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-   -   Could Hartnell be moved? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=72838)

The Mars Volchenkov 04-21-2004 03:25 PM

Could Hartnell be moved?
 
Hartnell is one of my favorite players and I think he'd be a great addition to the Ottawa Senators. Would something around Martin Havlat interest you guys?

triggrman 04-21-2004 03:28 PM

We to get larger not smaller

PredsFan77* 04-21-2004 03:38 PM

I like it, we really don't have any young gamebreakers minus Shisky, we have another PF player in Hall. But I don't know if he fits in the Preds "system".

hillbilly 04-21-2004 03:46 PM

I really don't want Havlat here, I say no, but its not based on skill level just my dislike for Havlat

WuRtZLeSs 04-21-2004 06:59 PM

It's something that the Preds would seriously have to look at.

Salary could and would be an issue possibly. Havlat would be a game breaker for the Preds, his grit is severely underrated and they are within a year apart age wise. I can only imagine that Havlat would excel in the faster west game as well. Also a plus is that picture floating around with Havlat and Vokoun, I don't really know the nature of their relationship, but if there's a mutual friendship there it can only sweeten the deal. Giving Erat an opportunity to look up to Havlat would be great - they play very similar styles, although Erat's a bit more of a playmaker.

With Hartnell's three concussions already and Hall's solid play, I would pull this deal. I honestly like it, however you have to wonder about the impact it would have on the Preds psychologically - the worry alone may be enough to deter the Preds from pulling the trigger.

Hartnell is 6'2" 208
Havlat is 6'1" 198

Neither has completely rounded out their frame and while they play different styles - the Preds wouldn't be giving up a whole heckuva' lot of size.

darth5 04-21-2004 07:56 PM

My daughter would kill me, but I would do that deal. I have wondered if the Sens would part ways with Havlat-- Spezza needs the ice time, and the holdout there soured mgmt on him, I beleive.
We have several players in Hartnell's mold, but few in Havlat's-- none that I consider NHL ready.

SmokeyClause 04-21-2004 09:44 PM

There are very few players with which I would consider swapping Hartnell. But Havlat is certainly one of them. He's the gamebreaker we don't have. I would consider it if I think Hall is capable of filling the void left by Hartnell AND Segal is on track to be just like both of them. Folks in Milwaukee are quite high on Segal and I do feel like Hall might be Hartnell's equal (atleast in the last 1/4 of the year and PO's). If Ottawa dangled that jig my way, I'd probably bite like hell.

hillbilly 04-21-2004 10:43 PM

I don't want Havlat here, don't get me wrong I'd still cheer for him while he was here, but the guy needs a good arse kicken

DontCallPlayersStuds 04-21-2004 11:22 PM

i wouldn't do it. hartnell's only check mark is some injuries...but give him back half the games he missed this year and he would have been our leading scorer. i still think hartnell is the next shane doan, and i'd hate to lose that.

hillbilly 04-21-2004 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomorekids
i wouldn't do it. hartnell's only check mark is some injuries...but give him back half the games he missed this year and he would have been our leading scorer. i still think hartnell is the next shane doan, and i'd hate to lose that.


You shall get an AMEN from the congregation :yo:

King of Stankonia 04-21-2004 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomorekids
i wouldn't do it. hartnell's only check mark is some injuries...but give him back half the games he missed this year and he would have been our leading scorer. i still think hartnell is the next shane doan, and i'd hate to lose that.

Hartnell just turned 22, and it generally takes a little longer for power forwards to develop than speed demons.

While I think it's a little unfair to heap that comparison on Hartnell, Doan has about 15 pounds on Hartnell and his skating is superior to Hartnell's but that's really all (other than the 5 1/2 years). I think that there are a lot of teams that would kill for Scott Hartnell, because even if he doesn't pan out as a scoring power forward, I get the feeling that he would literally go to war in the name of his team.

DontCallPlayersStuds 04-21-2004 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King of Stankonia
Hartnell just turned 22, and it generally takes a little longer for power forwards to develop than speed demons.

