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-   -   News Article: Flyers Fifth Most Valuable NHL Franchise (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=702646)

DrinkFightFlyers 11-11-2009 09:41 PM

Flyers Fifth Most Valuable NHL Franchise
 
Flyers are the only non Original Six franchise in the top five. They are the only non Original Six team in the top six. That's very telling of the fans that back the team. Gotta love that.

Quote:

NEW YORK -- For the fourth straight year, the Toronto Maple Leafs are the NHL's most valuable team, according to Forbes magazine's annual survey.

The Leafs are worth $470 million, an increase of 5 percent over last year. They easily are worth more than the next franchise, the New York Rangers at $416 million, up just 1 percent.

The original six franchises are in the top seven, with only Philadelphia at No. 5 breaking that monopoly. Montreal is third ($339 million), followed by Detroit ($337 million), Philadelphia ($273 million), Boston ($271 million) and Chicago ($258 million).

Not surprisingly, the Phoenix Coyotes, with all their ownership issues, have the lowest worth, $138 million. And 14 teams -- nearly half the league -- went down in value, ranging from Colorado decreasing by 11 percent to Philadelphia falling 1 percent.

Toronto has, by far, the most operating income, $78.9 million, Forbes reported. Second in operating income is Montreal at $31.3 million.

The Leafs are tops in revenues, too, at $168 million, followed by the Rangers at $139 million.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4645876

sa cyred 11-11-2009 09:44 PM

According to the article, we actually went down 1% in value also

Centauris* 11-11-2009 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa cyred (Post 22078110)
According to the article, we actually went down 1% in value also


economy.

TheLegendkiller 11-12-2009 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centauris (Post 22078712)
economy + world series.


Fixed

DeadPhish5858 11-12-2009 02:15 AM

Yea the World Series was brutal. Count me as part of that. Im sorry.

Jester 11-12-2009 08:16 AM

If almost half the league is dropping in value...I would love to see Bettman's discussion of this article.

IrishSniper87 11-12-2009 08:27 AM

World Series + Economy

but come on guys, I want 4th most valuable franchise, we gotta step it up.

$270 mill doesnt seem like a lot for the Flyers organization, but whatever.

Jester 11-12-2009 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 (Post 22081439)
World Series + Economy

but come on guys, I want 4th most valuable franchise, we gotta step it up.

$270 mill doesnt seem like a lot for the Flyers organization, but whatever.

Well, what's interesting is that the Flyers are almost certainly more valuable than that to Comcast, since Comcast broadcasts their games and generates so much attention for CSN through the Flyers. I would assume that is not included in that tally, because it isn't like if you bought the Flyers they are going to sell you CSN.

CS 11-12-2009 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 (Post 22081439)
World Series + Economy

but come on guys, I want 4th most valuable franchise, we gotta step it up.

$270 mill doesnt seem like a lot for the Flyers organization, but whatever.

New York is hard to beat, and even with struggling on-ice teams the Canadiens and Maple Leafs are going to be ahead of us. That's something that you have to just accept.

If Detroit's on-ice product begins to falter because of poor drafting (haha) and their own players going over the hill, it is possible to pass them with the economy the way it is now. Even so, it's going to take a perfect storm in Detroit.

Jester 11-12-2009 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081475)
New York is hard to beat, and even with struggling on-ice teams the Canadiens and Maple Leafs are going to be ahead of us. That's something that you have to just accept.

If Detroit's on-ice product begins to falter because of poor drafting (haha) and their own players going over the hill, it is possible to pass them with the economy the way it is now. Even so, it's going to take a perfect storm in Detroit.

It would take a complete collapse of the auto industry, and given that the gov't has decided they are "too big to fail" I wouldn't count on it happening. But...Detroit itself is already dead economically.

Worth the read on the state of Detroit: http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2...y-and-new.html

CS 11-12-2009 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081472)
Well, what's interesting is that the Flyers are almost certainly more valuable than that to Comcast, since Comcast broadcasts their games and generates so much attention for CSN through the Flyers. I would assume that is not included in that tally, because it isn't like if you bought the Flyers they are going to sell you CSN.

I understand what you're saying, but if CSN had such a stake in the Flyers, you'd think they'd cover them a bit more/do a better job covering them.

I can't turn on CSN without seeing the Eagles, Phillies, or the freaking Sixers.

