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Dgrohl8 04-22-2004 09:39 AM

Trades?
 
Everyone has said to trade poti and lundmark to move up in draft or get a high level prospect who could be a top 2 line or top 4 defensive pair player, Now does anyone have any opinions on who we can trade for that is a highly touted prospect or a young NHLer who can do some of the things i listed above.

jas 04-22-2004 10:17 AM

Here a couple of teams I could see targetted.
 
Poti and a 2nd round pick to Atlanta for their #1 pick. Atlanta was in the market for a young vet to help them make the playoffs last year. The needs have not changed.

Lundmark and the 26th pick (from Toronto) to a team like Edmonton, Nashville or Minnesota, who can use an NHL ready forward. Other teams that have or might show interest in Lundmark could be Columbus or Phoenix.

klingsor 04-22-2004 10:23 AM

If Holik is serious about not wanting to play for a rebuilding Rangers' team. I'd see if he would he willing to take a cut in salary (say $1-$1.5 million a year), eat about $3 to $4 million a year and see if there are any playoff teams that would give us what we're looking for for Holik at $4.5 million a year.

True Blue 04-22-2004 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klingsor
If Holik is serious about not wanting to play for a rebuilding Rangers' team. I'd see if he would he willing to take a cut in salary (say $1-$1.5 million a year), eat about $3 to $4 million a year and see if there are any playoff teams that would give us what we're looking for for Holik at $4.5 million a year.

I know that I've been harping on it for a while, but it's not the size of the contract per se that makes Holik untradeable. It's the fact that no matter how much $$$ the Rangers are going to swallow, the team that holds the contract is the team that takes a hit cap-wise or luxury tax-wise. While there are no rules for the new CBA as of yet, I'm reasonably confident that hockey is not going to become the first major sport that has teams splitting costs of a luxury tax him from a player. Otherwise, one player would be able to count against a cap for 2 or more team. That does not happen in any other sport and doubt would happen here.

jas,
I wish that I was as confident as you abot Porta's value. To me, it is a pipe dream to think that a 2nd rounder and Porta will land us another 1st rounder. I cannot believe that Poti's putrid play went unnoticed around the league. I would love to unload him (but I am not one of those that says to just trade him for anything, there must be some value involved), but I cannot see Hartley trading for a defenseman that is nothing in the mode of the type of player that he wants. I would really wonder what Porta's trade value is around the league. He is young, big, and has a world of talent. Unfortunately, he is also afraid of contact, utterly negligible in his own end, and seems to always want to pass when a quick wrister would be much more effective.

Dgrohl8 04-22-2004 11:05 AM

Im not talking about draft picks i said HIGH PROSPECTS

jas 04-22-2004 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
jas,
I wish that I was as confident as you abot Porta's value. To me, it is a pipe dream to think that a 2nd rounder and Porta will land us another 1st rounder. I cannot believe that Poti's putrid play went unnoticed around the league. I would love to unload him (but I am not one of those that says to just trade him for anything, there must be some value involved), but I cannot see Hartley trading for a defenseman that is nothing in the mode of the type of player that he wants. I would really wonder what Porta's trade value is around the league. He is young, big, and has a world of talent. Unfortunately, he is also afraid of contact, utterly negligible in his own end, and seems to always want to pass when a quick wrister would be much more effective.

Maybe it's wishful thinking that he gets dealt at the draft, but, with only one year left on his contract, and, with the likes of Tyutin, Rachunek, Pock and whatever the upcoming draft brings us, I think Poti is at worst gone after this year. TB, We see his faults, but, I do believe, in the right situation, Poti could help a young team in need of a puck-moving d-man. Put him with an Andy Sutton, and less of his warts will show.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 04-22-2004 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgrohl8
Im not talking about draft picks i said HIGH PROSPECTS

Your talking then about dealing a Tyutin.

Dgrohl8 04-22-2004 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Your talking then about dealing a Tyutin.


No im talkin about gettin future stars for lundmark and poti and idc what anyone says you can get a return for poti a lot of teams like him and the way he moves the puck

SingnBluesOnBroadway 04-22-2004 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgrohl8
No im talkin about gettin future stars for lundmark and poti and idc what anyone says you can get a return for poti a lot of teams like him and the way he moves the puck


You're not getting future stars for those two. Poti's trade value is low after coming off a bad season and still slated to make 3.5M. Lundmark has demonstrated enough to bring back a future star.

If you want a future you would have to start with Tyutin and then go from there.

Melrose_Jr. 04-22-2004 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgrohl8
No im talkin about gettin future stars for lundmark and poti

At best, either one of these guys moves you up in a non-first round along with an exchange of picks. You're overvaluing them a lot.

