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-   -   For the "blow it up now" folks -- Lundqvist (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=728866)

NCRanger 01-23-2010 09:51 PM

For the "blow it up now" folks -- Lundqvist
 
For the record -- I do not, repeat, do not advocate, support, or wish anything like this to happen.

I am posting this to start a debate on this.

I don't think the "blow it up now" folks have a clue what it would mean to totally "blow it up". Finding new homes for Redden and Drury is going to be almost impossible without getting rid of the few assets this team has along with those anchors. I also don't think they have a clue as to what it would mean for the next few seasons.

So, those who want a total overhaul, and are willing to sacrifice the next 3 to 4 seasons, would you be willing to trade Hank, if it meant "prospects", or someone of value?

arunnair87 01-23-2010 09:56 PM

No...

New York RKY 01-23-2010 09:59 PM

I think by "blow up" the team they mean getting rid of only the unwanted contracts (the reddens, rosivals, kotaliks, brashears, higgins, drurys, etc). There is no way anyone is claiming we get rid of our "core" players and no way in hell do we get rid of Lundqvist becuase I'm pretty sure Chad Johnson isn't going to be a top 5 goalie in the league lol.

I'm all for getting rid of these contracts that eat our cap space and that really give no effort but only for the right prices.

Bleed Ranger Blue 01-23-2010 10:05 PM

The "blow it up" folks are really just people that let their emotions get the best of them. When you analyze the situation a bit, you see that its pretty much impossible.

As for trading Lundqvist, that would be a debacle of epic proportions.

NHLhockey1234 01-23-2010 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRanger (Post 23378294)
For the record -- I do not, repeat, do not advocate, support, or wish anything like this to happen.

I am posting this to start a debate on this.

I don't think the "blow it up now" folks have a clue what it would mean to totally "blow it up". Finding new homes for Redden and Drury is going to be almost impossible without getting rid of the few assets this team has along with those anchors. I also don't think they have a clue as to what it would mean for the next few seasons.

So, those who want a total overhaul, and are willing to sacrifice the next 3 to 4 seasons, would you be willing to trade Hank, if it meant "prospects", or someone of value?

If we traded Lundqvist and got Alexander Ovechkin and Alexander Semin, or Crosby and Malkin, or Toews and Kane, or the Sedin Twins maybe. I would never trade Lundqvists for picks or prospects, I would want to get two star players in that deal.

Hey don't you notice this? These hot teams have two major superstars on them. Why don't we get that too as well? O but we paid a little bit too much to our defense.

I would trade Lundqvist if we had a solid backup that was putting up similar numbers as him, but we do not.

I honestly don't know how any GM can get themselves out of a situation that Sather created, especially in a salary capped league. The yankees were able to finagle and take the hit of Carl Pavano. But we can't take those humongous hits. We will have to stomach this for 5-6 years and pray that our farm team and our draft picks produces the likes of Sidney Crosby, AO, and others. There's no way around this and we have to stomach this fact rather than come up with all these hypotheticals that won't work, especially if Sather is here, no GM in the league is privy to his charm now to take on those monstrosities of contracts.

All that I hope for is that a future GM of our team is smart and writes up contracts that provide a decent salary to players, but they should be with performance bonuses, that's what should happen.

Inferno 01-23-2010 10:18 PM

the "real way" to blow it up, would be to sign Ilya Kovalchuk in the offseason, and find a way to offload Redden, Drury, Rozsival, Kotalik, and Brashear...and possibly Prospal, Christensen and Higgins depending on how you want to play it.

Then, you go into next season with something like...

Prospal Dubinsky Gaborik
Kovalchuk Anisimov Callahan
Grachev Stepan Lisin
Byer Boyle Avery

Staal MDZ
Gilroy Sanguinetti/Sauer/McDonagh
Sanguinetti/Sauer/McDonagh Girardi


and you be patient.

you understand that the team as I posted will NOT compete for at least 1 year, more than likely 2 years. But you don't panic, you dont make any trades, you dont sign any free agents, you let the kids learn from the superstars, and let them make their mistakes. You keep letting Gordie Clark work his magic, and understand that in 2 years the Rangers will likely be where they are now, barely competing for a playoff spot, and in 3 years they should be one of the better teams in the league.

Kids take time to develop, even now we have an incredibly young roster...theres not all that much to blow up. We arent the Rangers of old with no prospects and a TON of underachieving vets. We are quite the opposite, with a tone of prospects, and a few underachieving vets.

