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-   -   ATD 12 Foster Hewitt Division Semi-Final: 1 Tidewater Sharks vs. 5 Trinec Steelers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=708897)

God Bless Canada 11-29-2009 03:44 PM

ATD 12 Foster Hewitt Division Semi-Final: 1 Tidewater Sharks vs. 5 Trinec Steelers
 
TIDEWATER SHARKS

GM: Hedberg
Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Michel Goulet - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr
Mats Naslund - Pave Datsyuk - Rick Tocchet
Bob Gainey (A) - Pit Lepine - Jerry Toppazzini
Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Kris Draper - Bill Guerin

Chris Chelios (A) - Marcel Pronovost
Herb Gardiner - Terry Harper
Graham Drinkwater - Moose Goheen
Bobby Rowe

Tony Esposito
Viktor Konovalenko

PP1
Goulet - Delvecchio - Jagr
Chelios - Gardiner

PP2
Naslund - Datsyuk - Tocchet
Drinkwater - Goheen

PK1
Gainey - Datsyuk
Chelios - Pronovost

PK2
Loktev - Almetov
Harper - Gardiner

Florida Hammerheads (MLD)
Robert McDougall - Normie Himes - Haviland Routh
Dolly Swift - Sergei Babinov
Billy Nicholson


VS


TRINEC STEELERS

GM: Reds4Life
Coach: Al Arbour
Assistant Coach: Luděk Bukač

Alex Ovechkin - Igor Larionov(A) - Vladimir Martinec
Cy Denneny - Mike Modano - Claude Lemieux
Brenden Morrow - Ryan Getzlaf - Trevor Linden
Kirk Maltby - John Madden - Samuel Pahlsson

Eddie Shore(C) - Vitaly Davydov
Borje Salming(A) - Vladimir Konstantinov
Ulf Samuelsson - Gary Bergman
Gennady Tsygankov

Rogatien Vachon
Chris Osgood

Slava Kozlov, F
Vladimir Zabrodsky, F
Karel Gut, D
Jaroslav Jirik, F
Jiří Králík, G
Vladimír Růžička, F
PJ Axelsson, F

PowerPlay Unit 1:
Getzlaf - Larionov - Martinec
Ovechkin - Shore

PowerPlay Unit 2:
Denneny - Modano - Lemieux
Salming - Davydov

Penalty Kill Unit 1:
Morrow - Madden
Shore - Bergman

Penalty Kill Unint 2:
Axelsson - Pahlsson
Salming - Tsygakov

Reds4Life 11-30-2009 02:43 AM

Looking forward to these series :)

Michel Goulet - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr
vs
Alex Ovechkin - Igor Larionov(A) - Vladimir Martinec

I have a better LW in Ovechkin but Jagr is much better than Martinec and by far the best offensive player in the series. Larionov vs Delvecchio is very close imho, maybe slight edge to Delvecchio.
Overall - Advantage Sharks

Mats Naslund - Pave Datsyuk - Rick Tocchet
vs
Cy Denneny - Mike Modano - Claude Lemieux

I have, again, a far better LW in Denneny. Datsyuk vs. Modano is very close, slight edge Modano. Lemieux is better than Tocchet in playoffs.
Overall - Advantage Steelers

Bob Gainey (A) - Pit Lepine - Jerry Toppazzini
vs
Brenden Morrow - Ryan Getzlaf - Trevor Linden
Gainey is obviously the best defensive forward in the series, but Morrow is better offensively and will not back down against Bob at all. Getzlaf has a very big physical advatnage over Lepine. Lepine's playoff record is pretty bad. Getzlaf is a far better playoff performer and a better offensive player. Linden is better offensive player than Toppazzini and is bigger.
Overall - Slight advantage Steelers

Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
vs
Kirk Maltby - John Madden - Samuel Pahlsson

4th lines are hard to compare, though I am confident I have better defensive players with more grit. Though Russians might be better scorers, I do not expect them to outscore my 4th line given my superior defense corps and your 4th liners' limited minutes.

Eddie Shore(C) - Vitaly Davydov/Gennady Tsygankov
vs
Chris Chelios (A) - Marcel Pronovost

Shore is by far the best defenseman in the series. Davydov and Tsygakov are both very solid defensemen capable of sharing top pairing minutes with ease, but Pronovost is better than either of them. So I'd call this one a tie.

Herb Gardiner - Terry Harper
vs
Borje Salming(A) - Vladimir Konstantinov

My second pairing is better than yours, and it is not close either.

