very exspensive and very attainable bonuses.

The bottom line is that although talented, Umberger is at times unmotivated and dissinterested. His father and agent (Brian Lawton) have given him bad advice and balooned his head up too much. This kid thinks he can play in the NHL and make an impact now, and that is simply not the case. He has missed a very important year of development, and his career is in serious jeopardy right now.

I blame Mr. #98, the ever-arrogant Brian Lawton for RJ's struggles right now.

Potted Plant 04-04-2004 05:07 PM

I have to believe that they traded for Umberger fully intending to sign him to a contract. If he doesn't want to play hockey, then sayonara.

I'll take the #2.

Park #2 04-04-2004 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Would Park or Edge have any update on where the RJ Umberger talks currently stand?Thanks

There's not a lot that I can share, but at this point - there is no immediate need to get anything done.

jdsrangers 04-04-2004 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reign Nateo
The NHL has a rule against that, I can't remember where, but there was a link posted on that topic when Canucks fans were deliberating on it. The most recent example is Adam Munro in Chicago, they did not sign him and instead took the pick, he became a UFA and drew zero interest, he played his way into a contract with the Hawks recently, but it was only after every other team looked away. The Rangers will either sign Umberger, or get the pick, not both.

The base salary is not the issue, other wise Umberger would be a Moose right now. Umberger is looking for very exspensive and very attainable bonuses.



The bottom line is that although talented, Umberger is at times unmotivated and dissinterested. His father and agent (Brian Lawton) have given him bad advice and balooned his head up too much. This kid thinks he can play in the NHL and make an impact now, and that is simply not the case. He has missed a very important year of development, and his career is in serious jeopardy right now.

I blame Mr. #98, the ever-arrogant Brian Lawton for RJ's struggles right now.


If Sather signs him after June 1st...we still can get pick and not break the rules. See this tread of mine from hockeybird.com.

http://hockeyrodent.com/rodentxj.htm

Park #2 04-04-2004 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsrangers
If Sather signs him after June 1st...we still can get pick and not break the rules. See this tread of mine from hockeybird.com.

http://hockeyrodent.com/rodentxj.htm

The league legal office might disagree.... The NHL would certainly investigate the matter and would likely level a fine and a penalty if they found any evidence of intentionally circumventing this rule - or as you put it "agreeing to disagree."

nyr7andcounting 04-04-2004 07:59 PM

The Rangers could get the pick and sign Umberger after June 1st. Just because we don't sign him before he becomes a UFA doesn't mean we are ineligible to sign him. As long as there is no prior agreement as to where Umberger will sign, Sather could take the 2nd rounder knowing in the back of his mind that he can match any offers to Umberger.

jdsrangers 04-04-2004 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Park #2
The league legal office might disagree.... The NHL would certainly investigate the matter and would likely level a fine and a penalty if they found any evidence of intentionally circumventing this rule - or as you put it "agreeing to disagree."

If you were Sather, why would you just give him the rookie max Umberger wants. Umberger wasn't the top pick in the draft -- he was the 16th player picked. Sather has made him a fair offer Umberger wants more $$.

Their is nothing in the rules that states that Sather can't sign him after June 1st. He he signs him after June 1st the Rangers would get the 16th pick in the 2nd round!

Think about it Sather trade Leetch to the Oilers and got a draft pick in return even though you knew Leetch would resign with the Rangers. This is a loophole in the old CBA. Sather wouldn't be breaking any rules he would be taking advantage of the loophole which will be corrected in the next CBA.

P.S.: other teams have done the same thing as Sather did with Leetch to get an extra draft pick. I not saying its right BUT...

jdsrangers 04-04-2004 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting
The Rangers could get the pick and sign Umberger after June 1st. Just because we don't sign him before he becomes a UFA doesn't mean we are ineligible to sign him. As long as there is no prior agreement as to where Umberger will sign, Sather could take the 2nd rounder knowing in the back of his mind that he can match any offers to Umberger.

100% correct!

Park #2 04-05-2004 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting
The Rangers could get the pick and sign Umberger after June 1st. Just because we don't sign him before he becomes a UFA doesn't mean we are ineligible to sign him. As long as there is no prior agreement as to where Umberger will sign, Sather could take the 2nd rounder knowing in the back of his mind that he can match any offers to Umberger.

It is a risk - one that probably isn't worth taking. My bet is that they'd be penalized.

Jackson Ranger 04-05-2004 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting
The Rangers could get the pick and sign Umberger after June 1st. Just because we don't sign him before he becomes a UFA doesn't mean we are ineligible to sign him. As long as there is no prior agreement as to where Umberger will sign, Sather could take the 2nd rounder knowing in the back of his mind that he can match any offers to Umberger.

I agree. From what I've heard, and I've heard some different things, I was under the assumption Umberger wants in the neighborhood of 1.1 mil/year. The Rangers (I thought) offered about 250k less. Which in my mind is a proper negotiating technique since they are the only team that can sign Umberger.

