All-Time Draft #12 Line-up Assassination Thread
Now that teams are starting to complete their rosters, it's time to start with another ATD tradition: evaluations. Please post your completed rosters here.
Hamilton Bettmans (Johnny Engine and Dreakmur)
Coach - Don Cherry
Assistant Coach - Roger Neilson
Vladimir Krutov - Mario Lemieux [A] - Hooley Smith [C]
Tommy Smith - Darryl Sittler [A] - Billy Boucher
Tommpy Phillips - Art Chapman - Blair Russel
Percy Galbraith - Red Berenson - Mush March
Valery Vasiliev [A] - Moose Johnson
Jan Suchy - Bert Corbeau
Dunc Munro - Red Dutton
Spares: Corb Denneny and Jack Campbell
Minor League : Jim Riley - Clare McKerrow - Cully Wilson - Bobby Trapp - Jim McKenny - Nicklas Backstrom
Unit #1: Vladimir Krutov - Mario Lemieux - Hooley Smith - Jan Suchy - Bert Corbeau
Unit #2: Tommy Smith - Darryl Sittler - Tommy Phillips - Valery Vasiliev - Moose Johnson
Unit #1: Hooley Smith - Tommy Phillips - Valery Vasiliev - Moose Johnson
Unit #2: Art Chapman - Blair Russel - Dunc Munro - Red Dutton
Unit #3: Red Berenson - Percy Galbraith
Shut-down Unit: Tommy Phillips - Art Chapman - Blair Russel - Valery Vasiliev - Moose Johnson
Coach : Harry Sinden
Assistant : Bill Dineen
Keith Tkachuk - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Alexander Yakushev - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Helmut Balderis
Nick Metz - Doug Jarvis - Rusty Crawford
Johnny Peirson - Paul Ronty - Don Maloney
Rod Langway - Larry Murphy
Sergei Zubov - Leo Reise jr.
Glen Harmon - Dave Langevin
Rick Kehoe - Erich Kuehnhackl - Serge Bernier
Udo Kiessling - Hy Buller
Special teams :
Powerplay unit 1 : Tkachuk - Gretzky - Kurri - Murphy - Harmon
Powerplay unit 2 : Yakushev - Starshinov - Balderis - Zubov - Reise
Penalty kill unit 1 : Jarvis - Metz - Langway - Zubov
Penalty kill unit 2 : Gretzky - Kurri - Murphy - Langevin
I'll try to review some teams tomorrow.
Betelgeuse Hitchhikers review...
*The first thing I see is continuity. Gretzky and Kurri rates among the best duos in league history. I'm pretty sure Langway and Murphy would have played together at some point during their Washington years.
*Tkachuk's a guy who is best served on a second line, even though he has the ability to be a first line guy. He is a guy with some warts. He should be fine, though, playing the role of a space-opener with Gretz and Kurri - providing a strong forecheck, working hard along the boards and in the corners, and driving to the front of the net. He'll also provide protection.
*Metz and Jarvis are top-notch defensive forwards. They won't provide much offensively, but they can play a lot of minutes against the opposition's top line. Of course, if they're used too much, they'll take away from the ice time for the second line.
*One question I have is if there's enough toughness up front. How will they stand up to some of the tough, physical, mobile, smart defencemen out there. Will the forwards be able to survive in physical, grinding, best-of-seven series? Or will they be worn down?
*There doesn't appear to be an ace on the blue-line, but there is good depth. Langway and Murphy are solid No. 2s who, as I said before, probably saw some ice time together in Washington, and, at worst, have a strong knowledge of what to expect from each other thanks to their years together. They can also log minutes against the opposition's top pairing, although they might not be an ideal pairing against some of the fastest lines in the draft.
*When I see Harmon on the first PP unit (or any PP unit, for that matter), and Reise on a second PP unit, it makes me wonder about the ability of this defence to advance the puck or work the PP. The flip side is that this is a very reliable, sound and steady defence, and with the exception of Zubov, Jungo should feel comfortable employing any of his defencemen against the opposition's top line.
*Holocek's a solid No. 1. Not terrific. But solid. Won't hurt you. Crozier's one of the better back-ups in the draft.
*I think I like Sinden more than some posters, but he's still a cut below some of the other coaches out there. Probably belongs in the early to mid 20s for coaches.