Inferno 01-23-2010 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jediprakNYR (Post 23378615)
If we traded Lundqvist and got Alexander Ovechkin and Alexander Semin, or Crosby and Malkin, or Toews and Kane, or the Sedin Twins maybe. I would never trade Lundqvists for picks or prospects, I would want to get two star players in that deal.

Hey don't you notice this? These hot teams have two major superstars on them. Why don't we get that too as well? O but we paid a little bit too much to our defense.

I would trade Lundqvist if we had a solid backup that was putting up similar numbers as him, but we do not.

I honestly don't know how any GM can get themselves out of a situation that Sather created, especially in a salary capped league. The yankees were able to finagle and take the hit of Carl Pavano. But we can't take those humongous hits. We will have to stomach this for 5-6 years and pray that our farm team and our draft picks produces the likes of Sidney Crosby, AO, and others. There's no way around this and we have to stomach this fact rather than come up with all these hypotheticals that won't work, especially if Sather is here, no GM in the league is privy to his charm now to take on those monstrosities of contracts.

All that I hope for is that a future GM of our team is smart and writes up contracts that provide a decent salary to players, but they should be with performance bonuses, that's what should happen.

the elite teams tend to have 3 superstars on their team. Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin and MAF who definitely moved himself into that category the previous 2 years.
Heatley Thornton Marleau
AO, Semin, Backstrom, Green
Parise, Brodeur, Elias
etc

Rangers need 1 more player, and they need to be patient as their kids develop.

Rangerfans 01-23-2010 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno272 (Post 23378886)
the "real way" to blow it up, would be to sign Ilya Kovalchuk in the offseason, and find a way to offload Redden, Drury, Rozsival, Kotalik, and Brashear...and possibly Prospal, Christensen and Higgins depending on how you want to play it.

Then, you go into next season with something like...

Prospal Dubinsky Gaborik
Kovalchuk Anisimov Callahan
Grachev Stepan Lisin
Byer Boyle Avery

Staal MDZ
Gilroy Sanguinetti/Sauer/McDonagh
Sanguinetti/Sauer/McDonagh Girardi


and you be patient.

I agree. Especially with the patient part. Unfortunately, this is New York and the fans (just look at these boards! Ranger fans are one of the most bipolar fans ever), the media, and management will never have the patience for patience.

I look at the Islanders, I look at the Devils, etc. they're teams. They're cohesive, passionate, players who are united. I then look at the Rangers who are a bunch of individuals who don't give a damn about the jersey and only care for themselves.

It's sickening.

Hockey Team 01-23-2010 11:20 PM

If we traded lundqvist for PROSPECTS, im not a rangers fan anymore.

That'd be too much stupidity to associate myself with.

Hockey Team 01-23-2010 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangerfans (Post 23379913)
I agree. Especially with the patient part. Unfortunately, this is New York and the fans (just look at these boards! Ranger fans are one of the most bipolar fans ever), the media, and management will never have the patience for patience.

I look at the Islanders, I look at the Devils, etc. they're teams. They're cohesive, passionate, players who are united. I then look at the Rangers who are a bunch of individuals who don't give a damn about the jersey and only care for themselves.

It's sickening.

See my other post about player tenure..

exactly the problem, we haven't built a TEAM yet, and itll take a few years before it happens, but we ARE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

Swagelin 01-23-2010 11:33 PM

I love how the two games where the rangers scored 14 goals everyone was all excited, claiming the rangers had enough depth to win a cup. We have one bad game and everyone wants to trade away the whole roster. We just have to stay patient and wait. We have two star players, lots of young talent, promising young defenders, and only a couple veteran underachievers. Sather will never trade lundqvist unless malkin/crosby/ao is coming back in return and CJ is developed by then.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ace2008 01-23-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno272 (Post 23378928)
the elite teams tend to have 3 superstars on their team. Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin and MAF who definitely moved himself into that category the previous 2 years.
Heatley Thornton Marleau
AO, Semin, Backstrom, Green
Parise, Brodeur, Elias
etc

Rangers need 1 more player, and they need to be patient as their kids develop.

i AGREE that both have 3 superstars..but don't forget that the key is superstar skaters..not superstar players


NYR have only 1 star skater in Gaborik which is how teams frequently find ways to shut the team down.

Its time to focus on HW(100kg_/222lbs_+) power forwards

like Torres(a 2 time proven 25+goal scorer)
expected cost--1 quality dman..maybe Girardi or 1 good prospect
maybe Stepan(realize that Torres was a top 8 draft pick)

and the emerging checking talent of Evgeny Artukhin.