Dgrohl8 04-22-2004 12:58 PM

In every post someone always talks about trading the 2 of them and if not gettin higher in the draft get some prospects and i started off by wanting to know of any available ones

JLand 04-22-2004 01:11 PM

Poti's trade value at the moment is VERY low. The Thrashers didn't want him earlier so I doubt they'd want him now either. I'd like to move up and get another top 10 pick, but talks with any team that has a top 10 pick start with Tyutin part of the package, so no thanks. Things could always change, but it's very unlikely we get another top 10 pick without parting with Fedor.

skunk 04-22-2004 01:16 PM

You people know nothing about hockey who say Poti has low trade value.

No. His value is solid despite his last year. If you knew anything about hockey you would realize offensive defenseman are very rare and despite the fact Poti is below average on defense, he's still better then a lot of morons out there in the NHL who are offensive defenseman.

I have said all along that a offer of Poti and Lundmark could get Pyatt at this point. Pyatt will never do anything on Buffalo will all the small Eurodopes they have on that team. He would be much better playing in New York with a Holik or possibly a Lindros if they bring Eric back.

Potted Plant 04-22-2004 01:33 PM

I think people are underestimating Poti's trade value. If they're not underestimating it, I'd rather keep him and try to rehabilitate him.

I imagine that if push came to shove, a team would give up a late first rounder for Poti. He's relatively young, and he's pretty talented. He just got into the thrasher in New York and now his confidence is shot. He's expected to play something besides his own game.

Personally, I think the Rangers fans should take a fair bit of blame in how a player goes South on us so frequently. When a player is in a slump, he is quick to be booed. The booing just compounds the slump and gets into the player's head. How many players has this happened to in the last few years? Keane, Fleury, Kovalev (twice), Poti, Nedved.. any others?

Fleuryfan29 04-22-2004 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgrohl8
Everyone has said to trade poti and lundmark to move up in draft or get a high level prospect who could be a top 2 line or top 4 defensive pair player, Now does anyone have any opinions on who we can trade for that is a highly touted prospect or a young NHLer who can do some of the things i listed above.

None of the teams that are drafting above you could afford the salary of Tom Poti.
They are all salary dumping thats why there in the position there in.

klingsor 04-22-2004 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
Personally, I think the Rangers fans should take a fair bit of blame in how a player goes South on us so frequently. When a player is in a slump, he is quick to be booed. The booing just compounds the slump and gets into the player's head. How many players has this happened to in the last few years? Keane, Fleury, Kovalev (twice), Poti, Nedved.. any others?

:nopity:

You mean like Kamensky and Lefevbre???

C'mon, these guys are professionals and get paid tons of money to AT LEAST show some effort.

"Booing"? It comes with the territory.

True Blue 04-22-2004 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
I think people are underestimating Poti's trade value. If they're not underestimating it, I'd rather keep him and try to rehabilitate him.

I imagine that if push came to shove, a team would give up a late first rounder for Poti. He's relatively young, and he's pretty talented. He just got into the thrasher in New York and now his confidence is shot. He's expected to play something besides his own game.

Personally, I think the Rangers fans should take a fair bit of blame in how a player goes South on us so frequently. When a player is in a slump, he is quick to be booed. The booing just compounds the slump and gets into the player's head. How many players has this happened to in the last few years? Keane, Fleury, Kovalev (twice), Poti, Nedved.. any others?

Oh good God, this AGAIN? Try to rehabilitate him? Just how many years does he get? Porta was run out of Edmonton for the same exact reasons that many Rangers fans are now fed up with his act. Eventually, you got to call a spade a spade. Porta has very good offensive instincts. But he is not smart with what he does with the puck and is so negligent in his own end, that he is a liability. I do not think that asking him to play well positinally and pay attention to the defensive aspects of the game is asking him to play "something besides his own game".
And blaming the fans for Porta's utter failures is like Jackass blaming the sticks, the fans, and everything else but himself for the failures of the past 4 years. You're telling me that Keane, Fleury, Kovalev (twice), Porta, and Nedved ( who DID have good years here) are all the fault of the fans? Glen Sather, is that you?

Leetch 04-22-2004 02:44 PM

We aren't getting another top ten pick. Maybe we can entice one of those teams ahead of us to trade them their pick for OURS and some stuff so we can get Cam Barker. But we are not getting another top ten pick.

Fitzlax99 04-22-2004 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Oh good God, this AGAIN? Try to rehabilitate him? Just how many years does he get? Porta was run out of Edmonton for the same exact reasons that many Rangers fans are now fed up with his act. Eventually, you got to call a spade a spade. Porta has very good offensive instincts. But he is not smart with what he does with the puck and is so negligent in his own end, that he is a liability. I do not think that asking him to play well positinally and pay attention to the defensive aspects of the game is asking him to play "something besides his own game".

