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-   -   Why don't the wings.... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=709448)

Huddy* 12-01-2009 08:35 AM

Why don't the wings....
 
How come the Red Wings don't deal their prospects for other teams prospects??? The Wings have this amazing knack for finding talent in later rounds, finding players that fit their system, etc. I was just wondering why the Wings (considering how good their scout staff is) don't scout out players in AHL for potential trades. Perfect example is trying to send Cory Emmerton, Andy Delmore, Axelsson, etc to other teams in return for players that the wings can see fitting into their system in the future.

These players are good, but I know the Wings staff could do better to manage our prospects. The Wings have to be on of the short list of teams that actually keep their prospects, bc they have never had to trade them or use them. But its pretty apparent that players like Helm, Abdelkader, Lieno are 3rd 4th line career guys drafted by the Wings to support their system under NO CAP. Abdelkader and Helm both drafted before the salary cup were supposed to be used to support a wings team under no cap. Just like Draper and Maltby did back in their hay day, support the stars.. Now the wings are asking helm and abdelkader to "step up?"" Would Bowman ask Draper and Maltby to score goals back in the day?? UMM no..see where Im going w this..

Plain and simple. Its showing. Its showing bc Babcock rarely uses those guys in pressure situations and it just boggles my mind that the Wings couldnt trade away one of them for a power forward 6'2 6'3 type of guy. Its so freaking obvious that their prospects drafted before the cap was put in place that are now getting their shot, have no shot at staying on this team in the long run.

Any thoughts on this?

fimoknete 12-01-2009 08:49 AM

first, draper and maltby wasn't drafted by the wings. both came in trades when they were in their pro teams, not in the minors.

i dont think the scout staff can repeat the findings in late round every decade. in the 90 we got our star players from the first rounds. lidstrom, yzerman, fedorov etc.

holmstrom was the first late round draft. these kind of players are only successful because they fit into a single role. holmstrom wouldn't be as good as a normal winger. he is slow and has a weak shot. but he is perfect in rebounds a deflections.

and what team whould take prospects who didn't do good in the wings system? if you are not the best one then you have to go to the wings to learn to play role. if you aren't even able to do that you will not have a great pro career.

so no other team will take our useless prospects. and the useful we will need in the future.
thats the reason why we cant trade for good prospects imo.

maybe the wings scout do it again this decade. but i doubt it. we got zetterberg and datsyuk. thats enough for a decade with number 25-30 picks.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 08:54 AM

Exactly my point w Draper and Maltby coming over via trade

Trade Abdelkader and or Helm.

Trade Tatar, Trade Axelsson, hell trade their best d prospect in that brenden smith or Jacob Kindl.

The wings are going to need a hossa type player, not same skill, but comparable type of big, puck moving forward that can lean into guys and hammer the puck down low.

its simple the wings need to rid maltby draper holmer lebda and reduce the contract of nick and go after Kovalchuk

sarcastro 12-01-2009 08:55 AM

The Wings don't have the kinds of prospects that teams give up assets for - big scoring forwards or big combo defensemen.

Other teams may be interested in the Wings' waves of smallish playmaking centers and smurf defensemen, and they'll pluck them off waivers if they get the chance. But they're not going to pay for them.

Heaton 12-01-2009 08:57 AM

I think because the players drafted do fit into the system.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 09:19 AM

and who would those players be?

Heaton 12-01-2009 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22406531)
and who would those players be?

The better question is why don't players like Cory Emmerton and Dick Axelsson fit the Detroit system and philosophy? Helm and Abdelkader were drafted post-lockout.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 09:46 AM

Helm was drafted Pre-Cap

I'm not sayin they dont fit their system, obviously they do bc the wings drafted them. All I am saying is that players such as Helm, Abdelkader, Axellson, and Tatar are all players who were drafted by the wings to be supporting cast for stars. Abedelkader and Helm may never anti up and its best to rid them now, before we are stuck w more Maltbys and Drapers.

Why not TRY and rid these players for one or two better prospects. I'm sure Atlanta wouldn't mind unloading E.Kane for Emmerton and Abdelkader (just a thought) and/or a trade w other teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcastro (Post 22406231)
The Wings don't have the kinds of prospects that teams give up assets for - big scoring forwards or big combo defensemen.

Other teams may be interested in the Wings' waves of smallish playmaking centers and smurf defensemen, and they'll pluck them off waivers if they get the chance. But they're not going to pay for them.