GM : MXD
Coach : Cecil Hart
Asst : Jacques Laperriere
Capitain : Howie Morenz
Alternate : Earl Seibert
Alternate : Charlie Gardiner
Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Johnny Gagnon
Lynn Patrick - Phil Watson - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Murray Murdoch - Fleming Mackell - Cecil Dillon
Charley McVeigh - Andy Blair - Bill Ezinicki :
Bill Goldsworty & Bob Gracie
Earl Seibert - Hod Stuart
Lionel Hitchman - Flash Hollett
Ted Harris - Andrei Markov
PP1 : Aurčle Joliat - Howie Morenz - Cecil Dillon - Flash Hollett - Hod Stuart
PP2 : Lynn Patrick - Phil Watson - Bryan Hextall - Earl Seibert - Andrei Markov
PK1 : Charlei McVeigh - Fleming Mackell - Earl Seibert - Lionel Hitchman
PK 2 : Cecil Dillon - Murray Murdoch - Hod Stuart - Ted Harris
I am a big fan of Hod Stuart. He was so far ahead of every other defenseman during his day. I think that Seibert - Stuart pairing will be among the best in the draft.
Head Coach: Pete Green
Ast. Coach: John Muckler
Sid Smith-Joe Sakic (C)-Larry Aurie
Brian Bellows-Marcel Dionne-Reggie Leach
Thomas Steen-Kenta Nilsson-Hakan Loob
Johnny Gottselig-Dave Poulin-Mario Tremblay
Spares: Johnny Wilson, Duane Sutter
Ray Bourque (A)-Rob Blake
Kevin Lowe (A)-Adam Foote
George Owen-Bill Hajt
PP 1: Smith-Dionne-Leach-Bourque-Sakic
PP 2: Steen-Nilsson-Loob-Owen-Blake
PK 1: Poulin-Tremblay-Bourque-Foote
PK 2: Steen-Gottselig-Lowe-Hajt
Morris Lukowich-Jason Spezza-Russ Courtnall
Normand Rochefort-Mike Green
GMs: Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator
Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Sid Abel
Alternate Captains: Art Coulter & Bruce Stuart
#12 Sid Abel-#7 Phil Esposito-#21 Mickey MacKay
#6 Paul Thompson-#24 Bernie Federko-#17 Odie Cleghorn
#19 Bruce Stuart-#18 Bobby Smith-#8 Jim Pappin
#20 Camille Henry-#27 Red Sullivan-#4 Pud Glass
#3 J.C. Tremblay-#2 Art Coulter
#16 Leo Boivin-#15 Jim Neilson
#10 Carol Vadnais-#25 Yuri Liapkin
#29 Ken Dryden
#35 Nikolai Khabibulin
Spares: #9 Charlie Burns, #5 Phil Russell & #22 Dennis Hextall
PP 1: Abel-Esposito-Federko-Tremblay-MacKay
PP 2: Henry-Smith-Thompson-Vadnais-Liapkin
PK 1: Thompson-MacKay-Boivin-Coulter
PK 2: Abel-Pappin-Liapkin-Neilson
Esposito doesn't have a letter? That's very curious. His leadership qualities were outstanding in Boston and especially the Summit Series. He was fiercely loyal to his teammates and called out all of Canada on their booing in the Summit Series. It's just a little weird for Espo to not have at least an A.
Coach: Scotty Bowman
Captain: Gordie Howe
Sweeney Shriner - Frank Boucher - Gordie Howe
Steve Shutt - Frank Frederickson - Mike Gartner
George Hay - Tommy Dunderdale - Lorne Carr
Al Secord - Dale Hunter - Mike Keane
Zdeno Chara - "Ching" Johnson
Lloyd Cook - Kevin Hatcher
Dave Burrows - Mathieu Schneider
PP 1: Sweeney Shriner - Frank Boucher - Gordie Howe - Zdeno Chara - Lloyd Cook
PP 2: Steve Shutt - Frank Frederickson - Mike Gartner - Kevin Hatcher - Mathieu Schneider
PK 1: Dale Hunter - Mike Gartner - Zdeno Chara - Dave Burrows
PK 2: Gordie Howe - Mike Keane - Ching Johnson - Dave Burrows
Spares on roster:
Jim Roberts, Andre Lacroix, Larry Hillman
Spares for recall:
Don Edwards, Al Arbour, Kent Douglas, Claude Larose, Danny Grant, Lowell MacDonald
I'm all done:
Coach: Art Ross
Captain: Ted Kennedy
Alternate Captains: Michael Peca, Harry Howell
Bobby Hull - Ted Kennedy - Gordie Drillon
Baldy Northcott - Milan Novy - Charlie Conacher
Joe Klukay - Michael Peca - Ed Westfall
Jack Adams - Doug Weight - Jean Pronovost
Harry Howell - Buck Boucher
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Barry Ashbee - Steve Duchesne
Nikolai Drozdetsky - Josef Malecek - Vincent Lukac
John Van Boxmeer - Bryan McCabe
PP1: Bobby Hull - Ted Kennedy - Gordie Drillon - Buck Boucher - Steve Duchense
PP2: Baldy Northcott - Milan Novy - Charlie Conacher - Pat Stapleton - Doug Weight
PK1: Ted Kennedy - Ed Westfall - Harry Howell - Buck Boucher
PK2: Michael Peca - Joe Klukay - Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Hamilton Bettmans review...
