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-   -   Injury Report: 09-10 Canucks Injury Status (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=678855)

Hedberg 09-08-2009 04:41 PM

09-10 Canucks Injury Status
 
Injuries
PlayerInjuryExpected Back
F Alexandre Bolduc shoulder out for season
D Willie Mitchell concussion ?
F Ryan Johnson broken foot mid-May

Defeatist* 09-08-2009 05:01 PM

Doctors gave him six weeks which would be October 20. I expect him back early November.

Cocomero* 09-08-2009 05:11 PM

We need some permanent templates.

F Pavol Demitra
F Rick Rypien

D Sami Salo

:yo:

Karl Hungus 09-08-2009 05:29 PM

It sounds like Shirokov has been showing some good skill at the prospects camp. Maybe he can fill the void left by Demitra when the season kicks off. Also, October 20th should be right around the nine game mark so Demitra's return will probably be colored by Hodgson's nine game tryout.

Ernie 09-08-2009 10:32 PM

What happens if the Canucks put Demitra on LTIR but he ends up being able to come back early?

Macke* 09-08-2009 10:36 PM

Once someone is put on LTIR they can't come back any early..they have to be out the 10 games/24 days.

Pretty sure.

Wayne Maki 09-08-2009 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie (Post 21022394)
What happens if the Canucks put Demitra on LTIR but he ends up being able to come back early?

He wouldn't be allowed to play until 10 (I think) games have been played since he was put on LTIR.

Wetcoaster 09-08-2009 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie (Post 21022394)
What happens if the Canucks put Demitra on LTIR but he ends up being able to come back early?

Once on LTIR he must miss the 10 games and 24 days.

CalgaryCanuck03 09-09-2009 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wetcoaster (Post 21022891)
Once on LTIR he must miss the 10 games and 24 days.

If Demitra is out for 10 games the cap savings once he is put on the LTIR is, about 0.488M. You add that to about 1.567-1.6M in cap room the Canucks should have after they lose one of Lukowich/O'brien. Total cap room from these two moves, 2.05-2.09M. With Hodgson, and Schneider (no cuts to the defense made) making the team, the Canucks would be currently about 1.415-1.448M over the cap. If Raycroft is the backup, they would be about 0.931-0.964M over the cap. Either way the Canucks get under the cap assuming Demitra misses 10 games.

Ernie 09-09-2009 10:50 AM

Then what's the standard to allow them to go on LTIR? Seems to be a bit of a loophole for a team that's having salary trouble.

Gorge Canuck 09-09-2009 10:58 AM

Demitra seemed to come back early/play through injury's a few times last year. Wouldn't count him out past the 20th.

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 12:25 PM

Report to day in the Vancouver Sun on Demitra and Mathieu Schneider's shoulder injuries.
http://www.canada.com/Demitra+ready/1974311/story.html

Demitra injury sounds more serious than first reported. He had two tears of the rotator cuff repaired as well as bone chips removed during surgery.
Quote:

Veteran winger Pavol Demitra revealed Tuesday he will not be ready after off-season surgery for a torn rotator cuff in his left shoulder.

"I saw the doctors Monday and right now, we've got another six weeks to go," said Demitra, 34.

"That's where we are. I am not supposed to get hit for another four or five weeks. I am shooting for the middle of October but you never know."
...
According to Demitra, doctors found two tears in the rotator cuff, one in front and another in the back. They also discovered bone chips. He was told the recovery period would be 5-6 months.
There is less information on Schneider who also had rotator cuff surgery.
Quote:

Meanwhile, new Canuck defenceman Mathieu Schneider is also rehabbing from a torn rotator cuff and he, too, is uncertain if he'll be ready for Oct. 1. Schneider was injured late last season while playing for the Montreal Canadiens.
However Jason Botchford writes that Schneider may be ready for the regular season:
Quote:

Mathieu Schneider had similar offseason surgery and is hoping to be cleared to start the season with the Canucks.
http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/...%3Fid%3D894638

If Demitra goes on the LTIR at the opening of the season that means he will not be eligible to return until Sunday October 25, 2009 when the Canucks play the Oilers at GM Place at the earliest.

And just to be clear Demitra on LTIR DOES NOT SAVE MONEY ON THE CAP.

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie (Post 21025652)
Then what's the standard to allow them to go on LTIR? Seems to be a bit of a loophole for a team that's having salary trouble.