Flyers get the back-end of whatever half-hour slot they can find and use it for injury updates while the Sixers coverage goes in depth into coaching philosophies, key players, etc.

If CSN has an serious interest in the Flyers, their other programing certainly doesn't show it.

IrishSniper87 11-12-2009 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081505)
I understand what you're saying, but if CSN had such a stake in the Flyers, you'd think they'd cover them a bit more/do a better job covering them.

I can't turn on CSN without seeing the Eagles, Phillies, or the freaking Sixers.

Flyers get the back-end of whatever half-hour slot they can find and use it for injury updates while the Sixers coverage goes in depth into coaching philosophies, key players, etc.

If CSN has an serious interest in the Flyers, their other programing certainly doesn't show it.

I don't know about that. CN8 plays the orange line whatever that is TV show like all day. That's kinda cool, I guess.

I do hate basketball though. Nothing would make me happier then Philly giving more media coverage to the Flyers.

Honestly though, we have been quite fortunate. The Sixers have been average to mediocre this decade, the Phillies won a WS, the Flyers are always good except for that one year, and the Eagles have multiple double digit win seasons this decade.

Being a Philly sports fan is awesome right now, I hope all our teams continue to find success. Except the Sixers. I want them to lose a lot and get a stud draft pick.

CS 11-12-2009 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081502)
It would take a complete collapse of the auto industry, and given that the gov't has decided they are "too big to fail" I wouldn't count on it happening. But...Detroit itself is already dead economically.

Worth the read on the state of Detroit: http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2...y-and-new.html

Wow, some of those pictures definitely hit home, but if this de-urbanization is so stunning, then it's incredible that the Red Wings have held on so long as a top 5 organization based on Forbes. It's more of a testament to the fan base.

IrishSniper87 11-12-2009 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081579)
Wow, some of those pictures definitely hit home, but if this de-urbanization is so stunning, then it's incredible that the Red Wings have held on so long as a top 5 organization based on Forbes. It's more of a testament to the fan base.

And the fact the numbers are mostly from last year ...

Wait until next years Forbes report, season ticket holders giving up their seats and such didnt affect those numbers until this season.

CS 11-12-2009 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 (Post 22081563)
I don't know about that. CN8 plays the orange line whatever that is TV show like all day. That's kinda cool, I guess.

I do hate basketball though. Nothing would make me happier then Philly giving more media coverage to the Flyers.

Honestly though, we have been quite fortunate. The Sixers have been average to mediocre this decade, the Phillies won a WS, the Flyers are always good except for that one year, and the Eagles have multiple double digit win seasons this decade.

Being a Philly sports fan is awesome right now, I hope all our teams continue to find success. Except the Sixers. I want them to lose a lot and get a stud draft pick.

The Sixers have a whole host of issues right now, not unlike the entirety of the NBA. I could go into those issues, but it's an entire laundry list. CBA judgement day is coming quickly for professional basketball though.

I'm hoping the Union rise a little more in Philly as well, kind of in the way that the MLL never did. No team has been able to make our top four into a top five.

The AHL, AFL, LFL (haha what a joke), etc all tried, but were doomed to fail because they're basically minor leagues. Same for baseball. The NLL and MLL fought too much with each other to make any headway.

MLS is looking good right now in Philly. There's a lot of interest for them, granted no where near what they need to make an impact. They definitely want to become Philly's fifth sport; whether or not it is time/assets-worthy endeavor.

As far as the whole "being a Philly sports fan right now is awesome" thing, I'm glad that the Eagles and Phillies are finally catching up to us in ability keeping their winning ways year after year (at least decently anyway). Still, Flyers coverage remains a crapshoot.

I spent a number of years in DC going to school, and I watched the Verizon center go from a mass take-over by every away team on game day into an "real" game day fan base. Granted frontrunners make the world go 'round, but the entire point of this is that their coverage of the Capitals is as good as the Flyers down there.

How in the world do the Capitals have as good coverage as the Flyers? Don't get me wrong; they're the only moderately successful team on game-day down in Washington (still get less coverage than the Nats, Skins, and Wizards), but the fact that a top five NHL team in value (and on the ice?) gets the back-end of whatever sports coverage that CSN has (and we're even OWNED by Comcast) is annoying.

