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-   -   ATD #12, Foster Hewitt Quarterfinals. Tidewater Sharks (1) vs. Victoria Cougars (8) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=707379)

Leafs Forever 11-25-2009 06:56 AM

ATD #12, Foster Hewitt Quarterfinals. Tidewater Sharks (1) vs. Victoria Cougars (8)
 
Tidewater Sharks

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...0/tidsha76.gif

GM: Hedberg
Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Michel Goulet - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr
Mats Naslund - Pave Datsyuk - Rick Tocchet
Bob Gainey (A) - Pit Lepine - Jerry Toppazzini
Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Kris Draper - Bill Guerin

Chris Chelios (A) - Marcel Pronovost
Herb Gardiner - Terry Harper
Graham Drinkwater - Moose Goheen
Bobby Rowe

Tony Esposito
Viktor Konovalenko

PP1
Goulet - Delvecchio - Jagr
Chelios - Gardiner

PP2
Naslund - Datsyuk - Tocchet
Drinkwater - Goheen

PK1
Gainey - Datsyuk
Chelios - Pronovost

PK2
Loktev - Almetov
Harper - Gardiner

Florida Hammerheads (MLD)
Robert McDougall - Normie Himes - Haviland Routh
Dolly Swift - Sergei Babinov
Billy Nicholson

vs

VICTORIA COUGARS
http://www.azhockey.com/images%20-%2...riaCougars.jpg

GM: JFA87-66-99
Coach: Lindy Ruff
Assistant Coach: Victor Tikhonov

LW Charlie Simmer-C Peter Forsberg(A)-RW Maurice Richard(C)
LW Anatoli Firsov(A)-C Evgeni Malkin-RW Pavel Bure
LW Vsevolod Bobrov-C Vincent Lecavalier-RW Russell Bowie
LW Tomas Holmstrom-C Harry Smith-RW Yvgeni Babich

Brian Leetch(A)-Edward Ivanov
Nikolai Sologubov-Ivan Tregubov
Lennart Svedberg-Ian Turnbull

Tiny Thompson
Bouse Hutton

Power Play #1
LW Anatoli Firsov(A)-C Peter Forsberg(A)-RW Maurice Richard(C)
D Brian Leetch(A)-D Lennart Svedberg

Power Play #2
LW Tomas Holmstrom-C Vincent Lecavalier-RW Pavel Bure
D Evgeni Malkin-D Nikolai Sologubov

Penalty Killing #1
C Peter Forsberg(A)-W Yevgeni Babich
D Edward Ivanov-D Ivan Tregubov

Penalty Killing #2
C Vincent Lecavalier-W Anatoli Firsov(A)
D Brian Leetch(A)-D Nikolai Sologubov

Spares:
F Tumba Johansson
F Alexei Guryshev
D Ed Jovanovski
G Pelle Lindbergh
F Herb Jordan
F Lorne Campbell
D James Stewart
D Fred Higginbotham

Hedberg 11-26-2009 03:07 PM

Victoria is basically an all-out offensive attack, a style I'm not sure works when you don't have home-ice due to the matchup game. I think Tidewater has the guys to shut down some of the Cougars attack in Datsyuk, Gainey, Almetov (PK especially), Lepine, and Loktev up front with Chelios, Pronovost, and Harper on the backend. Not to mention that Chernyshev knows the styles of Bobrov, Firsov, and Babich extremely well. I'm not seeing the corresponding defensive players on Victoria

JFA87-66-99 11-27-2009 06:06 AM

I think Victoria could take this series. Victoria is going to be coming at tidewater with non-stop speed & offense the whole game. I think Tidewater's team might get worn down plus they dont have the fire power to keep up with Victoria. Victoria's teams has quite a few money players on there team as well. Victoria is the most underrated team in this ATD. They have the best offense in this draft, and despite what people might say I think Tidewater is going to have a very tough time keeping up. You can't worry about matching lines with Vicoria because they have 3 lines that can score at will, & I think Tidewater is going to have a tough time dealing with all of Victoria's team speed and waves of offense.

