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-   -   AAA11 Playoff Challenge: Regina Pat Canadians vs. Michigan Wolverines (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=679193)

VanIslander 09-09-2009 06:52 PM

AAA11 Playoff Challenge: Regina Pat Canadians vs. Michigan Wolverines
 
Regina Pat Canadians

coach: Brian Kilrea

Jack McDonald - Herb Jordan - Jack Marks (A)
Nick Mickoski - Don Smith - Art Gagne
Pete Horeck - Viktor Shuvalov - Don Saleski
Dan Maloney - Jimmy Herberts - Dallas Drake (C)
Mac Colville, Stanislav Petukhov

Lou Fontinato - Adrian Aucoin
Bruce Driver (A) - Bill Juzda
Bill Brydge - Jocelyn Guevremont
John Mayasich

Richard Brodeur
Frank McCool


vs.


Michigan Wolverines

coach: Ron Wilson

Martin Straka - Cliff Ronning - Glen Murray
Andre Boudrias (C) - Mike Bullard - Russ Courtnall
Randy Burridge - Dave Creighton - Scott Young
Donald Brashear - Todd Marchant (A) - Charlie Sands
Miroslav Satan, Ivan Boldirev

Marty Burke (A) - Alexei Zhitnik
Mike McEwen - Keith Brown
Patrice Brisebois - Steven Finn
Garth Butcher

Gilles Meloche
Don Beaupre

VanIslander 09-09-2009 06:56 PM

Interesting goaltending duel.

Two 1970s goalies in lesser play (WHA for Brodeur; expansion NHL team for Meloche) each of whom had NHL playoff success in the 1980s (Stanley Cup runs, the former had one great postseason by himself in net, the latter had several very good postseasons as part of a tandem).

seventieslord 09-09-2009 07:32 PM

Jimmy Herberts FTW!!!


Seriously though, he's a great player. I think it's an embarrassment of riches having him on the 4th line.

I see some talent in Michigan's lineup, but for the most part I see this as "Team MPWRWTS". Really like the Sands and Burridge picks, but after that, I see a lot of guys who are out of place.

seventieslord 09-09-2009 11:18 PM

Michigan is going to get pushed around. Possibly the toughest player in the series is on their 4th line and can't play at this level. The next-toughest players (Fontinato, Juzda, Drake, maloney, Horeck, Saleski) are all on regina and ready to cause a ruckus. Fighting, intimidating, agitating, bodychecking, sticking up for eachother - each one of them does it in their own way.

Of course, Regina's scorers were much more significant offensively within their eras, but I will save that for later.

VanIslander 09-10-2009 11:54 AM

So I should just concede the series? Or trash talk back?

This is not how I thought the discussions would go. I actually liked the "assassination" threads.

seventieslord 09-10-2009 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania (Post 21038002)
So I should just concede the series? Or trash talk back?

This is not how I thought the discussions would go. I actually liked the "assassination" threads.

I wouldn't mind if you did concede! :naughty:

But you should trash talk back! You want to convince the voters that you should win.

seventieslord 09-13-2009 04:13 PM

Simply put, Regina's scoring depth will see them through this series quite easily.

Herb Jordan, the team's offensive star, was a scoring runner-up four times - twice to the great Russell Bowie. He had a real life teammate in his later years named Jack McDonald - the man currently on his LW. McDonald also played with Jack Marks, the line's RW. The two combined for two Stanley Cups. McDonald is a very good playmaker, Jordan a goalscorer with little known about his playmaking (but what we do know looks promising) and Marks a big body with defensive presence and physicality to glue it all together. This line will be impossible to contain. Ronning and Murray will make an OK scorer/playmaker combo but they weren't even close to as significant in modern times as Jordan and McDonald were in theirs.

Similarly, on line 2, the big and tough to contain Nick Mickoski will help Don Smith and Art Gagne work their offensive Magic. Gagne is an outstanding playmaker at the AAA level, and Smith an outstanding goalscorer. Boudrias is a pretty good AAA playmaker, and Bullard similarly can score; they're just not quite up to Smith and Gagne's level.