What may be even worse is that fan support, especially from what I've seen at Philly Sports blogs (including PP), has the Flyers far ahead of the Sixers. Maybe I know the wrong people, but I think CSN treating the Flyers as an after-thought is unwarranted.

Jester 11-12-2009 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081505)
I understand what you're saying, but if CSN had such a stake in the Flyers, you'd think they'd cover them a bit more/do a better job covering them.

I can't turn on CSN without seeing the Eagles, Phillies, or the freaking Sixers.

Flyers get the back-end of whatever half-hour slot they can find and use it for injury updates while the Sixers coverage goes in depth into coaching philosophies, key players, etc.

If CSN has an serious interest in the Flyers, their other programing certainly doesn't show it.

Um...what?

The Phillies were just in the WS, now that coverage will tucker out. The Eagles are the most popular team in the city, and therefore get a lot of coverage to draw in viewers. The Sixers...******* step-child on Comcast. They were actually cracking jokes on DNL yesterday about how no one cares about the Sixers. The Flyers have more of their games on CSN than the Sixers, you have the Orange Line show now, and the Flyers will get primary coverage as we get into the spring and the season ramps up.

However, the real point is that Comcast owns CSN and "The Comcast Network," so they aren't paying out money to broadcast the Flyers. It also means that the Flyers corporate parent gets all the ad revenue of broadcasting the team (and we get some of the better ratings in the NHL) without having to pay for the broadcasting rights. The Flyers are a cash cow for Comcast, but a lot of that money is outside the financials of the team itself.

Sixers are also owned by Comcast, so they're going to get attention on CSN...but the Flyers get significantly more air-time on CSN than the Sixers.

EDIT: And don't underestimate Comcast's desire to market the Sixers (who need it). They've averaged 11,537 their first 4 home games this year. Flyers have averaged 19,278.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081579)
Wow, some of those pictures definitely hit home, but if this de-urbanization is so stunning, then it's incredible that the Red Wings have held on so long as a top 5 organization based on Forbes. It's more of a testament to the fan base.

The fan base is outside of Detroit itself, and that industry may very well be economy-proof if the gov't is going to keep bailing it out. They've had trouble selling tickets there for years, but have great TV ratings and all of that jazz.

CS 11-12-2009 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081675)

Sixers are also owned by Comcast, so they're going to get attention on CSN...but the Flyers get significantly more air-time on CSN than the Sixers.

I completely disagree with that. The show is very nice, and I understand that we get a lot of games on CSN.

Still, tune into SportsRise sometime...or Daily News.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081675)
EDIT: And don't underestimate Comcast's desire to market the Sixers (who need it). They've averaged 11,537 their first 4 home games this year. Flyers have averaged 19,278.

That's the tale of the NBA lately. They have all sorts of issues to work out.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081675)
The fan base is outside of Detroit itself, and that industry may very well be economy-proof if the gov't is going to keep bailing it out. They've had trouble selling tickets there for years, but have great TV ratings and all of that jazz.

That makes a little more sense. I do know that merch sales for the NHL are up once again even though gate sales are down in the economy. Even viewership is up.

They're covering it in the Business section here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yooper wings fan (Post 22081275)
With a struggling economy in MI and the DRW are up 11% in revenues.


Jester 11-12-2009 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081701)
I completely disagree with that. The show is very nice, and I understand that we get a lot of games on CSN.

Still, tune into SportsRise sometime...or Daily News.

I watch Sportsrise every day...and DNL on a slightly less regular basis. If you think the Flyers are getting the short straw of coverage on CSN you're letting your personal desires cloud what's going on. The Flyers have absolutely gotten less coverage than the Phils/Eagles (as they should this time of year, it's friggin November...), and the Sixers season just started so they're getting the coverage that we got in October.

However, the Flyers have 10-15 more games on CSN than the Sixers (forget the exact numbers). Generally speaking, when CSN is making a choice they choose a Flyers broadcast over a Sixers broadcast.

CS 11-12-2009 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081743)
I watch Sportsrise every day...and DNL on a slightly less regular basis. If you think the Flyers are getting the short straw of coverage on CSN you're letting your personal desires cloud what's going on. The Flyers have absolutely gotten less coverage than the Phils/Eagles (as they should this time of year, it's friggin November...), and the Sixers season just started so they're getting the coverage that we got in October.