-I DO AGREE W THAT AND SEE WHERE YOUR GOING

@ HEATON--Emmerton and Axellsson if amounted to anything would have been called up this year instead of lol drew miller off of waivers. If they amounted to any potential Babcock wouldnt be switching Maltby w Eaves everyother game. NHL teams are starting to use their prospects on 3rd and 4th lines..Get rid of Maltby Draper and replace them w Tatar and Axellson and now you have a team..but until thats done Tatar, Axellson and Emmerton are a waste of talent in AHL and should either be traded away for better prospects, and or future draft pics

I fear that since Helm and Abdelkader are at best 3&4th line guys, that Tatar, Emmerton, and Axelson will be the same and never amount to anything while the org. relied on them to be something. mine as well try and do something w them b4 its to late

Heaton 12-01-2009 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22406877)
Helm was drafted Pre-Cap

No he wasn't. Helm was drafted in the 5th round during the Sidney Crosby draft. The Wings took Kindl with the 19th pick and Abdelkader in the 2nd round over the infamous Lantendresse.

I just don't understand where you're getting this stuff from, why was Tatar drafted to be a supporting cast? He was outstanding in the WJC and is lighting it up in the AHL.

Actually after reading your idea that ATL would trade Evander Kane (who's already made their team) for Emmerton and Abdelkader I'm not sure that you're really looking at this realistically. The Wings can't trade level 6 prospects for level 10 prospects just because.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 10:07 AM

Brohon,

All I am saying is that w the current players in Helm, Adbelkader why cant the wings trade them . thats all

I really do believe these two players were drafted to support the team and be guys like maltby and draper. Now babcock is using these two in impt situations and its not working. these guys will be career guys at the 3rd 4th line and the wings dont need more drapers and maltbys down the road, those are easy to find.

The kane idea was thrown out there, as an idea of a type of player the wings could nab for players like abby and helm.

Axellson and tatar: give them respect they are playing well right now and give them all the credit. but if they are playing soo good and tearing it up so u say, why havent the wings called on them to come up and score??? hmmmm one would ASSUME they arent ready or thats what the red wings make us believe. If they are "tearing it up" trade them for starters..its that easy

Heaton 12-01-2009 10:08 AM

Okie dokie.

Fugu 12-01-2009 10:09 AM

Maybe no one is very good at projecting prospects? The team dumped Quincey on the waiver line, and LA thought they'd give him a try ONLY because they had injuries on D. They turn that around into a trade that lands them Ryan Smyth, while the Avs are perfectly happy to have Q on the roster. Go figure.

Fugu 12-01-2009 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22407163)
Brohon,

All I am saying is that w the current players in Helm, Adbelkader why cant the wings trade them . thats all

I really do believe these two players were drafted to support the team and be guys like maltby and draper. Now babcock is using these two in impt situations and its not working. these guys will be career guys at the 3rd 4th line and the wings dont need more drapers and maltbys down the road, those are easy to find.

The kane idea was thrown out there, as an idea of a type of player the wings could nab for players like abby and helm.

Axellson and tatar: give them respect they are playing well right now and give them all the credit. but if they are playing soo good and tearing it up so u say, why havent the wings called on them to come up and score??? hmmmm one would ASSUME they arent ready or thats what the red wings make us believe. If they are "tearing it up" trade them for starters..its that easy


You're forgetting that there's a limit on the roster size and a cap. Before you can call guys up willy-nilly, you have to have room. Secondly, the Wings have never just dumped long-serving vets, even when their best years are clearly behind them. I don't mind that so much, but I don't like handing 3 yr contracts to guys who are over 35 under this CBA.

CC Chiefs* 12-01-2009 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 22407195)
Maybe no one is very good at projecting prospects? The team dumped Quincey on the waiver line, and LA thought they'd give him a try ONLY because they had injuries on D. They turn that around into a trade that lands them Ryan Smyth, while the Avs are perfectly happy to have Q on the roster. Go figure.


Quincey = Chelios

Bad choice!

Fugu 12-01-2009 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yooper wings fan (Post 22407221)
Quincey = Chelios

Bad choice!


Don't make my blood boil. I'm already on a tirade about keeping aging vets too long....... or making poor choices when your options are:

Lilja
Lebda
Meech
Quincey
Chelios

...... and only ONE had to be cut.

Heaton 12-01-2009 10:18 AM

We're like 1 thread away from making a universal Quincey thread, it's beyond out of control.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 22407214)
You're forgetting that there's a limit on the roster size and a cap. Before you can call guys up willy-nilly, you have to have room. Secondly, the Wings have never just dumped long-serving vets, even when their best years are clearly behind them. I don't mind that so much, but I don't like handing 3 yr contracts to guys who are over 35 under this CBA.



