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-   -   Tortorella's System Cannot Work with this Roster (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=709321)

NYRangers1388 11-30-2009 08:53 PM

Tortorella's System Cannot Work with this Roster
 
I have a feeling on this season, and it is as follows:

Our team has flaws, as does every team. Our flaws are greater than most in that we lack true secondary scoring and we lack a solid defense.

However, teams can win, or at least be competitive with flaws. We all saw this in the past 3 years, where we at least made the playoffs and got to the 2nd round.

In reality, this year's team is a whole lot like teams in the years past. We really have never had solid defense men, and with guys like Kotalik and Ozolinsh, we had pretty big holes. We have lacked secondary scoring for at least 2 seasons, if not 3. Yet in the past we were able to be competitive. Why?

The difference: the system. I think there are interesting things here. First, let's make some assumptions which seem to be popular.

1. Renney's system may be too defensive minded to really win a Stanley Cup.
2. Torts's systems may have that offensive push to it which can bring home a Cup as in Tampa.

This may be right...however, what is going on is that while Renney's system covered up and blocked our team's holes and flaws, Tortorella's exacerbates the problems.

Renney's defense-first mindset allowed our key guys (think Jagr=Gaborik, Straka/Nylander/Zherdev=Prospal, etc) to score 2 goals and for us to still consistently win hockey games. By being solid on defense and not exposing our goaltender, we were able to capitalize on the advantage that lundqvist gives us. Lundy with the corrent defensive support is a Vezina goaltender. Without that defensive support, it is clear that he can be exploited.

This is what is wrong with Tort's system. It's not that his system is bad; in fact, I think it is great. I love the idea of the offense being hte main focus and of defense joining the rush etc. However, it is a terrible system for this roster. What it does is expose our half of the ice and our goaltender. In giving the opposition time and space on 2 on 1s and from the slot, Lundqvist's weaknesses are exploited and we are scored on quite a bit. Suddenly 2 or 3 goals are not enough to win...and unfortunately 2 or 3 goals is all that our team is capable of producing.

To offer an analogy: It is almost like we have a Ferrari (Tort's high paced, fast, powerful offensive strategy) yet we lack the crucial engine parts and the oil which are necessary to keep it running and running smoothly. Without the necessary parts, that Ferrari is just a shell of a car.

Likewise, without the necessary offensive pieces and defensive plugs, Tortorella's Ferrari of a system is doomed to fail. Could Tort's and his offense-first strategy bring NYC a cup? Yes. But can it do that with this current lineup? Absolutely not.

From this, it is clear that something has to change. Either the coaching has to change and Tort's has to understand this and focus on defense more, or the Roster has to be significantly altered.

RangerFan10 11-30-2009 08:55 PM

Honestly, IMO, I think we just need one or two more playmakers. Anisimov will possibly develop in to one of them.

We need another puckmover other than Gaborik too.

Not re-signing Zherdev hurts, even if we just would've given him a 1 or 2 year deal.....

NYR Sting 11-30-2009 08:55 PM

No system can work with this roster. Isn't that obvious yet?

NYRangers1388 11-30-2009 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting36e (Post 22399886)
No system can work with this roster. Isn't that obvious yet?

My point is this: I have a feeling that under Renney with this lineup we could have won at least 4 or 5 games that we have lost, improving us to 17-9-1, a whole lot better than 13-13-1.

Not perfect, but a lot better nonetheles...think of games like vs SJS where we lost 7-3. Or vs ATL where we lost 5-3, or vs the Wild where we lost 3-2, or one of these past Pitts games...

The point is this:

1. Change the coaching strategy
or
2. Change the Roster.

We will not be successful without one or the other being significantly altered in some way. I'd personally rather change the roster, but I'm not so sure how possible that is...

NYRangers84 11-30-2009 09:02 PM

I agree with everything, one of the best posts I've read on HFboards. IMO, we got Tortorella too early..

Crease 11-30-2009 09:08 PM

Was just about to write a thread about this. Mentioned it in the gameday thread. Everything here is on point. Good job.

Gardner McKay 11-30-2009 09:08 PM

Whats easier, re-vamping the team, or the coaching staff?

The actual question is, is the coach the problem or is it the team?

Crease 11-30-2009 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabborik (Post 22400214)
Whats easier, re-vamping the team, or the coaching staff?

The actual question is, is the coach the problem or is it the team?

Easier to change the coach. Better for the future to re-vamp the team.

hlundqvist30* 11-30-2009 09:10 PM

For a team to be successful a GM has to build a team that will succeed under the style of the coach. It's not Torts' fault for the system not working with the roster. It's Sather's fault for not building the team to the system.

OverTheCap 11-30-2009 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting36e (Post 22399886)
No system can work with this roster. Isn't that obvious yet?

:handclap:

I'm not sure why so many people don't realize this.

Apparently Kotalik, Higgins, etc. were supposed to be these amazing players who can score 30 goals and Torts isn't getting the best out of them. :laugh:

gravytrain6t 11-30-2009 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYRangers1388 (Post 22399966)
My point is this: I have a feeling that under Renney with this lineup we could have won at least 4 or 5 games that we have lost, improving us to 17-9-1, a whole lot better than 13-13-1.

Not perfect, but a lot better nonetheles...

Nah, 1-2-2, 2-1-2, an all out trap which is kind of like a 1-4 with your guys pressing the puck carrier (don't really see it anymore), or a 5-0 lol, the inevitable is really happening. No one. Not Jagr, Straka, Gretzky, Lindros, Gaborik,....etc...etc.., can save this team.

