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highstickingyerface 05-05-2004 10:47 AM

Ron Francis
 
How come nobody is mentioning the disservice done to this guy by Pat Quinn last night? One of the all time scoring leaders and classiest players to play the game and he's a healthy scratch in a pivotal playoff contest??? The guy basically did the Leafs a favor and waived his no trade to come help them try and win a cup for the laughable nation and he is the scapegoat after a 7-2 pounding where the Leafs were outclassed and outmanned in every way possible...... sure the guy isn't a great player anymore... not really even a good one but he deserved to dress for his final game (likely) in the NHL if even just to play powerplays and a few minutes... you can't tell me he was worse than Quinn's pet project Antropov was this playoff?

And while we're at it.. why bring Calle out of retirment if he was going to become your 9th dman on the depth charts? Time for Pat to go.

Porn* 05-05-2004 10:53 AM

first question is who are you to question quinns coaching??? What he did, he did bottom line with the hopes of winning. He did was he thought was right... if no one trusted him he'd be out of a job a long time ago. He knows what he's doing and probably wanted francis to get his feet rested for a hopeful game 7. Calle was a great signing if it would have worked out, but he seemed out of place and was clearly not in game shape. IT was a great signing cause they gave up nothing to get him...

LucaBrasi 05-05-2004 11:13 AM

Three things ...

(1) is it any less fair to the guys that worked their butts off all season (Fitzgerald, Reichel, etc.) to be benched in favor of Francis, when they aren't playing poorly?

(2) should Francis have been a healthy scratch sooner? He was brought in for depth, and depth players are never gauranteed a spot .. as soon as everyone is healthy does he still have a place in the line-up?

(3) if Quinn has an attitude that 'this will be our last game of the season and therefore I should play Francis to be nice to him', hasn't he already admitted defeat? You can't blame any of the TML org because as far as they were concerned, before the game started their season wasn't about to end.

Dr Love 05-05-2004 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
How come nobody is mentioning the disservice done to this guy by Pat Quinn last night?

Because Francis was pretty invisible against the Flyers, and Quinn wanted to put the most effective team out there possible. Quinn felt that putting Francis out there wasn't going to accomplish that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
sure the guy isn't a great player anymore... not really even a good one but he deserved to dress for his final game (likely) in the NHL if even just to play powerplays and a few minutes

You just said yourself that Francis isn't even good anymore. So what you're talking about is a token move. A token move is one that waives the white flag, and token moves aren't for Game 6 in a 3-2 series. You can't have it both ways--either he plays out of respect, in which case you're sending a message that you have all but given up, or he doesn't play because you try to ice the best team you can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
And while we're at it.. why bring Calle out of retirment if he was going to become your 9th dman on the depth charts? Time for Pat to go.

Because Quinn isn't the GM anymore, so you can't blame him for bringing in Johansson.

GKJ 05-05-2004 11:27 AM

Calle Johansson's play merited the 9th d-man spot.


Although that wasn't unexpected because he didn't play all year. I personally think it told Karel Pilar "you suck". But he played anyways in Game 6 and we never saw Johansson.

HuskyFlames 05-05-2004 11:31 AM

Was a STUPID move to scatch Francis from the lineup. The guy is a game breaker. He isn't a liability on the ice and can eat up tons of ice time too. To play Rechiel (sp?) instead of Francis is a JOKE. Recheil is as SOFT as they come, something you do NOT want against a hard team like Philly. BAD BAD coaching!

Volcanologist 05-05-2004 11:40 AM

FRANCIS WAS NOT A HEALTHY SCRATCH.

Quinn mentioned he was in fact hurt.

Coburnfan05 05-05-2004 12:02 PM

I wouldn't care if it was Gretzky himself, if the player (Francis) is not performing, well then he sits.

highstickingyerface 05-05-2004 01:14 PM

First of all I'm just bringing something worthwhile to discuss no need to get all uppity and say who am I to question Quinn's coaching

You suggest he was a scratch to rest up for a game 7.. that's ridiculous.. you have to win game 6 before you can even think of game 7 and if you put a lineup in with your backs against the wall and they come thru you don't take someone from that lineup to put Francis back in for game 7.