*The first line will be one of the toughest to play against in the draft. Lemieux wasn't overly physical, but he used his massive frame and strength to make life miserable for opponents. Smith and Krutov bring skill and toughness on the wings. I think Krutov might be better-suited to second line duty, but it's hard to mess up a line with Mario and the Hooley. Teams that have a defensive pairing lacking in grit, toughness and/or size might be wise to keep them away from this bull of a line.
*Not sold on the wingers for the second line. I'm sold on Sittler - I think he's good enough for a first line role. But Smith and Boucher don't do it for me. Competition is a big issue for Smith. He put up numbers, but against who? Boucher had two second place finishes in goals, and a couple third place finishes in points, but it didn't last long. The year before consolidation, his numbers plummeted. He played a little more than a year after consolidation, and it's not like he was a 30-something veteran at the time, either. What Boucher does bring is the gritty presence to that second line.
*The third line is a very, very smart line. In terms of hockey IQ, they're going to among the best in the draft. As stated when you guys picked him, Chapman was the guy I'd targeted for our third line from the outset. The question is how they will do against lines that bring skill and toughness to the table, because I'm not certain there's the big-time physical player on this line.
*Much like Jungo's team, there isn't a legit No. 1 defenceman. Vasiliev is the best of this bunch, but he's a bottom-end No. 1. He's a rock-solid blue-liner, but I wonder if he's better suited to being a No. 2. It means this team doesn't have the minute-muncher who can play 25-30 minutes per game.
*From 1-6, the defence is as tough as any in the draft. Vasiliev's tough. Johnson is tough. Corbeau is tough. Munro is tough. Suchy isn't all that physical, but you need someone to quarterback the power play.
*When I look at this team, I see a lot of guys who never played against the best in the world on a nightly basis. And it's a big concern. They played in fractured leagues, or European leagues. pappy's right when he questions the double-standard in this draft, and why we treat the WCHL and the PCHA and the European leagues different from the WHA. How are they going to adjust to playing against the best ever on a nightly basis, when they never played against the best in the world on a nightly basis? Some players are going to be in for a real learning curve.
We saw the best team from the western leagues play the best team from the NHL/NHA. To my knowledge, there wasn't an all-star game between the two leagues, or a series between the best players from the PCHA/WCHL vs. the best from the NHA/NHL. At least we had that with Summit in 72. We saw the best in the USSR vs. the best in the NHL. And it changed everyone's perceptions.
For the record, if the WHA ever played the NHL in an all-star game, or a Summit-esque series, I think the WHA would have beat the NHL. Not because the WHA was better. But for the guys in the WHA, it would have meant the world to them. To the NHL guys, it would have been an exhibition.
The Inglewood Jacks
Coach: Jacques Demers
Assistant: Rudy Pilous
Frank Mahovlich - Frank Nighbor (C) - Danny Gare
Doug Bentley - Vladimir Petrov - Babe Dye
Alf Smith (A) - Bobby Holik - Floyd Curry
Eddie Shack - Ken Linseman - Wilf Paiement
Extra: Brian Rolston - Pierre Turgeon - Tony Granato
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin
Doug Harvey (A) - Jimmy Watson
Babe Siebert (A) - Jim Schoenfeld
Jack Laviolette - Goldie Prodger
Extra: Yuri Fedorov - Jay Bouwmeester
Extra: Olaf Kolzig
Relating the few number of teams, when they met for the cup, the teams facing off were likely loaded with talent, and would likely compete with, or beat, a team made up of the stars of the rest of their league. And in those matches, we know each team would give 100%- it was the cup on the line.