Laval's checking line has two great checkers in Burridge and Sands, but the skilled and responsible Shuvalov and the shutdown winger Saleski are at least their equals, if not better. Not sure what Dave Creighton brings to a 3rd line besides skill (he's a great AAA scorer) but Regina's LW, Pete Horeck, was a mean, fearless, little kamikaze ball of hate. he's going to be absolutely nasty to play against.

Donald Brashear on one 4th line, vs. Dan Maloney on the other, just emphasizes the gap between these two teams. Maloney was not only an excellent fighter (twice voted the game's best by the NHL's coaches) he was also voted the league's 2nd best bodychecker. He was a pretty good scorer, too, and outperformed his teammates in GF/GA ratio. Brashear is better than your average goon as far as hockey skills go, but by no means is he a AAA player. Marchant is a nice little player with some speed, but he certainly wasn't the (briefly) dominant force that Jimmy Herberts was. Herberts absolutely carried Boston for two full seasons, placing 7th in Hart voting both times. He was gritty too; an excellent 4th-liner. Sands is a better player than Drake considering he was a good checker and also placed on the leaderboards a couple of times. But Drake, along with Maloney, is exactly the type of guy a team needs to win. Someone who will go through a brick wall to get the puck.

On D, Marty Burke can handle top pairing minutes and I can give Zhitnik the benefit of the doubt for being the #1 on a weak (aside from Hasek) Buffalo team for so long. The others aren't exactly very significant players that will be remembered years down the road. Aucoin is definitely his superior, though, especially thanks to a higher peak that saw him place very high in ice time and Norris Voting. Fontinato, who received some Norris consideration too, has to be considered better than Burke.

Driver and Brisebois are on separate pairings but they make an interesting comparison. Very similar career totals once all is said and done. Brisebois is almost Driver's equal offensively, but Driver played a simple, mistake-free game while Brisebois has been an absolute mess sometimes. The same could be said for McEwen, who actually is more comparable to Guevremont. Both McEwen and Guevremont had the potential to be defensive time bombs, but Guevremont has the better offensive peak, finishing 4th, 8th, 8th, 9th among defensemen in his best years, compared to just 7th and 8th for McEwen.

Juzda and Brown are both in "steady 2nd pairing guy" roles. Juzda is better. His offensive achievements were nothing special, but were slightly better than Brown's. Both played a good, tough game. But Brown was a run of the mill stay at home guy. Juzda was THE pre-eminent open ice hitter of his time. His hits were feared.

That leaves Finn and Brydge, both set up as the "steady 3rd pairing guy". Finn was a solid, dependable nordique for years, a lot like Keith Brown, but he never did anything really special other than be a run of the mill stay at home guy. Brydge also played on some terrible teams and was one of its lone bright lights. He was decent offensively and the newspaper accounts frequently mentioned him being an important part of the game. He was also quite physical.

Michigan's first AAA offering is decent in some areas, but ultimately would benefit from further research of pre-expansion players. Limiting yourself to (mostly) post-1980 players puts you at an instant disadvantage. Regina's roster features some of the best players from all over history.

VanIslander 09-13-2009 06:49 PM

You like to post top-10 stats. Where are they on your team?

From my team:

Straka
2000-01 NHL 68 Assists (3)
2000-01 NHL 95 Points (4)

Murray
2001-02 NHL 41 Goals (2)
2002-03 NHL 44 Goals (5)
2002-03 NHL 92 Points (7)

Boudrais
1973-74 NHL 59 Assists (5)
1974-75 NHL 62 Assists (8)

Bullard
1983-84 NHL 51 Goals (7)
1987-88 NHL 48 Goals (9)

Creighton
1957-58 NHL 35 Assists (9)
1955-56 NHL 51 Points (9)

Young
2000-01 NHL 40 Goals (10)

Sands
1936-37 NHL 18 Goals (8)
1937-38 NHL 17 Goals (10)
1939-40 NHL 20 Assists (8)

Satan
1998-99 NHL 40 (7)
2001-02 NHL 37 (9)

And among defensemen I know McEwen was five times top-10 in defenseman scoring but I don't have the statistics for top-10 defenseman scoring to show in detail.

And this is just the regular season statistics.

Michigan has had better peak seasons than Regina. But you talk a good talk.

And if you want to get into playoff scoring top-10 stats, we can go there. Michigan has much better playoff scoring stars than Regina. There really is no argument here, even looking at differences in era.