Francis isn't a great player anymore but there are plenty of guys who fit that crieteria in Toronto and they still played....... Nik Antropov was a complete liability every shift he was on the ice yet he never missed a shift.... Ron Francis stood a greater chance of making an impact at this point in time than Antropov did.

Wade Belak would have been a perfect choice to sit if you didn't want to bench your pet project Antropov.... just because he played one solid game doesn't excuse him from being among the worst regular NHL roster players of the past 5 years.

Anyways that's just my point of view..... you don't sit guys like Francis.... it's a complete lack of respect.. you can cut his minutes... but you don't bench him outright.

HuskyFlames 05-05-2004 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GagsIsDaMan
I wouldn't care if it was Gretzky himself, if the player (Francis) is not performing, well then he sits.

He had 4 assists in 12 games playing a limited role. How is that not performing considering he was getting basically 3rd line time and responsibility.

ds155 05-05-2004 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Was a STUPID move to scatch Francis from the lineup. The guy is a game breaker. He isn't a liability on the ice and can eat up tons of ice time too. To play Rechiel (sp?) instead of Francis is a JOKE. Recheil is as SOFT as they come, something you do NOT want against a hard team like Philly. BAD BAD coaching!

Said like a person who didn't watch Francis play at all for the Leafs. Francis was during the regular season very good on faceoffs but was horrible in the playoffs, he is much softer then Reichel, Reichel was finishing his checks even if they weren't punishing he still made contact with the body, Francis probably finished 1 or 2 checks a game, Francis was a good player a few years ago, and a great player many many years ago, Quinn should've scratched him sooner.
Nik Antropov played poorly but I still think he contributed more the Francis, he played Primeau physical, Francis couldn't handle anyone physically, Belak with his limited ice played his role to a tee, he wasn't a liability when on the ice. Francis was very slow and looked to me out of place when out there.
So please when responding make sure you watch the game, that way it makes your point valid.

Dr Love 05-05-2004 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepNCheese
FRANCIS WAS NOT A HEALTHY SCRATCH.

Quinn mentioned he was in fact hurt.

He was listed as a healthy scratch, that is why people are, rightfully and understandibly, considering him a healthy scratch. Quinn could be telling the truth, or he could be making an excuse to dodge a bullett. Only he and Francis know, for now all we have to go on is him being listed as a healthy scratch, and then later being told he was hurt (although this is the first I've heard of it).

Vagrant 05-05-2004 01:24 PM

I wonder how Francis feels about waiving his NTC to compete for a cup then not being allowed to play in the most important game of the playoffs for his team. It's a strange irony involved. Even in his last few games, he was disrespected. While Mark Messier plays a meaningless final game of the season and gets a standing ovation, Francis gets told by Pat Quinn that he's not good enough and takes a seat in the press box. It just adds to Francis's legacy as one of the most underappreciated and disrespected players of all-time, considering his contribution to the game.

Now let's let the Carolina Hurricanes sign him in the offseason and give him the symbolic retirement party that he deserves. Just think about how up in arms everyone would be if Mark Messier did get traded to the Red Wings and was benched for Game 6 against Calgary. There would be a virtual riot, i'm sure.

Oh well. As long as Francis doesn't regret it, then we're fine. He hadn't played a meaningful game in two seasons and it was probably good to get his blood pumping in that way again. Even if he didn't take full advantage or see all the icetime he could have.

ds155 05-05-2004 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
I wonder how Francis feels about waiving his NTC to compete for a cup then not being allowed to play in the most important game of the playoffs for his team. It's a strange irony involved. Even in his last few games, he was disrespected. While Mark Messier plays a meaningless final game of the season and gets a standing ovation, Francis gets told by Pat Quinn that he's not good enough and takes a seat in the press box. It just adds to Francis's legacy as one of the most underappreciated and disrespected players of all-time, considering his contribution to the game.

Now let's let the Carolina Hurricanes sign him in the offseason and give him the symbolic retirement party that he deserves. Just think about how up in arms everyone would be if Mark Messier did get traded to the Red Wings and was benched for Game 6 against Calgary. There would be a virtual riot, i'm sure.