It didn't mean that much to the NHLers by the looks of things at first, but that soon changed. I think they could dig deep for motivation and win, with the big talent difference.
Kimberley Dynamiters review...
*First team that I reviewed that has one of the big advantages in the draft: a front line that can play against an opposition's top line. When Joe Sakic is your centre, you can play that line against anybody. It's a big asset because it takes line-matching out of the equation, and it forces the opposition's top line to concentrate on defence.
*And that's good news, too, because lines centred by Marcel Dionne and Kent Nilsson are not going to be depended on to play against the opposition's best players. Tremendous skill there. But little commitment to their own zone.
*This team has tremendous team offence. Three lines that can score. Guys like Bourque, Blake and Owen who know their way around the offensive zone. Okay, you'll be able to hear a lot of breakout passes from the second pairing hitting the boards, but Bourque, Blake and Owen are great for a transition game.
*It will be interesting to see whether this team employs a five-man shutdown unit against the opposition's best. There are pros and cons. The pros are that such a unit will develop strong cohesion. The con is that it means a lot of ice time for the fourth line and the second pairing.
*I don't know if there's a really punishing forward, an effective space-opener on the first two lines - Aurie's likely the best at that role.
*We looked long and hard at Bellows. Just couldn't justify him for a two-way line or a momentum line. He was probably the best available scoring LW for a while when you snapped him up.
*Team defence could have some problems. Not a qualm with the blue-line. The blue-line has a nice blend of skill and defensive responsibility. But the Dionne and Nilsson lines will be out for a lot of goals against.
*Grant Fuhr gets it. He understands it's not just how many pucks you stop, but when you stop them, and if you win the game. Whether it's 2-1 or 6-5, Fuhr comes up with the big saves when they're needed most.
*I think the trade you made with VCL was a very good one. You dealt Andrechuk and Murray, and it freed you up to take Bellows. Bellows obviously isn't a PP force like Andreychuk, doesn't have Andreychuk's hands in tight, but I think he's a better fit for an ATD at five-on-five than Andreychuk. Big Dave you take for leadership, the power play and his hands. But as far as the better offensive player at even strength in a format like this, give me Bellows.
*Green's a solid coach, in that second tier for coaches.
Just one question here: I'm also concerned about the defensive liabilities among the forwards, and I'm tempted to drop Bellows out of the lineup in favor of Wilson.
Lines would look like this:
Gottselig's not a physical guy either, but at least he'd provide a bit of defensive conscious to the second unit.
My only major regret is taking Dionne over Kennedy. With the way the bottom six shaped out, Sakic/Kennedy would be the best two-way combo.
The thing is, your second line is built to be a scoring line. With Dionne there, it's not going to be a good defensive line. So you substitute Bellows for Gottselig on the second line, and put Wilson in the line-up, you've improved the defensive ability of the second line, but you've weakened its offensive ability. If you're looking for a two-way line, then yeah, go with Gottselig on the second line. We wanted a two-way second line, and that's why we went with Lach and Sutter when we did. You want an offensive second line. You want Bellows there.
I view consolidation as one of the most significant events in hockey history. Right up there with the NHL/WHA merger, and behind the expansion in 67. Once consolidation happened, for the first time, you could look at a hockey league and say "the best players in the world are in one league." Before there were options. After consolidation, there wasn't.
I don't see how Bellows can get into this lineup ahead of Gottselig and Wilson. Both are excellent two-way players, and frankly, they were among the NHL's top offensive players more often than Bellows actually was. Yeah, 1000+ points looks great and all, but that is also symptomatic of playing through the 1980s.
Syracuse Bulldogs review...
*The first line is tremendous. Obviously you can go any direction with Gordie, because he's a total offensive weapon and a physical force. (I'd try to surround him with skilled, physical linemates for the ultimate power/skill line, but that's just me). You went with the superb two-way playmaker in Boucher and another offensive machine in Sweeney Schriner - a guy who gets picked way too late in this thing.