Hedberg 11-27-2009 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22334014)
I think Tidewater's team might get worn down plus they dont have the fire power to keep up with Victoria. Victoria's teams has quite a few money players on there team as well

I don't think Tidewater will get worn out. They're more physical than Victoria, they're not really a slow team either and Tidewater is not completely outclassed by Victoria's forwards in terms of offensive potential. The top 6 will have enough shifts where they will dictate the play. In addition to scoring, Tidewater will "keep up" to Victoria by frustrating them with relentless checking and exposing the defensive weaknesses of Victoria, which should give Tidewater's bottom 6 some nice opportunities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22334014)
I think Tidewater is going to have a tough time dealing with all of Victoria's team speed and waves of offense.

There is probably more offensive potential on Victoria, but as I've mentioned before, there's less defensive potential. For example, both squads have what should be good powerplays, but because Tidewater has the better penalty killers, Tidewater could probably outscore Victoria on the powerplay. The same concept applies to even strength

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2009 05:38 PM

Tidewater is obviously favored as the #1 seed, but I'd like to know their plan for stopping Maurice Richard in the playoffs. It might be obvious, but I'd like to know for sure.

JFA87-66-99 11-27-2009 09:36 PM

I do think Tidewater has a good team, but looking at both teams lineups I just dont think Tidewater's team is as good. I personally think there team doesn't have enough firepower after there top 6 to keep up. I Also think that Chelios & Pronovost are going to be very tired because there going to have to play a ton of minutes in this series. I think they might try and play too physical and get worn down by Victoria's offense and with all Victoria's slick forwards they can definately make you miss. If Tidewater expects to keep up with Victoria's there going to have use all 4 lines. Sure Victoria might not have the best defense, but there offense is going to score a ton of goals, and Tiny Thompson will stand on his head in the playoffs. Also think there defensive core as a whole is underrated. Brian Leetch is one of the best offensive defenseman of all-time, Nikolai Sologubov is often considered to be one of the best defensemen in russian history, and has been referred to many times as the Bobby Orr of Russia. Sologubov and Lennart Svedberg could have been stars in the NHL. Tregubov and Ivanov are both elite defensive defensemen who can move the puck up the ice. I think Tidewater is going to have a very difficult time dealing with Victoria's transition game. All 6 of Victoria's defensemen can handle and move the puck with precision passing which is going to create a lot of oppurtunities for Richard,Forsberg,Bure,Malkin,Bobrov,Bowie,etc. Tidewater's captain and best player is Jaromir Jagr who was a sick player, but not someone you would want to lead your team especially if things gets tough he could buckle like he has done before. On the other hand Maurice Richard is Victoria's captain and best player and IS someone you would want to lead your team especially if your the underdog like Victoria is. All in All I think Victoria has too much skill,raw talent, & supreme hockey sense for Tidewater to handle. I think Maurice Richard will terrorize Tidewater/Esposito and be the MVP of this series.

Hedberg 11-27-2009 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22347603)
Tidewater's captain and best player is Jaromir Jagr who was a sick player, but not someone you would want to lead your team especially if things gets tough he could buckle like he has done before.

Delvecchio is my captain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 22343067)
Tidewater is obviously favored as the #1 seed, but I'd like to know their plan for stopping Maurice Richard in the playoffs. It might be obvious, but I'd like to know for sure.

Gainey + Chelios + Pronovost probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22347603)
Tiny Thompson will stand on his head in the playoffs.

Any goalie at this level could do it, but it's far from a guarantee.

I think it's clear there's two philosophies about this series:
Tidewater's: Tidewater's defensive game will limit Victoria's offence enough to allow Tidewater's offence to outscore Victoria

Victoria's: Victoria's offence is sufficiently better than Tidewater's which will allow them to win despite their below-average defensive game and Tidewater's defence.

