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-   -   Kimmo or Rico (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=760031)

chimrichalds18 04-07-2010 09:28 AM

Kimmo or Rico
 
I was just thinking about the similarities between these two players. Rico was our quarterback and key to the blueline. Kimmo now shares that responsibility with Pronger, but he's been rock solid these past few years. Who's your guy? I hate to make it this simplified, but who would you rather have?

Eric Desjardins
GP: 1143
G: 136
A: 439
P: 575
PIM: 757


Kimmo Timonen
GP: 810
G: 96
A: 331
P: 427
PIM: 502

Kimmo got started a little late age-wise. If I had to pick between the two, I'm going with Kimmo...and I loved Eric Desjardins. Wore #37 and everything.

Jester 04-07-2010 09:34 AM

I actually think they're incredibly similar players in substance. Go about things a bit differently, but produce points at about the same rate and play similar defensive styles.

Kaktus* 04-07-2010 09:44 AM

Went with Rico.

MiamiScreamingEagles 04-07-2010 09:54 AM

Whatever the difference, it is by a whisker. Desjardins gets the slight nod especially if we limit it to accomplishments as a Flyer. In 2004, a healthy Desjardins could have been the difference that season to winning a Cup. Tough to determine how much future change that season played into the moves on the blueline -- certainly the Justin Williams for Markov trade -- and to a lesser degree Malakhov, too. The Flyers were racked that season (Seidenberg, Pitkanan, Ragnarsson, Desjardins etc).

Jester 04-07-2010 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles (Post 24982560)
Whatever the difference, it is by a whisker. Desjardins gets the slight nod especially if we limit it to accomplishments as a Flyer. In 2004, a healthy Desjardins could have been the difference that season to winning a Cup. Tough to determine how much future change that season played into the moves on the blueline -- certainly the Justin Williams for Markov trade -- and to a lesser degree Malakhov, too. The Flyers were racked that season (Seidenberg, Pitkanan, Ragnarsson, Desjardins etc).

Yeah, there's no question Desjardins contribution to the Flyers are more significant. Timonen has a slightly higher PPG, and both are on the same level defensively, IMO. Timonen uses his speed more than Rico, but Rico had a better stick.

claude boivin lives 04-07-2010 10:02 AM

I give the nod to Kimmo. For me, the biggest difference is that Rico had issues at times with turning the puck over rather often...something I can't say about Timonen. It's definitely a close call, though...Rico was no slouch.

MiamiScreamingEagles 04-07-2010 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 24982640)
Yeah, there's no question Desjardins contribution to the Flyers are more significant. Timonen has a slightly higher PPG, and both are on the same level defensively, IMO. Timonen uses his speed more than Rico, but Rico had a better stick.

The contributions of added pieces like Markov and Malakhov were key to the 2004 run but as I recall, Clarke dealt Malakhov as a replacement for Therien (separate trade) given the skill level and necessary components. It's all but certain, the Markov trade is not made with a healthy Desjardins. Weinrich factors into the equation.

Do the Flyers win a Cup in 2004 with a healthy Desjardins, Therien, Johnsson, Ragnarsson, Pitkanen, Timander and/or Weinrich (and spare Seidenberg) on the blue line? If the Malakhov trade was unrelated (it was a few weeks later as opposed to the Markov trade which was immediate) to Desjardins, though that is debatable, then the blueline is Desjardins, Malakhov, Johnsson, Ragnarsson, Pitkanen, Timander and/or Weinrich with Seidenberg tossed into the mix. Of course, the injuries that required Kapanen to play the blueline in the POs are significant, too. A dream turned nightmarish.

Beef Invictus 04-07-2010 10:17 AM

i voted desjardins, but only for nostalgia.

infidelappel* 04-07-2010 10:20 AM

I'm going with 'too close to call.' I need to see a couple more years of Kimmo here in Philly, at least, before I can discuss him with Rico.

They're incredibly similar players. If you hold a gun to my head right now and make me choose, I pick Rico because he was with us longer and I got to watch more of him than I have Kimmo. But like I said, I think I'll wait until Kimmo no longer wears our colors (due to either trade or retirement) before I can really make the call.

GKJ 04-07-2010 10:31 AM

Some may be showing their youth here by selling Desjardins a bit short. During his best years in the '90s, he was among the top 10 defensemen in the league, a lot like Mark Howe falling just short of Norris Trophy discussion. Timonen while perhaps as effective for us, hasn't garnered that kind of talk. In 1999 he would have been nominated if the Flyers didn't completely fall apart later in the season.

FlyHigh 04-07-2010 10:55 AM

Kimmo IMO.

While Rico was very good defensively (have we had a better pokechecker over the last 25 years?), Kimmo turns defensive battles along the boards into an art form, he makes so many little plays that you barely notice, but are absolutely key, easily a top-10 guy in the league for my money.

I'd give Rico the slight edge offensively and Kimmo the slight edge defensively and a tiny edge overall to Kimmo just because he never makes mistakes as opposed to Rico who would turn it over every now and again.

Really good question though, could go either way.

HoverCarle* 04-07-2010 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles (Post 24982560)
Whatever the difference, it is by a whisker. Desjardins gets the slight nod especially if we limit it to accomplishments as a Flyer. In 2004, a healthy Desjardins could have been the difference that season to winning a Cup. Tough to determine how much future change that season played into the moves on the blueline -- certainly the Justin Williams for Markov trade -- and to a lesser degree Malakhov, too. The Flyers were racked that season (Seidenberg, Pitkanan, Ragnarsson, Desjardins etc).