As for trading for superstars...how about aiming for having 4 Ryan callahan style players in the 20+ goal top 10 NHL hitters category
Avery(he can hit 20 goals)
Dubinsky
Callahan

and maybe Dustin Brown or Cal Clutterbuck(he can definitely hit 20g)

but the cost of Brown or Clutterbuck would be pretty huge.

Maybe swap Prospal+ Gaborik for Dustin Brown *Captain of the Kings and a true heart and soul player and D.Doughty.

Short term thats a terrible move for the NYR and a good one for the kings...but what happens when they need to resign Prospal...easily another 3m +

while the duo of Doughty+DustinBrown are only 6m avg cap hit approximately.

Of course Gaborik has legitimate star power..but so does Doughty.

with Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, Staal, McDonagh, Sauer, and Doughty to backup h.Lundqvist over the next little while a soon to be RFA like Girardi can be showcased for a Draft Day trade. Maybe to the Hawks for a pricey but unique talent like Byfuglien.


Bottom line is that the NYR have the most impressive corps of young Dmen w/ out hype behind them.

Marc Staal might never develop into a #1 C.Pronger or even anything close to that but...his high Hockey IQ coupled w/ his good size should balance out to a good #2 Shutdown top pair guy

and the star power of doughty, Del Zotto, and Sanguinetti would give the opposition a tough time.


Any way that its figured out

the NYR have 3 quality prospects in the system that should have space for them cleared out in Gratchev, pick 1 between Sanguinetti/I.Heikkinen/ and somehow McDonagh/Sauer.


that leaves the team w/

Avery--Dubinsky--Callahan

Lisin---Anisimov--Gaborik

Brashear(he's injured this season and needs to rebuild for nxt yr)

Brashear---Boyle--Parenteau(have been impressed in a Dawes kind of way)

simplify matters


Flip rozival (his value will be there at the deadline since he has only 1 real yr of cap hit to worry about next yr as he could be bought out of his final yr pretty cheaply if he underperforms)

Even if it means packaging him w/ something of value like a Prospal or a Boyle

Explore the possibility of a veteran dman like a Bryan Allen or a someone in the 2-3million range cap wise that can playl 20+minutes per match of punishing physical crease clearing

and finally get what you can for Higgins, Voros, Rismiller(is he still in the AHL?), Redden(or just send him to AHL painful but necessary for the GM's ego)

Crease 01-23-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr1994 (Post 23380435)
I love how the two games where the rangers scored 14 goals everyone was all excited, claiming the rangers had enough depth to win a cup. We have one bad game and everyone wants to trade away the whole roster. We just have to stay patient and wait. We have two star players, lots of young talent, promising young defenders, and only a couple veteran underachievers. Sather will never trade lundqvist unless malkin/crosby/ao is coming back in return and CJ is developed by then.
Posted via Mobile Device

While I agree many of us got ahead ourselves after the two game offensive explosion, this is not just "one bad game". How many times have we been shut out this season? Hell, this month?

There is no doubt that we severely lack top-end talent. As a result, we're forcing solid bottom-6 character guys out of their natural roles and into the top-6, and replacing them with AHL caliber players.

On top of that, no one is overachieving, and half the roster is well under what we expected from them.

This team is a mess, from the owner's box on down.



Blow it up (but keep Gaborik and Lundqvist).

BrooklynRangersFan 01-23-2010 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr1994 (Post 23380435)
I love how the two games where the rangers scored 14 goals everyone was all excited, claiming the rangers had enough depth to win a cup. We have one bad game and everyone wants to trade away the whole roster. We just have to stay patient and wait. We have two star players, lots of young talent, promising young defenders, and only a couple veteran underachievers. Sather will never trade lundqvist unless malkin/crosby/ao is coming back in return and CJ is developed by then.
Posted via Mobile Device

A rational post.

The team is not perfect; it's not a cup winner. It is by no means as bad as the last game against MTL or as good as the games against TB or MTL last week. Apply a logical, patient approach to improving it. If you can trade the guys who clearly aren't part of the long term solution, then trade 'em - I would hope that Higgins, Prospal and maybe Girardi could get you valuable returns at the deadline. But you don't make trades just to make trades - you don't "blow it up" just to blow it up.

Swagelin 01-24-2010 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan (Post 23380859)
A rational post.