Leafs Forever 11-27-2009 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22347928)
Gainey + Chelios + Pronovost probably.

Well, if I wanted to try and stop Maurice Richard, Gainey would be at or near the top of most guys lists; which is good for you.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2009 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafs Forever (Post 22348002)
Well, if I wanted to try and stop Maurice Richard, Gainey would be at or near the top of most guys lists; which is good for you.

I mostly want to know if Tidewater will linematch the 3rd line with the Cougar's first line (giving Gainey and company extra ice time), if Gainey personally will shadow Richard, regardless of the other players on the ice, etc.

How strict the matchup game will be, basically.

Hedberg 11-27-2009 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 22348333)
I mostly want to know if Tidewater will linematch the 3rd line with the Cougar's first line (giving Gainey and company extra ice time), if Gainey personally will shadow Richard, regardless of the other players on the ice, etc.

How strict the matchup game will be, basically.

I'm the GM, not the coach :sarcasm:

As for shadowing, probably not. I'm sure Gainey will pay close attention to Richard, but the shadow role is too limiting. If we key in too much on Richard, it leaves other guys open. Line matching will obviously depend on the score. I'm sure the Datsyuk line could handle some shifts against Richard. Chelios and Pronovost will see as much time vs. Richard as possible.

MXD 11-28-2009 02:50 PM

Seriously, I like the Cougars chances here (Forsberg and Richard, AWESOME), but they're gonna have at least one dysfuctionnal D pair...

TheDevilMadeMe 11-28-2009 03:20 PM

I think the key to this series is whether Tidewater can slow the pace of the game down. They have the guys to do it - Chelios and Jagr in particular.

If Tidewater can control puck possession, they should win, possibly easily.

If Tidewater gets into a run-and-gun game with Victoria, there is definitely a chance for an upset. JFA might be loaded with one-dimenstional offensive players, but they are clutch one-dimensional offensive players - Richard, Forsberg (though not one-dimensional), Firsov, Leetch in particular, but Malkin, Bure, and Bobrov were/are pretty good in big games themselves.

I wonder if Victoria would have been an 8th seed if JFA had changed up the lines before regular season voting started.

JFA87-66-99 11-28-2009 05:57 PM

If Tidewater worries about matching there 3rd line against Victoria's 1st line there gonna be in for a long series. Victoria's 2nd & 3rd will then take over and dominate. Like I said before Tidewater cannot worry about matching lines in this series., Victoria has too much speed and skill. I'd expect Pavel Bure & Russell Bowie to have very good series if this is the case.

Hedberg 11-28-2009 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22359104)
If Tidewater worries about matching there 3rd line against Victoria's 1st line there gonna be in for a long series. Victoria's 2nd & 3rd will then take over and dominate. Like I said before Tidewater cannot worry about matching lines in this series., Victoria has too much speed and skill. I'd expect Pavel Bure & Russell Bowie to have very good
series if this is the case.

All my lines are defensively competent; none of them will get "dominated." And you're really overstating your offensive superiority. Firsov-Malkin-Bure is going to dominate Naslund-Datsyuk-Tocchet? I doubt it. Naslund, Datsyuk, and Tocchet are all aggresive forecheckers, which would cause problems for a line that's pretty weak defensively. I also can't see how Bobrov-Lecavalier-Bowie is going to dominate Goulet-Delvecchio-Jagr.
Also overlooked is Tidewater's fourth line. It has wonderful chemistry, is defensively aggressive, and brings more offence than Victoria's fourth line

This argument is kind of going in circles. As I posted before, there's two philosophies to this series and it's up to the voters to decide on which one they subscribe to.