You are letting your hatred of Poti get in the way of reason. The reality of the situation is this: Poti is still young (he just turned 26 last month) is more or less a veteran (over 400+ games played) is talented offensively (.42 career PPG), is a complete mess in his own end most of the time (-11 in 3 years as a Ranger) and is about as physical as Nedved.

He has also been playing the last 2 1/2 years on a Rangers team that has been in complete and total disarray. Has there been any discipline instilled? or accountability? Has there been any defensive system? I'm not even entirely sure there has been any coaching at all.

Its not so much "rehabilitating" him, as it is just seeing what he could do on a team that doesnt just send you out on the ice, pat you on the back, and wish you good luck in winning the game.

Now, I'm not advocating this. I think it is probably best for both the Rangers and Poti that they part ways. But I agree with the point of view that if you cannot get anything of value for Poti (which I dont think will be the case) then dont trade him. We will still be in rebuilding mode next year, its not like Poti is going to mess up our run at the cup.

Of course this is all contingent on the Rangers getting a real coach, and icing a real team next year...

Fletch 04-22-2004 03:31 PM

People fail when they come to the Rangers..
 
because the Rangers have horrible coaching, do not acquiring what they need (which is often everything), does not have the right mix of players most of the time, and the losing becomes contagious after a while. Lefebvre could've been a solid contributor had he been a 5/6 defenseman - not slated to be on a top pair with Leetch. Kamensky could've been a good player (had he stayed healthy and had Joe Sakic as his center). Kovalev played well in spurts (thought he didn't do so bad last season while playing out of position and played well when not on Nedved's line). Fleury got it together when he was with York and Lindros. Poti played well for the first third of last season but was incorrectly cast as Leetch's linemate - and Leetch was all over the ice, left to expose Poti (but did well when allowed to roam the ice and was responsible for bringing the puck up). Unfortunately guys like Kovalev and Poti tend to drift and fade when they're not involved; not carrying the puck. And that should be their job.

And of course, the list goes on.

bmoak 04-22-2004 06:32 PM

Before the thread degenerates into a litany of all the lazy underacheivers who've played here in the last seven years...

+I don't see Poti being moved on draft day in a deal for a first rounder. Most teams would want to wait until the new CBA is settled before taking on a salary of Poti's size. Also, there will be a lot of free agent pickings available. I don't think Lundmark has much trade value. (The #26 overall pick, Lundmark, and a 2nd rounder sure aren't going to get Jason Spezza!)

+I don't think we have what it takes to move up from #6 to #1 or #2. Caps and Pens both have prospect depth and extra picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds. They want/need a potential franchise forward and have little incentive to deal.

+At #6, we are guaranteed a shot at Ladd or Schremp, if not both. I'd almost rather wait and see which one falls to us rather than agonizing over whether we made the right choice. I'd love Olesz at #6, but am leery about trading up to take him because of his concussion history.

+I don't think Slats' draft goal is to march back and forth to the podium five times during the second round. IMHO, he'll try to move up from #26 to the teens. I think other teams' GMs are well aware of what we've been saying here (that the talent drops off after the first round) and will be unlikely to trade a top ten pick for a package of 2nd rounders.

+Back to Poti, I don't think he's going to turn into Ed Jovanoski, but this was a bad year even by his standards. His own effort will be the main determinant in seeing how he recovers next year. However, there are two things the team can do to make Poti more effective.

1) DONT partner him with Brian Leetch (or another offensive-minded defenseman).

2) Use coaching and actual practice to improve the efficiency of the Rangers' power play. A more efficient PP means more points for Poti, and makes him more attractive to playoff contending teams needing to improve their PP down the stretch.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 04-22-2004 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
I think people are underestimating Poti's trade value. If they're not underestimating it, I'd rather keep him and try to rehabilitate him.

I imagine that if push came to shove, a team would give up a late first rounder for Poti. He's relatively young, and he's pretty talented. He just got into the thrasher in New York and now his confidence is shot. He's expected to play something besides his own game.

Personally, I think the Rangers fans should take a fair bit of blame in how a player goes South on us so frequently. When a player is in a slump, he is quick to be booed. The booing just compounds the slump and gets into the player's head. How many players has this happened to in the last few years? Keane, Fleury, Kovalev (twice), Poti, Nedved.. any others?

Yikes!