Keep Staal, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Callahan, and MDZ on this team. I like Girardi too. A nice solid core there.

Then, contracts have to expire. Unless someone wants Drury or Rozsival. I doubt it. Every G.M. must get the giggles at night when they think of the Redden signing.

Thirdly, it's simple: the team has to build from within the organization. The draft is our best friend. Hope that out of Stepan, Kreider, McDonagh, Grachev..etc...(we all know the names) many of these kids pan out.

You make a Gaborik or Messier signing when your team is already a playoff caliber team.

Isn't this what the Devils do? If they continue doing what they're doing, I can almost guarantee they bring in that extra goal scorer, or defense man, or face off man to make a strong run in the playoffs.

I think Tortorella knows this team is screwed.

Crease 11-30-2009 09:16 PM

Torts defense-first system really stifles the offense.

nyr2k2 11-30-2009 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverTheCap (Post 22400341)
:handclap:

I'm not sure why so many people don't realize this.

Apparently Kotalik, Higgins, etc. were supposed to be these amazing players who can score 30 goals and Torts isn't getting the best out of them. :laugh:

I agree that no system will take this team to the Promised Land, but I certainly think we could make some adjustments to our game plan that would churn out better results. Leetch said it--return to a focus on defensive fundamentals, and winning low scoring games.

NYR Sting 11-30-2009 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr2k2 (Post 22400426)
I agree that no system will take this team to the Promised Land, but I certainly think we could make some adjustments to our game plan that would churn out better results. Leetch said it--return to a focus on defensive fundamentals, and winning low scoring games.

Too bad we already fired the coach that was doing that with the previous version of this horrendous team.

OrbitalDynamics 11-30-2009 09:21 PM

Get Schoenfeld back to working with the D.

gravytrain6t 11-30-2009 09:23 PM

Yea but it doesn't matter. It's still a losing team.

gravytrain6t 11-30-2009 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitalDynamics (Post 22400510)
Get Schoenfeld back to working with the D.

I thought that's what he was supposed to be doing?

nyr2k2 11-30-2009 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting36e (Post 22400472)
Too bad we already fired the coach that was doing that with the previous version of this horrendous team.

That's always an underpinning of my posts, heh. That's why I'm The Renney Apologist™!

Seriously though, we desperately need Tortorella to adjust.

NYRangers84 11-30-2009 09:26 PM

Bring back Renney :cry: this team isn't built for Tortorella hockey

OverTheCap 11-30-2009 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr2k2 (Post 22400426)
I agree that no system will take this team to the Promised Land, but I certainly think we could make some adjustments to our game plan that would churn out better results. Leetch said it--return to a focus on defensive fundamentals, and winning low scoring games.

Oh I agree too, I actually mentioned that Torts has to adjust his system a few days ago.

But I don't know if it's that easy. Each coach has their own system and would prefer to use what they are familiar with. Renney's was obviously defense-oriented and Torts is an uptempo, forechecking game. I don't know if Torts has the expertise in running a defensive scheme so he's going with what he knows.

Sather wanted an uptempo, high offense system, but I wonder if he realized that this system can't be played with just anyone. The cap is clearly a limitation so he can't acquire some players that would be better-suited for Torts' system. When people say that "Torts got the players he wanted," I'm not so sure how true that is.

Inferno 11-30-2009 09:30 PM

tough to win games when your goalie gives up 4 softies in 1 game.

Henrik was awful tonight.

NYRangers1388 11-30-2009 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno272 (Post 22400693)
tough to win games when your goalie gives up 4 softies in 1 game.

Henrik was awful tonight.

This is flawed. My explanation is that he is a Vezina goaltender when he has the support which he requires.

He made some big saves that should have been goals, as well.

I think that Tort's lack of defense has really messed with his confidence, aswell...

nyr2k2 11-30-2009 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverTheCap (Post 22400657)
Oh I agree too, I actually mentioned that Torts has to adjust his system a few days ago.

But I don't know if it's that easy. Each coach has their own system and would prefer to use what they are familiar with. Renney's was obviously defense-oriented and Torts is an uptempo, forechecking game. I don't know if Torts has the expertise in running a defensive scheme so he's going with what he knows.

Sather wanted an uptempo, high offense system, but I wonder if he realized that this system can't be played with just anyone. The cap is clearly a limitation so he can't acquire some players that would be better-suited for Torts' system. When people say that "Torts got the players he wanted," I'm not so sure how true that is.

How hard it is is a good question. However, a lot of people don't realize that Tom Renney didn't come to NY with this defense-first system ingrained in his coaching prospectus--he never coached that way in Juniors, with Team Canada or with Vancouver. He always stressed fundamental hockey, and good backchecking and positioning from his forwards, but the defense-first bit didn't start until he came here. Renney was able to adjust, so I'd assume Torts--he of the Stanley Cup resume--should be able to adjust as well.

I guess the question is will he...

Inferno 11-30-2009 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYRangers1388 (Post 22400823)
This is flawed. My explanation is that he is a Vezina goaltender when he has the support which he requires.

He made some big saves that should have been goals, as well.

I think that Tort's lack of defense has really messed with his confidence, aswell...

he made a couple of good saves, but this isn't Stephen Valiquette in net, Henrik is usually a helluva lot better than this. He needs to make those saves. We should have given up no more than 2 goals tonight.

SomebodySaveKreider 11-30-2009 09:41 PM

I think this is just a poorly constructed team.


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