JFA87-66-99 11-28-2009 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22360518)
All my lines are defensively competent; none of them will get "dominated." And you're really overstating your offensive superiority. Firsov-Malkin-Bure is going to dominate Naslund-Datsyuk-Tocchet? I doubt it. Naslund, Datsyuk, and Tocchet are all aggresive forecheckers, which would cause problems for a line that's pretty weak defensively. I also can't see how Bobrov-Lecavalier-Bowie is going to dominate Goulet-Delvecchio-Jagr.
Also overlooked is Tidewater's fourth line. It has wonderful chemistry, is defensively aggressive, and brings more offence than Victoria's fourth line

This argument is kind of going in circles. As I posted before, there's two philosophies to this series and it's up to the voters to decide on which one they subscribe to.

I just think that Tidewater is going to be too worried about playing defense rather than scoring goals. There defense is going to back peddaling and playing in there own end to much. If Tidewater makes any mistakes on the rush or in the neutral zone Victoria's defense will have the puck in the offensive zone in a split second. Then look for Victoria's forwards to create. There top 3 lines can create offense out of nothing and in a split second. I do like Tidewater's team and overall concept however I think Tidewater's bottom 6 and are going to have fits trying to stop Victoria's bottom 6. I think Bob Gainey is good but overrated. Gainey can't not shadow everyone on the ice, and is a mismatch against Richard, and I dont think he's fast enough to shadow Bure. I think Victoria wins this series regardless of seed. Victoria is the better hockey team from top to bottom. Maurice Richard is the clutchest player of all-time. Forsberg led the the 2002 NHL playoffs in scoring despite his team losing in the conference finals. Malkin & Leetch have a conn smythe each, and Richard & Thompson would have some as well. I know the same could be said for Tidewaters squad, but this just gives an idea of how clutch Victoria is, and they'll love being the underdog. I think Victoria's wins this series in a suprisingly 4-5 games.

Hedberg 11-28-2009 10:11 PM

I just think that Victoria is going to be too worried about trying to get chances to bother playing defence. Their offence is going to be playing sloppily and breaking down too much. If Victoria makes any mistakes on the rush or in the neutral zone, Tidewaters's defence will have the puck in the offensive zone in a split second. Then look for Tidewater's forwards to create. Their top 2 lines can create offense out of nothing and in a split second and their bottom 6 are miserable to play against. I do think Victoria's team was rated too low however I think Victoria's forwards can not cover Tidewater's forwards whereas Tidewater's can cover Victoria's. I really don't see anyone on Victoria that could be considered a great defensive forward. Tidewater is clutch: Datsyuk: 2 cups, Chelios: 3 cups, Gainey: 5 cups, Jagr: 2 cups, Draper: 4 cups, Guerin: 2 cups, Tocchet: 1 cup, Delvechhio: 3 cups, Harper: 5 cups, Pronovost: 5 cups, Lepine: 2 cups, Drinkwater: 6 cups, etc. I think Tidewater wins this series regardless of seed. Tidewater is the better hockey team from top to bottom. I think Tidewater wins this series in 4-5 games.

Edit: I realize this comes across as a bit of a jerk post. I apologize.

JFA87-66-99 11-28-2009 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22367234)
I just think that Victoria is going to be too worried about trying to get chances to bother playing defence. Their offence is going to be playing sloppily and breaking down too much. If Victoria makes any mistakes on the rush or in the neutral zone, Tidewaters's defence will have the puck in the offensive zone in a split second. Then look for Tidewater's forwards to create. Their top 2 lines can create offense out of nothing and in a split second and their bottom 6 are miserable to play against. I do think Victoria's team was rated too low however I think Victoria's forwards can not cover Tidewater's forwards whereas Tidewater's can cover Victoria's. I really don't see anyone on Victoria that could be considered a great defensive forward. Tidewater is clutch: Datsyuk: 2 cups, Chelios: 3 cups, Gainey: 5 cups, Jagr: 2 cups, Draper: 4 cups, Guerin: 2 cups, Tocchet: 1 cup, Delvechhio: 3 cups, Harper: 5 cups, Pronovost: 5 cups, Lepine: 2 cups, Drinkwater: 6 cups, etc. I think Tidewater wins this series regardless of seed. Tidewater is the better hockey team from top to bottom. I think Tidewater wins this series in 4-5 games.