Ulf Samuelsson - Gary Bergman
vs
Graham Drinkwater - Moose Goheen

My third pairing is more physical and better defensively.


You have advantage in goal, but it's not a big advantage and I am confident Vachon will not lose any games for Steelers.
I have a big advantage at the Coach position, Al Arbour can, and will, outcoach Arkady Chernyshev with ease.

jarek 11-30-2009 10:21 AM

I wouldn't be so quick to say that Arbour will outcoach Chernyshev with ease. Chernyshev was the assistant coach for Tarasov for many, many years. To think that any of Tarasov's genius didn't rub off on Chernyshev is a little naive IMO. Chernyshev is a very respected Russian coach that simply worked in Tarasov's shadow.

Reds4Life 11-30-2009 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jareklajkosz (Post 22387528)
I wouldn't be so quick to say that Arbour will outcoach Chernyshev with ease. Chernyshev was the assistant coach for Tarasov for many, many years. To think that any of Tarasov's genius didn't rub off on Chernyshev is a little naive IMO. Chernyshev is a very respected Russian coach that simply worked in Tarasov's shadow.

Arbour is third best coach ever. Chernyshev is not really close.

jarek 11-30-2009 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22387543)
Arbour is third best coach ever. Chernyshev is not really close.

Yeah, I understand that, but don't underrate Chernyshev. Tarasov himself was quoted as saying that he and Chernyshev had many enlightening discussions with each other about coaching - clearly Chernyshev wasn't just the guy that patted players on the back. He had his own thoughts and ideas and he clearly had a profound effect on Tarasov. He's a good coach in my eyes.

Reds4Life 11-30-2009 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jareklajkosz (Post 22387749)
Yeah, I understand that, but don't underrate Chernyshev. Tarasov himself was quoted as saying that he and Chernyshev had many enlightening discussions with each other about coaching - clearly Chernyshev wasn't just the guy that patted players on the back. He had his own thoughts and ideas and he clearly had a profound effect on Tarasov. He's a good coach in my eyes.

Yeah, a good coach. But what ATD coach is not a good coach? Cherry perhaps? Arbour is amongst the very best ever, so I do not think you can make a valid case for Chernyshev being close to Arbour.

jarek 11-30-2009 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22387793)
Yeah, a good coach. But what ATD coach is not a good coach? Cherry perhaps? Arbour is amongst the very best ever, so I do not think you can make a valid case for Chernyshev being close to Arbour.

Close? No, but this is not a match up Arbour is going to win "with ease".

Hedberg 11-30-2009 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22385633)
Linden is better offensive player than Toppazzini and is bigger.

His stats look better, but in context I don't think he's a better offensive player. Linden's highest scoring finishes were: 35th (95-96), 41st (90-91), 42nd (94-95), 44th (91-92), and 77th (92-93). Toppazzini's highest finishes were: 19th (57-58), 20th (60-61), 21st (61-62), 23rd (59-60), and 25th (58-59)

Reds4Life 11-30-2009 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22388702)
His stats look better, but in context I don't think he's a better offensive player. Linden's highest scoring finishes were: 35th (95-96), 41st (90-91), 42nd (94-95), 44th (91-92), and 77th (92-93). Toppazzini's highest finishes were: 19th (57-58), 20th (60-61), 21st (61-62), 23rd (59-60), and 25th (58-59)


In context, Linden played in a 20 or something to 30-team NHL, while Toppazzini played in a 6-team NHL. Linden is better than Toppazzini offensively imho.

Hedberg 11-30-2009 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22389445)
In context, Linden played in a 20 or something to 30-team NHL, while Toppazzini played in a 6-team NHL. Linden is better than Toppazzini offensively imho.

In a 6 team NHL, you have better quality team mates, but also harder competition while in a 21-26 team NHL you have lesser quality team mates, but also easier competition.

jarek 11-30-2009 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22390091)
In a 6 team NHL, you have better quality team mates, but also harder competition while in a 21-26 team NHL you have lesser quality team mates, but also easier competition.

This. It works out to be about equal in most cases.

Hedberg 11-30-2009 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22385633)
Lemieux is better than Tocchet in playoffs.

I'd still rather have Tocchet than Lemieux. They played in similar era (Lemieux 87-03, Tocchet 85-02), so they're stats are comparable and Tocchet was a better offensive player. Lemieux has 0.67 playoff points per game compared to Tocchet's 0.77 playoff points per game. Obviously Lemieux has a Conn Smyth, but it came in a year where in the regular season he had 19 points in 45 games. In the regular season, Tocchet had 0.83 points per game while Lemieux had a 0.64 points per game. Lemieux's peak was 41 goals and 68 points in 92 while Tocchet's peak was 48 goals and 109 points. He put up 40 three times, twice on the Flyers. Lemieux scored 40 once. I don't think one Conn Smythe is enough to make Lemieux better. In "intangibles," they're about even. Lemieux was a one of the best agitators while Tocchet was one of the best power forwards.