However, the Flyers have 10-15 more games on CSN than the Sixers (forget the exact numbers). Generally speaking, when CSN is making a choice they choose a Flyers broadcast over a Sixers broadcast.

The Phils and Eagles are well and good. That's understandable.

Maybe it is personal desires, but I watch the same programing you do and get a completely different opinion of it.

I've been away for four years and missed a lot of the preseason/offseason talk on CSN this summer because I was either in DC or running out to camps/prospect stuff for both the Flyers and Capitals.

If the Flyers did get this kind of coverage when the season was just starting then I missed it completely.

There's also our crappy scheduling to take into consideration. We're getting so many long breaks recently.

You could be right, but it's still unsettling to see us used as a brief injury update on our home network.

Jester 11-12-2009 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 22081788)
The Phils and Eagles are well and good. That's understandable.

Maybe it is personal desires, but I watch the same programing you do and get a completely different opinion of it.

I've been away for four years and missed a lot of the preseason/offseason talk on CSN this summer because I was either in DC or running out to camps/prospect stuff for both the Flyers and Capitals.

If the Flyers did get this kind of coverage when the season was just starting then I missed it completely.

There's also our crappy scheduling to take into consideration. We're getting so many long breaks recently.

You could be right, but it's still unsettling to see us used as a brief injury update on our home network.

They do "Meet the Flyers" and all that jazz...aired all the press conferences over the summer. Right now we have a feature on Ray Emery returning to Ottawa, discussion of Briere, and a look at the upcoming schedule...on a morning when we haven't played a game in a few days. Once football is past us, the Flyers are the lead story and the primary presence on CSN most days.

The coverage the Flyers get is good, but, in reality, is completely independent to the financial side of why understanding the Comcast/CSN dynamic is important to understanding the value of the Flyers to Comcast. Flyers give them ~75 games + playoffs of good ratings for a network that they can generate ad revenue off of...that's not something that I think gets rolled up in the "value of the franchise" number, because you aren't buying CSN with them.

IrishSniper87 11-12-2009 09:24 AM

Is it out of the realm of possibility to assume the Flyers are really worth far more then the $270 posted due to the fact they are owned by Comcast-Spectacor and a lot of the Flyers revenue shows up as Comcast revenue on the earnings reports?

CS 11-12-2009 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 22081858)
The coverage the Flyers get is good, but, in reality, is completely independent to the financial side of why understanding the Comcast/CSN dynamic is important to understanding the value of the Flyers to Comcast. Flyers give them ~75 games + playoffs of good ratings for a network that they can generate ad revenue off of...that's not something that I think gets rolled up in the "value of the franchise" number, because you aren't buying CSN with them.

No, dropping the coverage argument, you're absolutely right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 (Post 22081880)
Is it out of the realm of possibility to assume the Flyers are really worth far more then the $270 posted due to the fact they are owned by Comcast-Spectacor and a lot of the Flyers revenue shows up as Comcast revenue on the earnings reports?

That's sort of what Jester is saying.

Jester 11-12-2009 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 (Post 22081880)
Is it out of the realm of possibility to assume the Flyers are really worth far more then the $270 posted due to the fact they are owned by Comcast-Spectacor and a lot of the Flyers revenue shows up as Comcast revenue on the earnings reports?

Ah, depends how you want to define their worth. I would wager they are worth more than that TO COMCAST, and would suspect that the $270M number is how much they would be worth based on the Flyers' intrinsic qualities. It is possible, however, that the number does reflect how much Comcast values them at (you're only "worth" what someone is willing to sell you for)...but I'm not sure I buy that is how they're evaluating them without knowing their process.

So, I would guess that they are worth $270M as an individual property, but that doesn't take into account how much revenue they generate for Comcast due to their particular situation of being a cable provider with their own sports network....getting free programming is huge for networks, and that's why teams that have their own network are some of the richest in sports.

Valhoun* 11-12-2009 09:59 AM

I would guess that the values of teams is skewed almost entirely by the fact that the teams that also own their venues rather than lease them are extraordinarily more valuable than teams that merely lease.

Jester 11-12-2009 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valhoun (Post 22082268)
I would guess that the values of teams is skewed almost entirely by the fact that the teams that also own their venues rather than lease them are extraordinarily more valuable than teams that merely lease.

Yeah, it's a huge factor. Merchandise revenue is also huge. That's why the Leafs have so much more revenue, for example.


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