While I think it's a little unfair to heap that comparison on Hartnell, Doan has about 15 pounds on Hartnell and his skating is superior to Hartnell's but that's really all (other than the 5 1/2 years). I think that there are a lot of teams that would kill for Scott Hartnell, because even if he doesn't pan out as a scoring power forward, I get the feeling that he would literally go to war in the name of his team.


well, i know what you're saying...but it's my belief that scott is only going to get bigger and stronger. when he's determined...NO ONE can stop him coming out of the corner. bear in mind that he scored 18 goals...while missing a third of the season. i think if he had played all 82 games..he could easily have had 25-26 goals. hartnell's scoring ability is underrated...AND he does go to war for the team.

hillbilly 04-22-2004 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomorekids
well, i know what you're saying...but it's my belief that scott is only going to get bigger and stronger. when he's determined...NO ONE can stop him coming out of the corner. bear in mind that he scored 18 goals...while missing a third of the season. i think if he had played all 82 games..he could easily have had 25-26 goals. hartnell's scoring ability is underrated...AND he does go to war for the team.

I think having Scott Walker on are team has had a huge influence on Hartnells attitude and playing style, but I could be wrong

bleedgreen 04-22-2004 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King of Stankonia
While I think it's a little unfair to heap that comparison on Hartnell, Doan has about 15 pounds on Hartnell and his skating is superior to Hartnell's but that's really all (other than the 5 1/2 years). I think that there are a lot of teams that would kill for Scott Hartnell, because even if he doesn't pan out as a scoring power forward, I get the feeling that he would literally go to war in the name of his team.

when doan was 22, he was slower AND skinnier(if that makes sense). its a pretty good comparison - hartnell will put on the muscle in time and unless injuries hamper him he'll probably work a lot on the skating. hartnell is far more noticeable shift to shift than doan was at that age - i think he'll be better than doan. doan wasnt making half the impact hartnell does at 22, he took a long time.

Enoch 04-23-2004 12:36 PM

Havlat is the antithesis to what we have been trying to draft for years. Hartnell is the perfect example of what we want to draft in each and every draft. Considering they likely have similar value....We will keep Hartnell. He fits the system, and I don't see him holding out over paltry sums of money in the near future *knock on wood*. To top that off, he really is a leader on the ice, and us fans here in Nashville love him.

crossxcheck 04-23-2004 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch
Havlat is the antithesis to what we have been trying to draft for years. Hartnell is the perfect example of what we want to draft in each and every draft. Considering they likely have similar value....We will keep Hartnell. He fits the system, and I don't see him holding out over paltry sums of money in the near future *knock on wood*. To top that off, he really is a leader on the ice, and us fans here in Nashville love him.

Amen. he's a keeper and is going to round out to a nice power forward.

SmokeyClause 04-23-2004 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch
Havlat is the antithesis to what we have been trying to draft for years. Hartnell is the perfect example of what we want to draft in each and every draft. Considering they likely have similar value....We will keep Hartnell. He fits the system, and I don't see him holding out over paltry sums of money in the near future *knock on wood*. To top that off, he really is a leader on the ice, and us fans here in Nashville love him.

I disagree. I think Shishkanov is very similar to Havlat in that he's a speedy scorer with a somewhat bad disposition. Shish can have mean streaks as well as Havlat. I think Glazachev is fairly similar as well. Havlat may not be viewed as a team player but neither were Shish or Glaz.

But your point stands.

darth5 04-23-2004 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch
Havlat is the antithesis to what we have been trying to draft for years. Hartnell is the perfect example of what we want to draft in each and every draft. Considering they likely have similar value....We will keep Hartnell. He fits the system, and I don't see him holding out over paltry sums of money in the near future *knock on wood*. To top that off, he really is a leader on the ice, and us fans here in Nashville love him.

But I think your counterpoint is a great argument FOR making this trade. Look at the great leadership/gritty/power forward types already in the system: Hall, Upshall, Segal (I think), Hamhuis, with Walker to set the example for them.
We really only have Shish and Glazachev in the speedy/skilled/mean streak mold, plus Havlat is a proven 30 goal+ scorer and great on the power play. He makes the team better immediately, and Ottawa gets a young power forward leader, too. I see it as a win-win, not that I think it is very likely to actually happen-- but conceptually, I think it makes a lot of sense...

dulzhok 04-24-2004 08:26 PM

I have proposed this idea before. Ottawa is really strachting their head right now. The answer to their post-season woes is likely their lack of grit/heart. They will be looking for grit, and they have huge surplus of scoring RWers: Hossa, Alfredsson, Bondra, Havlat.