What rehabilitate Poti? He is six years into his career and is an awful defensive player. Kevin Lowe could not get him to play defense, Craig MacTavish couldn't get him to play defense, Glen Sather couldn't get him to play defense, Jim Schoenfeld couldn't get him to play defense, Bryan Trottier couldn't get him to play defense, and Tom Renney couldn't get him to play defense. This is a pattern not an exception. Hell, he was booed out of Edmonton long before he was booed at The Garden.

And he is not being asked to play "out of his game". He is being asked to remember that there are two bluelines (and quite often the other one is behind him). But what exactly is his game? Supposedly he is an offensive defenseman. But offensive defensemen don't finish the season with 24 points and only 14 assists. His numbers dropped by half last season. He had 23 fewer assists than last season. He finished behind Jan Hlavac in scoring for crying out loud! Hell, Hlavac had seven more assists than Poti and Hlavac was a disgrace this season.

So what exactly is his game? He's been a -31 over the last four seasons so we know his awful defensively. Of course that would be a whole lot easier to take if he was producing on the other end and he's just not. And of course there is his price tag. Would you pay him 3.2 or so a year?


Quote:

Personally, I think the Rangers fans should take a fair bit of blame in how a player goes South on us so frequently. When a player is in a slump, he is quick to be booed. The booing just compounds the slump and gets into the player's head. How many players has this happened to in the last few years? Keane, Fleury, Kovalev (twice), Poti, Nedved.. any others?
And how many of those players have we said, "Oh no. I hate that guy lets boo him." To quote Shakespeare, "the play is the thing" And the play has been crap. Nobody wanted to hate Kamensky, Keane, Quintal, Ulanov, and Kovalev. But their play sure made it hard to cheer for them. There were also the deVries', Barnaby's, and Simon's. They weren't booed. Bottom line: you're a professional, to get paid (well) to play a game. Suck it up.

skunk 04-22-2004 07:59 PM

There seems to be a lot of "so called" Ranger fans that take the same approach that idiot fans of other teams take with our players. That would be all our players blow and have no value. All I heard at the deadline is how we wouldn't get crap for any of our players when in reality other the DeVries Sather stole these teams blind for a bunch of guys of which more then half could end up coming back here

Therefore your points about Poti having low trade value are idiotic and show you have little hockey knowledge. If Malakhov got a 2nd rounder and Kozak then Poti will bring back a lot more then that

So many teams are hard up for offensive defenseman and Poti will give you 40 good games and 40 bad games on defense. Most offensive defenseman will give you a lot less then 40 good games on defense. Zidlicky was so horrible on defense they barely played him at even strength at the end of the season.

Boston still needs another defenseman on the point. Rolston stinks and they don't want him back anyway. Buffalo needs another offensive defenseman. They are a transition team. Calgary could use one. Atlanta, Phoenix, Carolina, Dallas and the Kings could all use one.

Most didn't want to give up a prospect but I suspect they would seriously considering trading down in the draft to our Toronto 1st rounder and to get Poti and give up their first round pick.

free0717 04-23-2004 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitzlax99
You are letting your hatred of Poti get in the way of reason. The reality of the situation is this: Poti is still young (he just turned 26 last month) is more or less a veteran (over 400+ games played) is talented offensively (.42 career PPG), is a complete mess in his own end most of the time (-11 in 3 years as a Ranger) and is about as physical as Nedved.

He has also been playing the last 2 1/2 years on a Rangers team that has been in complete and total disarray. Has there been any discipline instilled? or accountability? Has there been any defensive system? I'm not even entirely sure there has been any coaching at all.

Its not so much "rehabilitating" him, as it is just seeing what he could do on a team that doesnt just send you out on the ice, pat you on the back, and wish you good luck in winning the game.

Now, I'm not advocating this. I think it is probably best for both the Rangers and Poti that they part ways. But I agree with the point of view that if you cannot get anything of value for Poti (which I dont think will be the case) then dont trade him. We will still be in rebuilding mode next year, its not like Poti is going to mess up our run at the cup.

Of course this is all contingent on the Rangers getting a real coach, and icing a real team next year...

I think Poti has to live in the weight room and take designer steroids. He definintley
needs more strength(upper body and lower body) to win the physical battles with the leagues power forwards. We also need a coach who will make Tom Poti play with discipline. I doubt either happens. :joker:

dumpsathernow* 04-24-2004 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klingsor
If Holik is serious about not wanting to play for a rebuilding Rangers' team. I'd see if he would he willing to take a cut in salary (say $1-$1.5 million a year), eat about $3 to $4 million a year and see if there are any playoff teams that would give us what we're looking for for Holik at $4.5 million a year.

just curious i been hearing that but where did u exactly read it, is it fact or rumor or what??????


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