Reds4Life 11-30-2009 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg
In a 6 team NHL, you have better quality team mates, but also harder competition while in a 21-26 team NHL you have lesser quality team mates, but also easier competition.

Easier competition is very debatable. Average playerd from O6 era is not even close to average player from Linden's era. And Linden had to compete against more star/elite players than Toppazzini.
Also there are far more people trying to make the NHL, from all over the World, not just Canada or US.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22390306)
I'd still rather have Tocchet than Lemieux. They played in similar era (Lemieux 87-03, Tocchet 85-02), so they're stats are comparable and Tocchet was a better offensive player. Lemieux has 0.67 playoff points per game compared to Tocchet's 0.77 playoff points per game. Obviously Lemieux has a Conn Smyth, but it came in a year where in the regular season he had 19 points in 45 games. In the regular season, Tocchet had 0.83 points per game while Lemieux had a 0.64 points per game. Lemieux's peak was 41 goals and 68 points in 92 while Tocchet's peak was 48 goals and 109 points. He put up 40 three times, twice on the Flyers. Lemieux scored 40 once. I don't think one Conn Smythe is enough to make Lemieux better. In "intangibles," they're about even. Lemieux was a one of the best agitators while Tocchet was one of the best power forwards.

Lemieux was better than Tocchet in playoffs, despite the 0.1 PPG difference or whatever. Why? Because he scored big goals in big games, it is not just a question of how many goals you score, when you score them is important too.
His Conn Smythe means he is capable of being the best player on a Stanley Cup champion, that has got to count for something.
As for Tocchet's 100+ points season, he only scored so much because of Super Mario.

Hedberg 11-30-2009 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22391103)
As for Tocchet's 100+ points season, he only scored so much because of Super Mario.

I wouldn't say "only." It helped, but he also had two 40 goal seasons (and a 37 goal season with 96 points) on the Flyers, where he had very average linemates.

Hedberg 11-30-2009 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22391103)
Easier competition is very debatable.

For example, goalies Toppazzini faced in 57-58: Jacques Plante, Glenn Hall, Johnny Bower, Gump Worsley, Terry Sawchuk

Goalies Linden faced in 95-96:
In his division: Patrick Roy, Trevor Kidd, Guy Hebert, Bill Ranford, Byron Dafoe, Chris Terrerri
In his conference: Chris Osgood, Jeff Hackett, Grant Fuhr, Felix Potvin, Nikolai Khabibulin, Andy Moog

seventieslord 11-30-2009 04:10 PM

-Toppazzini is definitely a superior offensive player to Trevor Linden. No "size of league" or "quality of competition" argument can change that.

Tidewater is one of my very favourite teams in the draft. I'll need a good reason to vote against them.

vancityluongo 11-30-2009 05:11 PM

Two of my favourite teams in the draft, and the teams I had as top-2 in this division. This series will probably come down to the arguments for me.

Hedberg 11-30-2009 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22385633)
Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
vs
Kirk Maltby - John Madden - Samuel Pahlsson

4th lines are hard to compare, though I am confident I have better defensive players with more grit. Though Russians might be better scorers, I do not expect them to outscore my 4th line given my superior defense corps and your 4th liners' limited minutes.

I would think they could certainly outscore three guys whose career highs are 43 points (Madden), 26 points (Pahlsson), and 37 points (Maltby).

This is the second series where it's been suggested my 4th line will see limited minutes. I don't really view this as the case, I actually think they are among the best fourth lines in the draft. They are everything I want in a fourth line; they can score, are good defensively and have some grit, plus they had real life chemistry.