Now, I am a big fan of Hartnell. Hartnell and Erat are the two Predator forwards that I hold in highest regard. BUT, I would absolutely love the opportunity to get Havlat in a Predators jersey. I would be absolutely giddy over it. I think he's one of the top 5 young upcoming snipers in the league today. The guy was a 30 goal scoring this year playing in a secondary role and missing 15 games. He could be a 40 goal scorer for years to come.

I think this trade would work for both teams. Ottawa is stacked with young/skilled players, but they are missing a true powerfoward. Enter Hartnell: a young powerfoward with fine offensive skills. Showed a lot of post-season promise this year as well.

As for us, we get the young dynamic scorer that we sorely lack. I really get giddy over the thought of paring Erat and Havlat together. They would be awesome together.

Like somebody said early, Havlat is one of the few players I would trade Hartnell for. DO IT!

Enoch 04-24-2004 10:24 PM

I don't like Havlat, and personally, I don't want him on our team. All we need is a guy that starts ****, plays dirty, and refuses to back up his play for things to go askew for the Preds. We are good b/c we work hard, finish our checks, and ultimately play a clean game. Almost everyone will stick up for a teammate, but I do not think Havlat will do that. Instead, He expects others to do the dirty work for him. Also, I think his stance on hockey is clear. Its all about the money. He held out for more money, and essentailly got the same deal that was offered to him in the off-season. First of all, we do not have the money to pay for a guy that is going to be taking us to arbitration as soon as he can, nor do we need his distractions, and selfish play. Finally, we are a small team. Losing Hartnell is like asking teams to come pound us even more. There is a big reason why the Sullivan line was unsuccessful in the playoffs, while the Hall/Hartnell line was very successful.......skilled powerforwards that can get to the net.

WuRtZLeSs 04-25-2004 12:35 AM

Starts ****, plays dirty and refuses to back up his play - you basically describe what many describe Tootoo as.. but we know better, right? When Havlat is at his best, he's hated.. and when he's at his best he's also potting 30+ goals. Havlat works hard - he missed a good 15 or so games and went without a camp, yet was one of Ottawa's best forwards. Havlat plays gritty, and maybe he does cross the line occasionally, but to be honest with you - I can almost guarantee his no-holds barred attitude rallied his teammates as opposed to becoming a distraction and working against the team. To say Havlat doesn't stick up for his teammates is extremely unfair, and after all - that's the reason he gets involved in most of his controversial penalties to begin with, going to war for his team. Havlat's an extremely gritty player, love him or hate him everyone can admit that, and not every gritty player can pot 30+ goals.

It's extremely difficult to say he's all about the money when he's paid around the same amount of cash as Hartnell ($1.5 as opposed to $1.1825mill), and had to hold out just to get around the same pay. Is it not safe to assume Hartnell would be just as miffed if he wasn't paid what he was worth? Everyone also knows the same agent who was influential in his[Havlat's] holdout was influential in Gaborik's holdout, the agent is just as much a problem .. but to be honest, today the agent and the player are one in the same, but it's extremely hard to justify Havlat's love of the game on money when his agent is so obviously self-motivated.

I think Havlat is gritty enough to replace Hartnell without all that much of a drastic team effect, and overall I think in order for him to garner this much disdain, he must be doing his job well. Obviously the trade is all just hypothetical though, but realistically it gives the Predators a player unique enough to make trading Hartnell worth while.

hillbilly 04-25-2004 01:09 AM

Tootoo 16 fighting majors
Havlat 0 fighting majors

Havlat is one of the dirtiest players in the league and I don't want him in nashville

Enoch 04-25-2004 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WuRtZLeSs
Starts ****, plays dirty and refuses to back up his play - you basically describe what many describe Tootoo as.. but we know better, right? When Havlat is at his best, he's hated.. and when he's at his best he's also potting 30+ goals. Havlat works hard - he missed a good 15 or so games and went without a camp, yet was one of Ottawa's best forwards. Havlat plays gritty, and maybe he does cross the line occasionally, but to be honest with you - I can almost guarantee his no-holds barred attitude rallied his teammates as opposed to becoming a distraction and working against the team. To say Havlat doesn't stick up for his teammates is extremely unfair, and after all - that's the reason he gets involved in most of his controversial penalties to begin with, going to war for his team. Havlat's an extremely gritty player, love him or hate him everyone can admit that, and not every gritty player can pot 30+ goals.