I know I am forgetting that..

how about waiving Maltby, Miller, & May for Tatar, Axellson, or Emmerton

Maltby= useless
Miller= could be something, highly doubtful
May=Loose Goonie whose body could be used for someone like Tatar

Heaton 12-01-2009 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22407387)
I know I am forgetting that..

how about waiving Maltby, Miller, & May for Tatar, Axellson, or Emmerton

Maltby= useless
Miller= could be something, highly doubtful
May=Loose Goonie whose body could be used for someone like Tatar

Tatar, Axelsson and Emmerton aren't ready for the NHL, that's why they're not up here. I'm not sure why you believe they should be ready right now.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heaton (Post 22407405)
Tatar, Axelsson and Emmerton aren't ready for the NHL, that's why they're not up here. I'm not sure why you believe they should be ready right now.

umm prolly bc they would be better than watching miller, maltby or may

CC Chiefs* 12-01-2009 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22407387)
I know I am forgetting that..

how about waiving Maltby, Miller, & May for Tatar, Axellson, or Emmerton

Maltby= useless
Miller= could be something, highly doubtful
May=Loose Goonie whose body could be used for someone like Tatar

IMO we need to keep a May type player. The last 2 games vs Dallas that idiot Ott has been very quiet unlike last year. Guys like Ott will not act up if there is someone there to make him pay.

Huddy* 12-01-2009 10:28 AM

@ Heaton

as a moderator why are u getting pissed that I am suggesting options for a team thats out of the playoff race right now..for a team u cheer for. how can u cheer for guys like maltby milller or may-- maltby was a hell of player in his prime. reason why miller was waived and mays career is over with.. Wouldnt u want to be able to at least see what one of them could do...the wings wont make the playoffs w this roster..come on man!!

cant u see that maltby miller may helm adbelkader are useless

Franzenstein 12-01-2009 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22407163)
Axellson and tatar: give them respect they are playing well right now and give them all the credit. but if they are playing soo good and tearing it up so u say, why havent the wings called on them to come up and score??? hmmmm one would ASSUME they arent ready or thats what the red wings make us believe. If they are "tearing it up" trade them for starters..its that easy

It sounds like you philosophies differ far from Ken Hollands. Draper/Maltby will never be let go or whatever to make room for Tatar or Axelsson on the 3/4th line. You missed the famous word on this one, overripe. Why don't we get rid of Ericsson? He played only a few NHL games before he was 25. He's been pretty solid lately. Would you like us to trade him for Kieth Ballard? He would knock some sense into Ozzy, thats for sure.

Plus, Tatar and Axelsson(to my knowledge anyway) were pure scores in the leagues they came from. The Wings overripe philosophy's tell you that the coaching staff will sit on these players until they mature into what we call Stanley Cup caliber Red Wings.

I don't know why Abdelkader has to be labeled as a 3/4th liner, nobody knows that, stop it.

Heaton 12-01-2009 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22407464)
@ Heaton

as a moderator why are u getting pissed that I am suggesting options for a team thats out of the playoff race right now..for a team u cheer for. how can u cheer for guys like maltby milller or may-- maltby was a hell of player in his prime. reason why miller was waived and mays career is over with.. Wouldnt u want to be able to at least see what one of them could do...the wings wont make the playoffs w this roster..come on man!!

cant u see that maltby miller may helm adbelkader are useless

Who's getting pissed? We're having a conversation. I don't agree with anything you're saying so I'm posting my opinion. Drew Miller has come in here and played solid defense and chipped in a few goals. He's definitely an NHL player and filling a role this team needs.

I don't see how rushing guys like Tatar and Axelsson into the NHL does a bit of good. It could ruin their careers. Players like Peter Mueller and Kyle Turris were rushed and it may have ruined Mueller and stunted Turris.

Fugu 12-01-2009 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeytown93 (Post 22407464)
@ Heaton

as a moderator why are u getting pissed that I am suggesting options for a team thats out of the playoff race right now..for a team u cheer for. how can u cheer for guys like maltby milller or may-- maltby was a hell of player in his prime. reason why miller was waived and mays career is over with.. Wouldnt u want to be able to at least see what one of them could do...the wings wont make the playoffs w this roster..come on man!!

cant u see that maltby miller may helm adbelkader are useless

He's not getting pissed off as a moderator. When mods get mad, you get private messages. ;)


Point is, mods can still disagree with opinions about hockey. That's all we're discussing here. Heaton gets prickly at times but he does that with the best of us, so don't take it personally.


Regarding your point, it's possible that everyone may recognize there's some problem, but not everyone will agree with the solution you're putting forward. That should okay, right?

Fugu 12-01-2009 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heaton (Post 22407313)
We're like 1 thread away from making a universal Quincey thread, it's beyond out of control.


Please notice that I'm not the one who starts these, but will admit I have trouble resisting the Q brigade. :p:


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