2004 is such a let down. We were so injured on D and still went to game 7 vs Tampa (we could have beaten Calgary)

Kapanen played D part of that series didn't he?

Jester 04-07-2010 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 (Post 24983042)
Some may be showing their youth here by selling Desjardins a bit short. During his best years in the '90s, he was among the top 10 defensemen in the league, a lot like Mark Howe falling just short of Norris Trophy discussion. Timonen while perhaps as effective for us, hasn't garnered that kind of talk. In 1999 he would have been nominated if the Flyers didn't completely fall apart later in the season.

Timonen placed 5th in Norris voting the year before he showed up here, and he is routinely discussed in the top 10 for defensemen since he came over here...so not sure where you're getting that opinion from.

FlyHigh 04-07-2010 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hovercraft (Post 24983393)
2004 is such a let down. We were so injured on D and still went to game 7 vs Tampa (we could have beaten Calgary)

Kapanen played D part of that series didn't he?

Did he ever.

I remain convinced that we would have won the Cup if we had stayed healthy. At the end we had Markov, Malakhov, and Johnsson playing 30 minutes per game (and KJ had a broken hand), with 3 or 4 guys injured.

For whatever reasons, the hockey gods just decided that it wouldn't be our year.

MiamiScreamingEagles 04-07-2010 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hovercraft (Post 24983393)
2004 is such a let down. We were so injured on D and still went to game 7 vs Tampa (we could have beaten Calgary)

Kapanen played D part of that series didn't he?

He did. He also played a little D in the 2006 POs in the game Gauthier was tossed.

GKJ 04-07-2010 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 24983455)
Timonen placed 5th in Norris voting the year before he showed up here, and he is routinely discussed in the top 10 for defensemen since he came over here...so not sure where you're getting that opinion from.

I would say he's at least top 15, it seems some people don't give him the same respect Desjardins got.

Jester 04-07-2010 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 (Post 24983852)
I would say he's at least top 15, it seems some people don't give him the same respect Desjardins got.

Rico was playing for a marquee franchise that was at or near the top of the Eastern Conference with the Legion and Doom for a run of years... Timonen has been playing for a team that has gone blood-and-guts down to the wire to make the playoffs.

LEIFey 04-07-2010 11:24 AM

Nostalgia says Desjardins. Big reason I started with hockey was Desjardins and the Legion of Doom.

John Flyers Fan 04-07-2010 01:39 PM

Very, very similar players, that being said, I think Desjardins is the clear choice.

While they may be small edges, I think Desjardins was a little bit better in every aspect of the game, save for two.

Timonen is a more inventive passer in the offensive zone. Desjardins was a much better goal scorer.

One thing that has yet to be talked about is that Desjardins had a much weaker surrounding cast of defenseman to work with.

While not the best Flyers (2nd to Lindros) he was their MVP. Lindros, Brind'amour and Leclair could some miss time, and we weren't destroayed, but when ever Desjardins was out of the line-up the team defense instantly fell apart at the seams.

Desjardins carried our defense corps for a decade. Kim Johnsson is the best defenseman that played with (not same pairing) Desjardins, and at very best he was considered a #2 and that was only during the final season or so. It was primarily a mishmash of Therien, Svoboda, Haller, Dykhuis, McGillis, Richardson, young versions of Niinimaa/Pitkanen, etc.

Timonen has had a better grouping of defenseman to play with.


Right now they are clearly our 2nd and 3rd best defenseman of all-time (until Pronger plays a few more seasons in orange and black).

DickTony 04-07-2010 01:45 PM

I love them both. Rico was one of the players I tried to model my game off of as a kid. Loved the composure the guy played with, he was definitely the quintessential "lead by example" kinda guy. Kimmo is a worth successor

GoneFullHextall 04-07-2010 01:47 PM

I went with Desjardins. Nothing against Timonen at all, but to me Rico's all around game was a tad bit better. It is very very close to call and I almost clicked on too close to call. But part of me will always remember him being one of my favorite defenders to play for the Flyers.

BobbyClarkeFan16 04-07-2010 01:48 PM

I voted Desjardins. He was good for so long. Not only that, but he was consistently the glue that held everything together, especially when you consider some of the defensemen that came through Philadelphia during his tenure.

Plus, Desjardins was one of the smartest defensemen I've ever watched play the game. He was just so good that he always knew where to be all the time and he was a coach on the ice in that he always directed teammates as to where they should be on the ice. That's such a special quality that not many defensemen have that trait.

The other thing that made Desjardins special was that he could play any role assigned to him. If you needed a power play quarterback, he could be it. If you needed a shut down defenseman, he could be it. If you needed someone to rally the troops, he could be it. There was really nothing he couldn't do. He wasn't the most physical defenseman, but he made up for that with superior positioning and superb poke checking and puck handling skills.

Kaktus* 04-07-2010 02:32 PM

What really separated both was playoffs. Rico could bring it in playoffs. Played both ends of the ice imo. A little bitter then Timonen.

RIPRichardsCarter 04-07-2010 02:47 PM

I went Kimmo. Tough call considering I didn't see either much earlier in their careers. I think Kimmo is easily the most underrated player and brings a lot more to the team that cannot be measured by stats.

Kaktus* 04-07-2010 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quacker912 (Post 24987993)
I went Kimmo. Tough call considering I didn't see either much earlier in their careers. I think Kimmo is easily the most underrated player and brings a lot more to the team that cannot be measured by stats.

See what GKJ said...


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