The team is not perfect; it's not a cup winner. It is by no means as bad as the last game against MTL or as good as the games against TB or MTL last week. Apply a logical, patient approach to improving it. If you can trade the guys who clearly aren't part of the long term solution, then trade 'em - I would hope that Higgins, Prospal and maybe Girardi could get you valuable returns at the deadline. But you don't make trades just to make trades - you don't "blow it up" just to blow it up.

Good post.
We all know the rangers aren't gonna be contenders this year or probably the next couple years. Sather shouldn't make any of his short term fixes where he trades all the young talent away for an older player that will only hurt the team years down the road.
Posted via Mobile Device

Inferno 01-24-2010 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan (Post 23380859)
A rational post.

The team is not perfect; it's not a cup winner. It is by no means as bad as the last game against MTL or as good as the games against TB or MTL last week. Apply a logical, patient approach to improving it. If you can trade the guys who clearly aren't part of the long term solution, then trade 'em - I would hope that Higgins, Prospal and maybe Girardi could get you valuable returns at the deadline. But you don't make trades just to make trades - you don't "blow it up" just to blow it up.

yep...its tough to blow up a team when most of it is compromised of players you want to keep lol.

i mean, how many people here WANT to dump...
Henrik, Gaborik, Prospal, Callahan, Dubinsky, Avery, Staal, MDZ, Gilroy...Thats basically half your roster...and there are another 4 or 5 players you dont WANT to trade (unless you are going for the knee jerk approach to building a team) but would iff the right deal came along.

OverTheCap 01-24-2010 12:16 AM

Yes, let's trade Lundqvist, the one player who actually "gets it" and is the reason why our team is in the playoff hunt every year :shakehead

HeaveHo94 01-24-2010 12:21 AM

These threads are getting old, after every loss by 3 or more goals the fire sale has to come.

SupersonicMonkey* 01-24-2010 12:54 AM

I want a TEAM built.

Star leaders:
Gaborik+Lundqvist
(Hopefully add Kovalchuk July 1)

Young NHL core:
Dubinsky+Callahan+Staal+Del Zotto+Anisimov+Gilroy

Soon to be added to the core:
Stepan+McDonagh+Kreider
(Wisconsin & WJC connection)

Grachev+Sanguinetti
(Hartford connection)

And Werek



That's how you build a team. You have 2-3 stars (that care) and add quality youth that already know each other, already have chemistry.


I'd look to draft the kid Etem(who will play with Kreider and Bourque at the WJC in Buffalo). And also (despite how people feel about taking goalies early) Campbell (another USA WJC connection) in the second round, have to start developing a solid goaltender sooner or later.

Let them all develop for a few years.

Its not that anyone wants to waste Lundqvist, it just happens to be that Sather chose to rebuild the farm system when Lundqvist was already NHL ready. It takes time for quality young players to emerge.


Kreider. Dubinsky. Gaborik
Kovalchuk. Stepan. Grachev
Werek. Anisimov. Etem
Hagelin/Byers. Boyle. Callahan

Del Zotto. Staal
McDonagh. Sanguinetti
Redden/Sauer Gilroy

Lundqvist
Campbell

...Eventually (3 years).

In 3 years Drury, Kotalik, Rozsival, Brashear contracts will be up. Redden will have 1 left.

Stepan, Kreider, Grachev, Werek, McDonagh, Sanguinetti will all be NHL ready, a few will have already been in the NHL for a year.

And Lundqvist and Gaborik will only be 30 at that time, with plenty of great hockey years left in them. If we get Kovalchuk, he would still be in his late 20's.

It certainly will not waste Lundqvist and Gaborik. They'll just be a few years older, and still be the leaders and faces of the franchise.

Nemchinov13 01-24-2010 01:46 AM

In order to rid ourselves of Redden/Drury/Brashear/Kotalik/Roszival, etc, we would have to include serious assets with any of the above mentioned names. Like Kotalik and Girardi, or Redden and a high (perhaps even a 1st rounder), pick for a... bag of pucks and cap space.

Would that be worth it?

Girardi is an impending Group II and we Staal to extend as well.

Perhaps, we'd even have a cap room to sign Kovalchuk. But he'll probably want an Ovechkin type deal, so we'll have our backs against the cap wall again. Would it worth it? Would Kovalchuk make us a Cup contender? Our defense of DZ, Staal, Gilroy, Roszie and (hopefully) Sangs and... (Ilkanen? Sauer? Potter?) is still soft, no size or talent (outside of Kovy and Gabby) up front...