VanIslander 09-13-2009 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord
On D, Marty Burke can handle top pairing minutes and I can give Zhitnik the benefit of the doubt for being the #1 on a weak (aside from Hasek) Buffalo team for so long. The others aren't exactly very significant players that will be remembered years down the road.

McEwen has three Stanley Cups and was 2nd in defenseman scoring in two of the championship playoffs, scoring 14 points in 17 games and 10 points in 15 games in 1981 and 1982 Isles wins.

That was after he was in one of the best trades in NYI franchise history: March 10, 1981: Jari Kaarela and Mike McEwen traded from Colorado to NY Islanders for Glenn Resch and Steve Tambellini.

That trade came about because Don Cherry blew his cool and got physical with McEwen on the bench, which surely contributed to Cherry getting fired that season.

from hockeydraftcentral.com
Quote:

McEwen and Cherry: McEwen had a major fallout with then Colorado coach Don Cherry in March 1980, which led to his walking out on the team after Cherry allegedly used physical force against him on the bench. He sat out two games before returning to the team on March 16, 1980. The dispute began after Colorado's March 7, 1980, game vs. Chicago, when Cherry blamed McEwen's play for the Rockies' loss. McEwen was so offended by the comments that he refused to continue playing for Cherry and demanded a trade before the trading deadline. Colorado did not trade McEwen, so he returned home to Toronto. Colorado management questioned Cherry about the incident and then suspended McEwen without pay. The situation was later resolved during a meeting with McEwen in Hartford. It later turned out that McEwen had been asking for a trade since March 4, when he decided his playing style was incompatible with Cherry's coaching system. On March 7, Cherry, already aware of McEwen's demands, grabbed and shook McEwen after he was on the ice for a Chicago goal. He berated McEwen for staying out on the ice too long instead of coming to the bench for a change. Cherry had already expressed anger at McEwen for a practice collision with Rene Robert that ended Robert's season. McEwen felt Cherry was playing mind games with him by limiting his ice time and trying to break his confidence in the weeks after he had returned from the NHL All-Star Game. McEwen ended up being the survivor as Cherry was fired at season's end.

seventieslord 09-13-2009 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania (Post 21082385)
You like to post top-10 stats. Where are they on your team?

From my team:

Straka
2000-01 NHL 68 Assists (3)
2000-01 NHL 95 Points (4)

Murray
2001-02 NHL 41 Goals (2)
2002-03 NHL 44 Goals (5)
2002-03 NHL 92 Points (7)

Boudrais
1973-74 NHL 59 Assists (5)
1974-75 NHL 62 Assists (8)

Bullard
1983-84 NHL 51 Goals (7)
1987-88 NHL 48 Goals (9)

Creighton
1957-58 NHL 35 Assists (9)
1955-56 NHL 51 Points (9)

Young
2000-01 NHL 40 Goals (10)

Sands
1936-37 NHL 18 Goals (8)
1937-38 NHL 17 Goals (10)
1939-40 NHL 20 Assists (8)

Satan
1998-99 NHL 40 (7)
2001-02 NHL 37 (9)

And among defensemen I know McEwen was five times top-10 in defenseman scoring but I don't have the statistics for top-10 defenseman scoring to show in detail.

And this is just the regular season statistics.

Michigan has had better peak seasons than Regina. But you talk a good talk.

And if you want to get into playoff scoring top-10 stats, we can go there. Michigan has much better playoff scoring stars than Regina. There really is no argument here, even looking at differences in era.

Surely you jest!

You're just posting your team's meagre top-10 finishes and assuming I don't have any myself. Hogwash. You didn't pay attention this entire draft, did you?

seventieslord 09-13-2009 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania (Post 21082618)
McEwen has three Stanley Cups and was 2nd in defenseman scoring in two of the championship playoffs, scoring 14 points in 17 games and 10 points in 15 games in 1981 and 1982 Isles wins.

That was after he was in one of the best trades in NYI franchise history: March 10, 1981: Jari Kaarela and Mike McEwen traded from Colorado to NY Islanders for Glenn Resch and Steve Tambellini.