The Club doctor must be of the opinion that the injury is sufficiently serious that the player will miss a minimum of 10 games AND 24 days.

The earliest possible return from the start of the season if on LTIR would be the game against the Oilers on 25 October 2009 at GM place.

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazycanuck (Post 21024860)
If Demitra is out for 10 games the cap savings once he is put on the LTIR is, about 0.488M. You add that to about 1.567-1.6M in cap room the Canucks should have after they lose one of Lukowich/O'brien. Total cap room from these two moves, 2.05-2.09M. With Hodgson, and Schneider (no cuts to the defense made) making the team, the Canucks would be currently about 1.415-1.448M over the cap. If Raycroft is the backup, they would be about 0.931-0.964M over the cap. Either way the Canucks get under the cap assuming Demitra misses 10 games.

There is no cap savings for injured players.

Injured players continue to count against the salary cap until such time as team bumps up against the Upper Limit and then a team is entitled to temporarily exceed the Upper Limit by the amount that the LTIR player's salary exceeds the cap. Once the player is to return to the active roster from LTIR the team must come into compliance and the exception disappears.

Here is it is from the CBA FAQ at NHL.com:
Quote:

A Club's payroll will include all salaries, signing bonuses and performance bonuses paid to players. Except in the case of bona fide long-term injury (injuries that sideline a player for a minimum of 24 days and 10 games) to one or more of a club's players, Club payrolls will never be permitted to be below the minimum or in excess of the maximum. Clubs at or near the upper limit that have players who incur a bona fide long-term injury will be entitled to replace up to the full value of the injured player's NHL salary (even if such salary would result in the club's team salary exceeding the upper limit). The "replacement salary" will not count against the club's upper limit but will count against the League-wide players' share. Upon return of the injured player, the team must come into immediate compliance with the requirements of the payroll range.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26366

StrictlyCommercial 09-09-2009 12:43 PM

There may be no cost savings, but it does allow us to keep an extra $4 M in players on our roster during that time, which will allow the coaching staff to get a better assessment of who makes the team as well as to buy time for Gillis to make a move/ wait for someone else to get injured.

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrictlyCommercial (Post 21026902)
There may be no cost savings, but it does allow us to keep an extra $4 M in players on our roster during that time, which will allow the coaching staff to get a better assessment of who makes the team as well as to buy time for Gillis to make a move/ wait for someone else to get injured.

That is not correct. There is an exception but that only comes into effect once the team is up against the Upper Limit.

Quote:

LONG-TERM INJURIES

A player is considered to have a bona-fide long-term injury if, in the opinion of the team, the player has an injury which will cause him to miss at least 10 games and 24 days. Even in such cases, the player's salary will continue to count against the team's Upper Limit. This is mentioned at least three times in the CBA, and is repeated in Article 50.10(a):
All Player Salary and Bonuses paid to Players on an NHL Active Roster, Injured Reserve or Non Roster that are Unfit to Play being either injured or suffering from an illness shall be counted against a Club's Upper Limit, Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, as well as against the Players' Share.
For players that the team has filed an LTI exception, the team is allowed to exceed the cap by up to the amount of the injured player's salary with as many replacement players as needed, provided that when the injured player is activated the team comes into compliance with the cap immediately. The team does not get to automatically tack on the amount of the injured player's salary to the Upper Limit - an example as illustrated in Article 50.10(d) of the CBA illustrates this point:
(a) Illustration: A Player with a Player Salary of $1.5 million becomes unfit to play for more than 24 days and 10 games. At the time the Player becomes unfit to play, the Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $39.5 million, and the Upper Limit is $40 million. The Club may replace the unfit-to-play Player with another Player of Players with an aggregate Player Salary and Bonuses of up to $1.5 million. The first $500,000 of such replacement salary and bonuses shall count toward the Club's Average Club Salary, bringing the Averaged Club Salary to the Upper Limit. The Club may then exceed the Upper Limit by up to another $1 million as a result of the replacement salary and bonuses. However, if the unfit-to-play Player once again becomes fit to play, and the Club has not otherwise created any Payroll Room during the interim period, then the Player shall not be permitted to rejoin the Club until such time as the Club reduces its Averaged Club Salary to below the Upper Limit.
So - just because a player has a long-term injury does not automatically grant the team extra cap space. A team with a payroll of $44 million that has a player making $4 million get injured doesn't gain any extra cap space as a result; a team at $54 million and a player at $4 million only gains $1,300,000 (all pro-rated, of course). Relief toward the salary cap only comes if replacing an injured player's salary would push the team over the cap, and the amount of relief is limited to the amount the team would go over the cap - not the entire amount of the injured player's salary.
http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm#article_50.10

Wellwood You 09-09-2009 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wetcoaster (Post 21027100)
That is not correct. There is an exception but that only comes into effect once the team is up against the Upper Limit.


http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm#article_50.10

And given the current roster, and given the current circumstances regarding Demitra's injury, and given the current cap situation, barring any further major moves, is it a good possibility that the Canucks' Average Club Salary will be at the Upper Limit by the first day of the regular season?