Nobody on Tidewater's whole defense can move the puck like Victoria 3 best offensive defensmen. I see a lot of cups but no conn smythe's, and Peter Forsberg was one of the best all-around players of all-time. I dont expect guys like Pit lepine,Toppazini or even Tocchet for that matter to be a factor in this series.

Leafs Forever 11-28-2009 10:23 PM

I'm going to note that stanley cups isn't really a measure of clutchness to me. It's a measure of success in the playoffs somewhat, but not clutchness.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-28-2009 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafs Forever (Post 22367550)
I'm going to note that stanley cups isn't really a measure of clutchness to me. It's a measure of success in the playoffs somewhat, but not clutchness.

Yeah, I don't think I would call Datsyuk a "clutch" player, for one. He almost had 3 Cups, but was only good in one of the runs.

Hedberg 11-28-2009 10:50 PM

Just to clarify, my last post was only meant to illustrate how this argument is running around in pointless circles. It was a rewording of JFA's post. It's not really meant as an argument. I think both GMs have made their cases sufficiently and now no new information is being presented, only rehashes of the first few posts. Just because you repeat something over and over does not make it more valid. I think everyone gets it (and the same applies to my posts as well). I personally feel declaring one's team will sweep your opponent is a bit poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafs Forever (Post 22367550)
I'm going to note that stanley cups isn't really a measure of clutchness to me. It's a measure of success in the playoffs somewhat, but not clutchness.

I actually agree with this. In reality, I doubt, for example, I'd describe Terry Harper as "clutch."

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22365757)
Maurice Richard is the clutchest player of all-time.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...estExploit.png

Hedberg 11-28-2009 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22367507)
Nobody on Tidewater's whole defense can move the puck like Victoria 3 best offensive defensmen.

They're not as good as Leetch, but they're good puck movers.

Graham Drinkwater:
Legends of Hockey:
Quote:

Brilliant stickhandling, a natural scoring touch and team-permeating enthusiasm characterized Drinkwater's play. Graham Drinkwater's smooth-skating and well-rounded game made him one of the top stars during hockey's formative period.

Drinkwater's end-to-end goal-producing rush in the first match proved to be the most memorable point in the epic struggle.
Moose Goheen:
Vintage Minnesota Hockey:
Quote:

"Nothing in sports could ever beat the sight of
Moose Goheen taking the puck, circling behind his own net, and
then taking off down that rink, leaping over sticks along the way."
Chelios is a good transitional defender as well and Herb Gardiner was noted as a two way defenceman. They may not move the puck as well, but I don't think puck moving is a problem.

seventieslord 11-29-2009 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22367234)
Edit: I realize this comes across as a bit of a jerk post. I apologize.

It's no holds barred in the playoffs, man. Don't worry.

I like JFA a lot, he's a great new GM who clearly wants to learn from us all. But I admit your post made me laugh and it was very effective at conveying exactly what you wanted to convey.

God Bless Canada 11-29-2009 03:41 PM

Tidewater wins the first-round best-of-seven series 4-1.

Three stars:
1. Chris Chelios
2. Jaromir Jagr
3. Maurice "Rocket" Richard

JFA87-66-99 11-29-2009 08:30 PM

Congratulations Hedberg and the Tidewater Sharks! Good luck in the 2nd round. You have a very solid team, but still think this series would have gone 7 games either way.

Hedberg 11-30-2009 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 (Post 22380777)
You have a very solid team, but still think this series would have gone 7 games either way.

Most of my post was sarcastic, but I really did feel your team was under-rated. It was a great first time entry and probably if it had just a few more defensive players (sorry for nagging about this again ;)), you would have easily been a contender.


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