It's extremely difficult to say he's all about the money when he's paid around the same amount of cash as Hartnell ($1.5 as opposed to $1.1825mill), and had to hold out just to get around the same pay. Is it not safe to assume Hartnell would be just as miffed if he wasn't paid what he was worth? Everyone also knows the same agent who was influential in his[Havlat's] holdout was influential in Gaborik's holdout, the agent is just as much a problem .. but to be honest, today the agent and the player are one in the same, but it's extremely hard to justify Havlat's love of the game on money when his agent is so obviously self-motivated.

I think Havlat is gritty enough to replace Hartnell without all that much of a drastic team effect, and overall I think in order for him to garner this much disdain, he must be doing his job well. Obviously the trade is all just hypothetical though, but realistically it gives the Predators a player unique enough to make trading Hartnell worth while.

Incorrect in many ways. First off, Havlat is recieveing a 1.5 million dollar base salary, with extensive bonuses. You partially proved my point here. Havlat was offered virtually the same deal, with lesser bonuses, and he refused to sign. He held out for 15 games, and after the ultimatum was given by Muckler.......things started to roll. The kid wasn't in it for the team, he was in it for the money, why else would he sit out for almost 20% of the season......to sign a deal for more bonuses??? On one occasion I watched him score a meaningless goal in a game where the Sens were going to win, no question asked.....yet he went insane, so much so, that even the annoucers were saying "He must be excited about that bonus money". I'm not sure about you, but that is alarming. Just think what a 30+ goal scorer would do to us...I could almost guarantee a hold out, and you can bet that as soon as aribtration comes around, he will be hammering us. Imagine paying Demitra like money to this kid in less than 3 years. Its simply asinine to assume we would pay him that.

About his sticking up for his teammates??? He doesn't. He practically single-handedly started the brawl with Philly when he cross checked Recchi in the face *purposefully I might add*. Yet did he get in a fight that game?!?! Absolutely not. He hid on his bench. What a wuss, and after watching this kid play countless times.....I have to say their is a huge difference between dirty play and gritty play. This kid is dirty. He breaks the rules...using his stick as a weapon.....its a shame that he wasn't handed a major suspension for some of his antics this year. Sure he may be talented, but you have to ask yourself.....is this the kind of guy that we want as the face of this franchise? that we will invest so much money into? No a million times over. He is talented, yes.......and he will likely be a ppg player for his career, but that doesn't make him a winner, leader, or a team player........

The Tootoo comparison is off, IMO. Fans hate Tootoo b/c he cleans people out with legal hits. Fans hate Havlat because he will try to chop a guy in the face with his stick. Big difference. Tootoo will also drop the gloves, Havlat will not, even when his actions demand he take responsibilty.

All this being said, Havlat likely has the same value/if not more than Hartnell. I'm not surprised this trade is intriguing to some, but for me......I cannot accept Havlat as a player and it would be very hard for me to root for him. I would much rather have Hartnell, who I believe would be better for this team anyways.

darth5 04-25-2004 11:39 AM

As a fan of Ottawa as my second team, I disagree with your characterization of him. Sure, it's easy to pick out individual plays where he crossed the line, like you could with lots of players. Don't extend that to his play as a whole. He is a serious offensive presence and legitimate 30+ goal guy. I think he is a very intense player and really leaves it all on the ice. I guess we are just going to disagree on this.

Enoch 04-25-2004 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnrocketman
As a fan of Ottawa as my second team, I disagree with your characterization of him. Sure, it's easy to pick out individual plays where he crossed the line, like you could with lots of players. Don't extend that to his play as a whole. He is a serious offensive presence and legitimate 30+ goal guy. I think he is a very intense player and really leaves it all on the ice. I guess we are just going to disagree on this.

I'm not knocking his offensive talent becuase he does excel on the ice in that department. As I said, I truly believe he will be a ppg player in this league for his career, which says a lot in this defenisive age. However, I am maligining the rest of his play/attitude.


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