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by incognism (Post 21027254)
And given the current roster, and given the current circumstances regarding Demitra's injury, and given the current cap situation, barring any further major moves, is it a good possibility that the Canucks' Average Club Salary will be at the Upper Limit by the first day of the regular season?

Who knows?

That will be up to Gillis and Gilman.

Wellwood You 09-09-2009 01:36 PM

Well, since you won't acknowledge the point, I will:

1) Assuming that the Canucks begin the season near or at the Average Club Salary of $56.7M (otherwise in layman's terms as "cap hit")
2) Provided that the Upper Limit (otherwise in layman's terms as "salary cap") for the 2009-2010 NHL season is $56.7M
3) Assuming that Demitra is deemed by the Club Doctor to be ineligible to play due to medical injury for a period of longer than 10 games AND 24 calendar days and is placed on LTIR on the day prior to the start of the Regular Season.
4) Provided that Demitra's average salary is $4M for the 2009-2010 NHL season.

For the duration of time that Demitra is on LTIR, the Canucks will be allowed to exceed the "salary cap" by the amount of Demitra's salary. Once Demitra is deemed to be medically cleared to rejoin the active roster, the Canucks will need to shed any necessary salaries in order to be compliant with the $56.7M Average Club Salary.

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by incognism (Post 21027497)
Well, since you won't acknowledge the point, I will:

1) Assuming that the Canucks begin the season near or at the Average Club Salary of $56.7M (otherwise in layman's terms as "cap hit")
2) Provided that the Upper Limit (otherwise in layman's terms as "salary cap") for the 2009-2010 NHL season is $56.7M
3) Assuming that Demitra is deemed by the Club Doctor to be ineligible to play due to medical injury for a period of longer than 10 games AND 24 calendar days and is placed on LTIR on the day prior to the start of the Regular Season.
4) Provided that Demitra's average salary is $4M for the 2009-2010 NHL season.

For the duration of time that Demitra is on LTIR, the Canucks will be allowed to exceed the "salary cap" by the amount of Demitra's salary. Once Demitra is deemed to be medically cleared to rejoin the active roster, the Canucks will need to shed any necessary salaries in order to be compliant with the $56.7M Average Club Salary.

Repeating what I have said certainly emphasizes my point that there is no cap savings. Thank you. I am glad that you concur.

Wellwood You 09-09-2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrictlyCommercial (Post 21026902)
There may be no cost savings, but it does allow us to keep an extra $4 M in players on our roster during that time, which will allow the coaching staff to get a better assessment of who makes the team as well as to buy time for Gillis to make a move/ wait for someone else to get injured.

So to filter out the legalese, you are correct as long as the Canucks start the season near or at the $56.7M mark.

Wetcoaster 09-09-2009 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by incognism (Post 21027632)
So to filter out the legalese, you are correct as long as the Canucks start the season near or at the $56.7M mark.

You seem to have applied the incorrect filter.

Wellwood You 09-09-2009 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wetcoaster (Post 21027530)
Repeating what I have said certainly emphasizes my point that there is no cap savings. Thank you. I am glad that you concur.

Except I was never in disagreement with you. Not sure why you have the need to feel redemption.

Tripwyre 09-09-2009 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wetcoaster (Post 21027530)
Repeating what I have said certainly emphasizes my point that there is no cap savings. Thank you. I am glad that you concur.

Why do you have to be so smug about everything? It might not be "cap savings" but seeing as we're over the cap, it will get us under. That's what matters. Stop arguing semantics.

orcatown 09-09-2009 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripwyre (Post 21030513)
Why do you have to be so smug about everything? It might not be "cap savings" but seeing as we're over the cap, it will get us under. That's what matters. Stop arguing semantics.

Calm down. Why can't you just talk to the point without getting so personal.


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