Kings of the Ice:
Quote:

The Loktev-Almetov-Alexandrov trio was probably the first soviet line in which all the players had equal ability and where each supplemented the other. After receiving a pass from a linemate, Loktev would skate a little with the puck and then get it to Almetov, who was already racing up the left flank. Alexandrov, in the center slot, would then switch places with Almetov. The whole play took only a couple of seconds.
Coach Anatoli Tarasov:
On Almetov:
Quote:

"Perhaps sports fans who have seen our national team in action have noticed that whenever we have one man short, Alexander Almetov is sure to appear on the ice. When it comes to individual play, a question of holding on to the puck and beating off a superior force, Almetov is in a class by himself! He is not a solist, he is a star in the good sense of the word."
On Alexandrov:
Quote:

"I think that our Alexandrov, by his style of game, by his ability to keep a level head even in the most explosive situations, looks something like Maurice Richard, the great master of attack"
International Hockey Legends:
Alexandrov (one of only four players to net 50 in the Soviet League and is the 8th all-time leading scorer at the World Championships):
Quote:

Venjamin Alexandrov was considered the greatest Soviet player of his time. Alexandrov drew some incredible comparisons. He was dubbed "Bobrov 2" in Russia, after the first great Soviet star, Vsevolod Bobrov. The great Russian coach Anatoli Tarasov had another comparison though - Montreal Canadiens star Maurice "Rocket" Richard.
Loktev:
Quote:

Loktev, as coach Anatoli Tarasov puts it, was an original hockey player. He raced up his wing with puck well ahead of him. This must have caused the opposing defenseman to smack his lips in anticipation of a big body check or a turnover. However this was part of Loktev's arsenal. He lured in unsuspecting defenders this way, and then miraculously and almost without fail, he'd put on a beautiful deke to leave the bewildered defenseman up ice as he danced in on the lonely goal keeper. Loktev, who trained by himself in spare time, was a rough player as well, despite his tiny fram of 5'7" and 165 pounds. He never shied away from the boards and would fight for the puck until the whistle had blown. He was punished several times for rough play in his younger days by the Russian hockey federation. That punishment seemed to do him a ton of good, as he calmed down some. He remained aggressive but controlled, and became one of the all time greats.
Almetov:
Quote:

Almetov, like most Russians, was a well trained forward when it came to skating, puckhandling and passing, though he was never an elite scoring threat. Part of that was because Almetov was a superior defensive forward. In fact he was a mainstay on the Russian penalty killing units perhaps the best PK man of his generation.

MXD 11-30-2009 09:42 PM

First shutout ever.

Reds4Life 12-01-2009 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 22392254)
-Toppazzini is definitely a superior offensive player to Trevor Linden. No "size of league" or "quality of competition" argument can change that.

I disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 22400534)
I would think they could certainly outscore three guys whose career highs are 43 points (Madden), 26 points (Pahlsson), and 37 points (Maltby).

This is the second series where it's been suggested my 4th line will see limited minutes. I don't really view this as the case, I actually think they are among the best fourth lines in the draft. They are everything I want in a fourth line; they can score, are good defensively and have some grit, plus they had real life chemistry.

Kings of the Ice:

...

Yeah, your Russian line is pretty good..on a big rink. On a smaller rink, they will not be able to keep the puck for so long and pass anytime they want, so they will not be nearly as effective. Maltby is a proven winner with a wicked shot and a lot of grit. Madden is a Selke-winning speedy center and Pahlsson can shadow just about anyone and has a Cup too, and he was arguably playoff MVP in 07. Actually, my fourth liners have 7 Cups between themselves, they know what it takes to win. Your Russian line cannot match their defensive play. My 4th line is purely defensive, with some PK duties. I do not expect them to score much, but I expect them to bring very good defense and experience.

Hedberg 12-01-2009 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22404618)
Yeah, your Russian line is pretty good..on a big rink. On a smaller rink, they will not be able to keep the puck for so long and pass anytime they want, so they will not be nearly as effective. Maltby is a proven winner with a wicked shot and a lot of grit. Madden is a Selke-winning speedy center and Pahlsson can shadow just about anyone and has a Cup too, and he was arguably playoff MVP in 07. Actually, my fourth liners have 7 Cups between themselves, they know what it takes to win. Your Russian line cannot match their defensive play. My 4th line is purely defensive, with some PK duties. I do not expect them to score much, but I expect them to bring very good defense and experience.

I'm not buying the smaller ice argument. We don't know they'd be less effective on a smaller rink. I actually don't think they'd have much of a problem as they weren't soft (Loktev loved the board work). The Russian Line doesn't have to match your fourth line defensively (although Almetov-Loktev makes a great PK unit), my third line is the shut down unit (plus I have Kris Draper on the roster; he's a better player than any of Madden, Pahlson, or Maltby).

Reds4Life 12-03-2009 02:17 PM

Congratulations Hedberg :)

I wish you luck in the next series!

Hedberg 12-03-2009 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds4Life (Post 22447874)
Congratulations Hedberg :)

I wish you luck in the next series!

Thank you :)

Good luck in the next draft!


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