So, is it worth it to trade assets with ballast to free up cap space? And how to use it?

Inferno 01-24-2010 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 (Post 23382252)
In order to rid ourselves of Redden/Drury/Brashear/Kotalik/Roszival, etc, we would have to include serious assets with any of the above mentioned names. Like Kotalik and Girardi, or Redden and a high (perhaps even a 1st rounder), pick for a... bag of pucks and cap space.

Would that be worth it?

Girardi is an impending Group II and we Staal to extend as well.

Perhaps, we'd even have a cap room to sign Kovalchuk. But he'll probably want an Ovechkin type deal, so we'll have our backs against the cap wall again. Would it worth it? Would Kovalchuk make us a Cup contender? Our defense of DZ, Staal, Gilroy, Roszie and (hopefully) Sangs and... (Ilkanen? Sauer? Potter?) is still soft, no size or talent (outside of Kovy and Gabby) up front...

So, is it worth it to trade assets with ballast to free up cap space? And how to use it?

im not sure i agree with that, I think different players have different degrees of tradeability.

I think Redden, yeah, youre right, which is why just waiving him is the best option.

Drury, if he didnt have a NMC, probably could be dealt fairly easily to a young team, a-la chicago, that could use a veteran leader to lean on come playoff time

Brashear I think actually could be traded, but you wouldnt get anything of use back, or you might have to include like a 7th rounder to take em off your hands. he only has 1 more year left, and still can throw down with anyone, despite what ppl here say (hes not an elite fighter anymore, but he's still capable of going with anyone in the league).

Kotalik has a long track record of being a PP performer, and being a steady 20-20 guy, i think hes definitely a guy whose performance is being hindered by playing in NYC....he would be a change of scenery player, i think youd have to take on a junk contract to trade him, but you might get one thats expiring in a year or expiring this year, which is fine.

Rozsival probably has the most trade value of any of these players...IE you probably should be able to move him, and you might even be able to get something of value back for him.

Nemchinov13 01-24-2010 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno272 (Post 23382401)
im not sure i agree with that, I think different players have different degrees of tradeability.

I think Redden, yeah, youre right, which is why just waiving him is the best option.

Drury, if he didnt have a NMC, probably could be dealt fairly easily to a young team, a-la chicago, that could use a veteran leader to lean on come playoff time

Brashear I think actually could be traded, but you wouldnt get anything of use back, or you might have to include like a 7th rounder to take em off your hands. he only has 1 more year left, and still can throw down with anyone, despite what ppl here say (hes not an elite fighter anymore, but he's still capable of going with anyone in the league).

Kotalik has a long track record of being a PP performer, and being a steady 20-20 guy, i think hes definitely a guy whose performance is being hindered by playing in NYC....he would be a change of scenery player, i think youd have to take on a junk contract to trade him, but you might get one thats expiring in a year or expiring this year, which is fine.

Rozsival probably has the most trade value of any of these players...IE you probably should be able to move him, and you might even be able to get something of value back for him.

From your lips to God's ears. I would absolutely love for that to happen. I do, however, hope that Kotalik could be shipped off for an expiring contract. I want the scenario that you've described earlier - an off season run on Kovulchuk and a team full of OUR kids and those who want to be here (Avery).

And I do dread that we may have to include a high value asset to trade Redden. Waiving him is going to be hanging on our cap room for the next 8 years (I believe he has 4 more years after this season). That's just too long.

RangerFan10 01-24-2010 02:54 AM

buying out Redden, waiting out Drury's Contract to end, trading Roszival and Kotalik for peanuts...not that unrealistic. I'm on board.

Inferno 01-24-2010 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 (Post 23382466)
From your lips to God's ears. I would absolutely love for that to happen. I do, however, hope that Kotalik could be shipped off for an expiring contract. I want the scenario that you've described earlier - an off season run on Kovulchuk and a team full of OUR kids and those who want to be here (Avery).

And I do dread that we may have to include a high value asset to trade Redden. Waiving him is going to be hanging on our cap room for the next 8 years (I believe he has 4 more years after this season). That's just too long.

no, thats if you buy him out.

i dont want to buy him out. i just want to banish him to the minors. if you do that, the cap hit goes off the books.

Boom Boom Geoffrion 01-24-2010 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerFan10 (Post 23382611)
buying out Redden, waiting out Drury's Contract to end, trading Roszival and Kotalik for peanuts...not that unrealistic. I'm on board.

I have absolutely no problems with this scenario. Even if the peanuts are stale.


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