That trade came about because Don Cherry blew his cool and got physical with McEwen on the bench, which surely contributed to Cherry getting fired that season.

from hockeydraftcentral.com

True, and I knew that. I had McEwen. He put up the points, but how relied upon was he? At his very best, he was their 4th-6th defenseman. Not that this is bad, after all, they were a great team. But he's an offensive specialist. And not even as good an offensive specialist as Jocelyn Guevremont, who is on Regina's 3rd pairing.

I'll address the top-10 scoring silliness shortly.

seventieslord 09-13-2009 09:01 PM

Posting my roster post in here, so that it's easier to refer to for comparisons, and because maybe you'll read some bios this time:

Regina Pat Canadians

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/client_as...EE2172F404.gif



1939 or earlier: McDonald, Jordan, Marks, Smith, Gagne, Herberts, Brydge
1940-1965: Mickoski, Juzda, Fontinato, Shuvalov, Mayasich, Horeck, McCool
1966-1979: Guevremont, Brodeur, Kilrea, Saleski, Maloney
1980-1989: Driver
1990-1999: Drake
in 2009: Aucoin

seventieslord 09-13-2009 11:05 PM

If I'm going to do this I may as well go all out.

Regina's forwards' high finishes in goals and assists:

Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20 Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
McDonald 1 3 4 5 8 0 0 0 1 1
Jordan 3 4 5 6 6 2 2 2 2 2
Ja.Marks 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1
Mickoski 0 0 0 4 4 0 0 1 1 1
D.Smith 0 1 2 4 5 0 0 2 2 2
A.Gagne 0 1 2 4 5 1 2 3 3 3
Horeck 0 0 1 1 2 0 0 1 1 1
Shuvalov N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/AN/A
Saleski 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Maloney 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Herberts 0 1 1 4 4 0 0 0 2 2
Drake 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0



Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20 Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
Straka 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 2 3
Ronning 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
G.Murray 1 2 2 3 4 0 0 0 0 1
Boudrias 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 2 3
Bullard 0 0 2 2 3 0 0 0 0 1
R.Courtnall 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Burridge 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
D.Creighton 0 0 0 2 4 0 0 1 2 2
S.Young 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
Brashear 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Marchant 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sands 0 0 2 2 3 0 0 1 1 1

seventieslord 09-13-2009 11:17 PM

Totals for Regina:

Goals: 4-10-15-29-35
Assists: 3-4-9-12-13

Totals for Michigan:

Goals: 1-3-7-11-16
Assists: 0-2-5-8-13

This is based on data from my research going back to the 1910 beginning of the NHL's predecessor, the NHA. Keep in mind that the goal was to deliberately NOT over-reward players from before 1927 when the NHL became the sole top league. My research can be found here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=614595
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=633070

Shuvalov, a 1950s Russian, is obviously not a part of this study. Herb Jordan also was past his prime when the scope of this study began, so I used his actual results from those leagues. For transparency purposes, here is what I did:

1903, 1904, 1905, he was the 2nd leading goal scorer. I credited two of these as Top-2s and one as merely a top-5. There is always the possibility of a better scorer being in the other leagues, but the two times he came 2nd to Bowie are huge.

1906, he was 6th. Since it was like a half-league, that equates to roughly 12th so I called it a top-15.

1908, he was 4th. Same primciple - this goes in the books as a top-10.

1909, he was 2nd to Marty Walsh. Walsh was the world's top scorer at this time. There was no comparable league out there. I called this a top-2.

seventieslord 09-13-2009 11:23 PM

Offense from the blueline:

Fontinato placed 10th, 13th in the NHL
Aucoin placed 10th
Driver placed 13th
Guevremont placed 4th, 8th, 8th, 9th
Brydge placed 4th, 6th, 10th
Juzda placed 12th, 13th

Burke placed 10th, 11th
McEwen 7th, 8th
Brisebois, Zhitnik, Finn, and Brown never had any significant placement.

...not that this part is hugely important. Every defenseman on Regina can move the puck, and Zhitnik and Brisebois, despite never placing top-15, are good puck movers. I'm more concerned with the defense's ability to defend, and ours will be able to defend much better than Michigan's. Brisebois and McEwen on the same defense? :eep:

VanIslander 09-26-2009 12:21 AM

Regina sweeps Michigan in 4 games

1. Herb Jordan
2. Jack Marks
3. Gilles Meloche


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