Now, if Umberger and his agent decide to test the free agent market, the Rangers get the second. At this point, depending on how much other teams feel he is worth, the Rangers could "up" their offer to coincide with the other open market offers. Of course, at this point, Umberger will have the hammer so to speak.

My personal opinion is the Rangers will get the second and Umberger, seeing the lack of interest from other teams, signs with his hometown Pens for less than what he could have received from the Canucks and Rangers.

Forechecker 04-05-2004 10:07 AM

I know that Vancouver offered him $800k per year, which he declined, so I'm assuming the offer was in the $880-$900 range.

Personally, if RJ was offered that, and he turned it down, either he's an idiot or getting bad advice. I really see the potential for other teams to pass on him if he hasn't signed, if in fact RJ has spurned two solid offers. Especially after sitting out a year.

jas 04-05-2004 10:08 AM

Are you sure about that?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Forechecker
I know that Vancouver offered him $800k per year, which he declined, so I'm assuming the offer was in the $880-$900 range.

Personally, if RJ was offered that, and he turned it down, either he's an idiot or getting bad advice. I really see the potential for other teams to pass on him if he hasn't signed, if in fact RJ has spurned two solid offers. Especially after sitting out a year.

I thought he was offered $675,000 by the 'Nucks. :dunno:

Fletch 04-05-2004 10:09 AM

Why assume what the offer is?
 
Why assume there was an offer? The only rumor pertaining to any offer was for less than $250K, which isn't all that impossible to comprehend since the only other rumors that have come out is that Umberger hasn't particularly wowed anybody - and that's all we have to go by - no facts, just one unsubstantiated rumor. And when you don't wow, you may not get a serious offer.

Forechecker 04-05-2004 10:13 AM

Well, if the offer is $250k less than the rookie cap ($1.13 MM), than that puts the offer at $880k. I believe the Rangers initial offer was substantiated and reported, so that's not an assumption.

Anyway, what good are message boards if you can't assume, opine, and speculate? ;)

vbox81 04-05-2004 10:50 AM

There is a rule on the books, don't know where, that is put as a catch-all saying you can't go around the "spirit" of the rules, meaning you can't plan to get player and pick in this situation if there was conspiring involved....

RangerBoy 04-05-2004 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas
I thought he was offered $675,000 by the 'Nucks. :dunno:

Vancouver offered RJ Umberger a $700,000 signing bonus

Umberger hasn't played a competitive game since Ohio State was eliminated from the NCAA Championships last year. He sat out this season after rejecting the Canucks' offer of a $700,000 signing bonus with base salaries of $625,000, $650,000 and $675,000 his first three years.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_183699.html

Wonder whatever happened to this?

Rangers general manager Glen Sather apparently agreed to the parameters of a deal with Lawton before the trade was made.

Fletch 04-05-2004 12:11 PM

Forechecker...
 
where was the initial offer reported and substantiated? I only remember one tidbit, from Brooks, which stated less than $250,000; not $250,000 less than the salary cap. Many assumed that's what he meant, but reading through everything he wrote, it was a token offer as the Rangers Brass was not impressed with Umberger. $250K less, or $880K is a substantial offer and a real starting point, that's not a token offer which Brooks suggested. If there's another substantiated report, I'd love to hear it as I obviously missed it.

Forechecker 04-05-2004 12:38 PM

Fletch - My apologies, but I thought that one of our insiders had substantiated the report. There were articles posted here (maybe from the Courant) about the offer, as well, though I must admit in hindsight I fail to recall if an actual amount was mentioned.

My source has told me that the real issue is Lawton, and the Umbie would've signed any deal with Vancouver, just so he could play. But that is truly specualtion.

Fletch 04-05-2004 01:10 PM

That's cool...
 
thought I had missed something. I also heard his dad was part of the reason he didn't sign with Vancouver. We'll see if in the end that's a wise choice. He would've had one NHL season under his belt, $600-something-thousand ($1.3+ million with the signing bonus), with only two more years remaining until he can be negotiating again. Lawton obviously (or not so obvious) didn't want him to sign because it could affect his negotiations with other current and future clients. And his father thinks his boy's worth more.

Park #2 04-05-2004 08:00 PM

Let's wait and see what happens before speculating. There's more to the story then being reported.... Sather had conversations with Lawton well prior trade....

Forechecker 04-06-2004 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Park #2
Let's wait and see what happens before speculating. There's more to the story then being reported.... Sather had conversations with Lawton well prior trade....

Dude, you're like The Shadow: "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of player negotiations, Park#2 knows!". :joker:

Park #2 04-06-2004 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forechecker
Dude, you're like The Shadow: "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of player negotiations, Park#2 knows!". :joker:


Hahaha... Not that mysterious. They had conversations prior to the trade - so people have four options on which to believe.

1) Sather will sign Umberger after the deadline to try and squeeze a pick.
2) Sather never had an intention to sign Umberger and was just getting a pick.
3) Sather had intentions to sign Umberger and get him playing, however has seen questionable signs from him including intelligence, attitude, and skills.
4) Sather is trying to teach a rookie trying to negotiate the max contract a lesson.


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