*Kudos to give Mike Gartner talent to work with. Frederickson's a solid, skilled, gritty player. I don't know if Shutt's the right player for that line - he's an excellent garbage man, but is he what they need on that line? You have a tremendous trigger man in Gartner. I don't know how many opportunities Shutt will have to "pick up the garbage." But hey, at least Gartner has excellent talent at centre this time.
*Is your third line a scoring line or a two-way line? I'm a Carr fan - he was born about 30 minutes from where I live. But if this is a two-way line, is he good enough defensively to fill that role? Or is he out of place? Because you have Boucher, you don't need a great two-way line as much as a team with a lesser defensive centre on the front line. But if you want a two-way third line, you might want a different winger.
*I got a headache the moment I saw your fourth line. Call it the Headache Line. Skating might be an issue - Middleton and St. Louis are looking forward to blowing by Secord several nights a year. But it's going to be a combative, abrasive, annoying line that will score some goals, and generate a lot of power plays for your team with their agitation.
*Biggest concern is the lack of a No. 1 defenceman. Your top pairing is, well, slow. Yeah, they're big and tough and physical, but a line like LF's Blake-Taylor-Selanne line could be a source of problems. (That would be an interesting match-up). Regardless, that first pairing will administer a lot of hits, and they're tough, but are they mobile enough to keep up with the opposition in a best-of-seven?
*Your defence as a whole is tough. The only guy who isn't imposing is Schneider. Chara's a bad ass. Johnson's a rock. Burrows is the Steady Eddie type. There isn't a ton of skill on this defence, but they'll be tough to play against.
*A guy like Kevin Hatcher could be the key. Nobody ever doubted his ability. It's just that he didn't bring it on a nightly basis. He had nights when he looked like a sure-fire HHOF all-round defenceman. He had other nights - a lot of nights - when he was a non-factor. If his head's on straight, and Bowman gets the most out of him, he'll be your No. 3 defenceman and a force on a nightly basis. But there will also be nights when he's a liability, and he needs to be stapled to the bench.
*Tretiak might be the most polarizing player in the draft. Some love him. They think he's one of the top five goalies ever. They point to his performance in Summit, or the NYE Classic against Montreal. Others think he's a lower-end No. 1. I'm in the middle. I think he's good enough to be a No. 1, without question. But I think he's a mid-tier No. 1. That's why I would have gone for a back-up sooner than you did, although you certainly got a good one in Vernon.
- I really wanted Boucher for obvious reasons (4th line, and spot duty with Joliat and Morenz against bigger teams). But you picked him. Anyways.... The Sittler line is well-built, and Sittler is an upper-tier 2nd C in this draft. But that line is really C-driven, a bit like your first.
- Philipps-Chapman-Russell is simply awesome. Not a problem with that line. Those guys could play A LOT. It's might be your 2nd line, as far as IT is concerned.
- Considering that, the 4th is... puzzling. They're not a good offensively as your 3rd, they're not as good defensively as your 3rd, but they're also LESS physical as well, unless there's something I don't know about Galbraith.
- Vasiliev-Johnson-Suchy is a very good Top-3. I don't buy Corbeau as a Top-4 guy in this draft, but he indeed brings something that will make him useful, along Suchy. Your 4th is probably Dutton. I do know a bit about Dunc Munro, and at this point, I don't see what makes him an ATD'er. I'll look into things, though.
- Benedict? Solid. Top-tier goalie. Paton? There might be a wide range of opinions about him. A bottom-tier backup here IMO, but you have an upper-tier starter, so it kindof make sense.
- I already covered the head coach point. Great much by picking Neilson.
So with the relative equality between east and west well-established, why penalize a player for playing in a system like this? Was it his fault the leagues were split up? Was he playing inferior competition as a result? The answer is no. Simply, he was only playing against half of the best players. If the leagues combined and the number of teams remained the same, any player would still be playing the same percentage of "top" players. Once you start considering the west to be a "conference" and the east the other conference, and considering that the east and west teams met in the finals (like the world series, for example), then you can get over your irrational fear of pre-1926 players. Seriously, try it!
Two other corrections to your posts so far:
1. The end of the top-level amateurs happened well before the 1910 inagural NHA season so I have no idea why mentioning that was relevant.
2. Who did Tommy Smith score against? He played in this league called the NHA, it was the same league as the NHL but under a different name. His opponents were players like Frank Nighbor and Newsy Lalonde. In other words, the same place those players built the majority of their legacies. Did you think Smith was a turn-of-the-century player?
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