Oh well. As long as Francis doesn't regret it, then we're fine. He hadn't played a meaningful game in two seasons and it was probably good to get his blood pumping in that way again. Even if he didn't take full advantage or see all the icetime he could have.

It's laughable that you people think the organization should disrespect itself and it's real fans by dressing a player who used to be good but who the game has passed by, just so he can have a story book ending. Ron Francis isn't NHL material anymore get over it hockey is a team game not an individual sport, those of you who think Quinn should put our chances at risk so poor Francis and his supporters will be happy are a joke.

Teezax 05-05-2004 01:32 PM

Personally if i'm coaching, I would have had Francis in ther einstead of Antropov (who has done nothing in a Leafs' jersey for numerous years) It's a matter of respect. The guy can win important faceoffs, and has been in that sort of environment many times over. look back 1 year when the Devils wer eplaying game 7 against the Ducks...Burns dressed Daneyko after sitting him out the whole series, and did anyone notice how he played? He was awesome and was a big reason why they won the cup. I disagree with this move, especially when i see a guy like Antropov doing crap out there.

GKJ 05-05-2004 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Love
He was listed as a healthy scratch, that is why people are, rightfully and understandibly, considering him a healthy scratch. Quinn could be telling the truth, or he could be making an excuse to dodge a bullett. Only he and Francis know, for now all we have to go on is him being listed as a healthy scratch, and then later being told he was hurt (although this is the first I've heard of it).


http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/...-toronto040504

Quote:

Quinn once again shuffled the Leafs' lineup as forwards Ron Francis and Clarke Wilm were scratched in favour of Tom Fitzgerald and Robert Reichel.

Toronto was also without forward Owen Nolan and defenceman Ken Klee, both sidelined with knee injuries.
I agree though, Francis should get his proper send off. A player who has over 1700 points shouldn't be a healthy scratch in his last game. Although I think he will retire. I don't think it will be worth it for him to go through the rigours regiment and agenda when he's already in his 40's unless he thinks he still has gas, or can contribute, or thinks he owes the fans anything.

Dr Love 05-05-2004 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ
I agree though, Francis should get his proper send off. A player who has over 1700 points shouldn't be a healthy scratch in his last game. Although I think he will retire. I don't think it will be worth it for him to go through the rigours regiment and agenda when he's already in his 40's unless he thinks he still has gas, or can contribute, or thinks he owes the fans anything.

The thing I disagree with is the notion that they should dress him simply out of respect. Give him 5-7 minutes of ice time, fine, but do so because he would be a better contributor than someone on the fourth line. Obviously, Pat Quinn didn't feel that he was. The argument for dressing him "just because" he's Ron Francis and the Leafs somehow owe it to him isn't good enough.

Teezax 05-05-2004 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Love
Thank you.



The thing I disagree with is the notion that they should dress him simply out of respect. Give him 5-7 minutes of ice time, fine, but do so because he would be a better contributor than someone on the fourth line. Obviously, Pat Quinn didn't feel that he was. The argument for dressing him "just because" he's Ron Francis and the Leafs somehow owe it to him isn't good enough.

Respect has a little to do with it, but out of 12 forwards dressed last night, there is no way he is ranked 13th on that list.

highstickingyerface 05-05-2004 01:37 PM

If Ron Francis wasn't NHL material why bother seeking his services at all?

Nik Antropov scored 2 points and took several stupid penalties

He was far from effective at all

As my original post stated.. even if you played Francis as your 4th line guy and on powerplays.. he wouldn't be detrimental to your chances of success and you wouldn't be disrespecting a legend.

Caniac's analysys with Messier is very valid.... if Leaf fans don't like it imagine if Gilmour had been healthy last year and scratched for game 7 against Philly .. what kind of uproar would there be then?

ds155 05-05-2004 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Love
Thank you.



The thing I disagree with is the notion that they should dress him simply out of respect. Give him 5-7 minutes of ice time, fine, but do so because he would be a better contributor than someone on the fourth line. Obviously, Pat Quinn didn't feel that he was. The argument for dressing him "just because" he's Ron Francis and the Leafs somehow owe it to him isn't good enough.


Agreed you earn your ice and spot in the line up with your recent play, not what you did for Hartford, Pittsburgh and Carolina ages ago. And then to mention him in the same breath as those Leafs who also played horrible like that's a good argument doesn't cut it either, he was just as bad and yet had no upside to him.

Vagrant 05-05-2004 01:46 PM

Ron Francis: 2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 12 3 7 10
Playoffs: 12 0 4 4
Playoff Career Totals: 171 46 97 143

Nik Antropov: 2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 13 18 31
Playoffs: 13 0 2 2
Playoff Career Totals: 28 2 3 5


Not to mention the fact that Ron Francis is one of the most clutch players i've ever seen, he had double the production of Antropov this playoffs. Neither had been overly impressive. Plus, he was almost a point per game player for the Leafs down the stretch in his brief stretch of games. Francis wins huge faceoffs, has played in this situation loads of times, and brings a presence to the ice that is often a stabilizer for the other players.

No matter how I look at it, I don't understand it.

highstickingyerface 05-05-2004 01:47 PM

Quote:

Agreed you earn your ice and spot in the line up with your recent play,
If that were true Antropov and Mccabe should have been scratched last night not Francis and Johansson

Anyone who thinks career veterans with cup rings and captains of franchises don't (shouldn't) get preferential treatment is not living in the real world.

Francis had 4 points and a +/- of EVEN... how was he so detrimental he deserved to be scratched? Antropov had 2 points and 18 PIMS and a +1....... Tucker 2 points and a -3... hell your sniper Mogilny only had 2 goals and floated thru the entire first round.. he wasn't scratched

ds155 05-05-2004 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
If that were true Antropov and Mccabe should have been scratched last night not Francis and Johansson

Anyone who thinks career veterans with cup rings and captains of franchises don't (shouldn't) get preferential treatment is not living in the real world.

Francis had 4 points and a +/- of EVEN... how was he so detrimental he deserved to be scratched? Antropov had 2 points and 18 PIMS and a +1....... Tucker 2 points and a -3... hell your sniper Mogilny only had 2 goals and floated thru the entire first round.. he wasn't scratched


Well see you're showing how much you know when you're trying to suggest Francis was ahead of Tucker and Mogilny too. Antropov was out there against Primeau if you're suggesting that Francis would've done better against Primeau well then I'm done with this thread. Actually yeah I'm done with this thread, dude plays like crap contributes a few 2nd assists and it's posted like that's a huge acomplishment. Calle Johansson in the line up too eh hahahaha.

highstickingyerface 05-05-2004 01:56 PM

I wasn't suggesting at all putting Francis in over Tucker or Mogilny.. merely pointing out many others had played well below expectations and no thought of scratching them was made

altho Mogilny was completely invisible against Ottawa.. i would question Quinn's wisdom if he had scratched him too but going by your argument he would have been using good coaching tactics to do so

Antropov was matched against Primeau all series? Funny how this so called feud started between Antropov and Roenick then and Primeau made Sundin and company his personal ***** in Philly... maybe you should be done with this thread if those are your beliefs or just take your own advice and watch the games a bit closer.. I'll help you out tho Primeau is huge and wears number 25... Roenick not so much and wears 97. You're welcome.

ds155 05-05-2004 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
I wasn't suggesting at all putting Francis in over Tucker or Mogilny.. merely pointing out many others had played well below expectations and no thought of scratching them was made

altho Mogilny was completely invisible against Ottawa.. i would question Quinn's wisdom if he had scratched him too but going by your argument he would have been using good coaching tactics to do so

Antropov was matched against Primeau all series? Funny how this so called feud started between Antropov and Roenick then and Primeau made Sundin and company his personal ***** in Philly... maybe you should be done with this thread if those are your beliefs or just take your own advice and watch the games a bit closer.. I'll help you out tho Primeau is huge and wears number 25... Roenick not so much and wears 97. You're welcome.


Hey who was always lining up against Primeau in Toronto? Who was J.R.'s line going against yesterday? in Philly Hitchcock had last change so he was putting Primeau out there against Mats and whoever else. In Toronto it was Antropov being put out there against Primeau. Feud? it was 1 incident and you're calling it a feud. Francis did nothing to help this team on the ice, and if he did I sure as hell didn't notice it.


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