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-   -   Ovechkin for Kovalchuk Proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=76210)

Love Machine 05-05-2004 10:31 PM

Ovechkin for Kovalchuk Proposal
 
How is this deal in terms of value? I know this deal would never happen, but I am interested to see what you have to say about this one.

leafaholix* 05-05-2004 10:34 PM

Ovechkin's as talented as Kovalchuk... but he actually plays a physical game and is solid defensively.

Any team would be crazy to deal Ovechkin for Kovalchuk.

V for Voodoo 05-05-2004 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Ovechkin's as talented as Kovalchuk... but he actually plays a physical game and is solid defensively.

Any team would be crazy to deal Ovechkin for Kovalchuk.

:lol: :lol:
Oooh Mercy. When will it end.

EroCaps 05-05-2004 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love Machine
How is this deal in terms of value? I know this deal would never happen, but I am interested to see what you have to say about this one.

You're going to see responses spanning the spectrum, my friend. ;)

craig1 05-05-2004 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo
:lol: :lol:
Oooh Mercy. When will it end.


Love the avatar Voodoo! :lol:

leafaholix* 05-05-2004 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo
:lol: :lol:
Oooh Mercy. When will it end.

You would trade Ovechkin for Kovalchuk?

Remember, Ovechkin's been touted as the great Russian prospect ever... by scouts.

FlyersFan10* 05-05-2004 10:59 PM

Please....enough with this hype over Ovechkin. I'm sorry, but Ovechkin isn't even worth the sweat off Kovalchuk's scrotum. Kovalchuk will be the better player. If I were Atlanta and Washington wanted Kovalchuk, it'd take a hell of a lot more than Ovechkin to get him. You'd better be prepared to give up not only Ovechkin, but at least (and I do mean at least) Steve Eminger, Alexander Semin, and Eric Fehr. I'll say this. Ovechkin will not even compare to what Kovalchuk did in his first year. And if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. However, I'm tired of hearing this hype about Ovechkin and when WJC tournament time came around, he did nothing to back it up. When it was Kovalchuk's time, he backed up the number 1 ranking.

HuskyFlames 05-05-2004 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafaholix
You would trade Ovechkin for Kovalchuk?

Remember, Ovechkin's been touted as the great Russian prospect ever... by scouts.

Kovachuk is already tested and shown he is a star in the NHL while Oven has done NOTHING YET. I personally wouldn't take the risk, especially when you already have a proven guy who can score you 40+ goals on a good year (and he is already very young) and is already capable of 90 points.

To make the trade is very risky and not worth it. Why trade for a guy that is great ONLY on paper and not done a thing for the NHL. What is the difference gonna be a guy who can get maybe 10 more points IF THAT a season???? Why take the risk. Sounds like the risk greatly outweights the promise in this case.

EroCaps 05-05-2004 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Please....enough with this hype over Ovechkin. I'm sorry, but Ovechkin isn't even worth the sweat off Kovalchuk's scrotum. Kovalchuk will be the better player. If I were Atlanta and Washington wanted Kovalchuk, it'd take a hell of a lot more than Ovechkin to get him. You'd better be prepared to give up not only Ovechkin, but at least (and I do mean at least) Steve Eminger, Alexander Semin, and Eric Fehr. I'll say this. Ovechkin will not even compare to what Kovalchuk did in his first year. And if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. However, I'm tired of hearing this hype about Ovechkin and when WJC tournament time came around, he did nothing to back it up. When it was Kovalchuk's time, he backed up the number 1 ranking.

Sorry, but you lose all credibility with this post. Maybe consider reading more about Ovechkin's accomplishments and scouting reports before saddling us with this garbage. *crass*

Ovechkin, Semin, Fehr, and Eminger for Kovalchuck? At least? :lol

Whatever that is you're smoking must be of high quality, man.

Ovechkin outscored Kovalchuck in 5 exhibition games playing for Team Russia, as an 18 year old. He also plays defense, plays physical and won't be benched a handful of times for lack of effort.

I'm not saying he's *better* than Ilya, but what else can he prove? He's run every gauntlet.

bandwagon 05-05-2004 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love Machine
How is this deal in terms of value? I know this deal would never happen, but I am interested to see what you have to say about this one.

The value is probably about right as Ovechkin has the POTENTIAL (that's the key word here) to be as good as Kovalchuk, and that potential is probably enough to give him as high value as Kovalchuk, even though Kovalchuk is a proven superstar.

However, this trade has little chance of happening. Atlanta's not going to move Kovalchuk, who nearly led the NHL in scoring, for an unproven player in Ovechkin. And the Caps are not going to want to move Ovechkin. Not gonna happen, but the value probably is on.

EroCaps 05-05-2004 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
The value is probably about right as Ovechkin has the POTENTIAL (that's the key word here) to be as good as Kovalchuk, and that potential is probably enough to give him as high value as Kovalchuk, even though Kovalchuk is a proven superstar.

However, this trade has little chance of happening. Atlanta's not going to move Kovalchuk, who nearly led the NHL in scoring, for an unproven player in Ovechkin. And the Caps are not going to want to move Ovechkin. Not gonna happen, but the value probably is on.

:clap:

Seachd 05-05-2004 11:30 PM

40 goals as a 20 year old? And getting better all the time? I'd take Kovalchuk.

bandwagon 05-05-2004 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seachd
40 goals as a 20 year old? And getting better all the time? I'd take Kovalchuk.

I would too, but the poster was asking whether the value was on. I think it probably is, seeing as Ovechkin has the potential to be a special player too, and in today's NHL, potential is a vital part of a guy's value. Because Ovechkin's potential is basically sky-high, he is as valuable as Kovalchuk.

But for my team, I'd rather have Kovalchuk right now because he's proven more. Their potential isn't fair apart anyways.

Seachd 05-05-2004 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
I would too, but the poster was asking whether the value was on. I think it probably is, seeing as Ovechkin has the potential to be a special player too, and in today's NHL, potential is a vital part of a guy's value. Because Ovechkin's potential is basically sky-high, he is as valuable as Kovalchuk.

I don't think this is true. I personally think the GM that would trade Kovalchuk for Ovechkin would be in the very small minority. Unless they strongly believe that Ovechkin will be better, I don't see why they'd do it.

Jacob 05-06-2004 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Ovechkin's as talented as Kovalchuk... but he actually plays a physical game and is solid defensively.

So? Kovalchuk is an established 40 goal scorer with a ridiculous amount of room to grow. Ovechkin hasn't proven anything in the NHL.

Quote:

Ovechkin outscored Kovalchuck in 5 exhibition games playing for Team Russia, as an 18 year old. He also plays defense, plays physical and won't be benched a handful of times for lack of effort.
Exhibition games huh? Is that a joke, or are you seriously using WC exhibition games to insinuate that Ovechkin is better than Kovalchuk?

Not that it even needs to be argued, but exhibition games are used as a training camp, so Ovechkin probably got more ice time than Kovalchuk did, since his roster spot is never in question.

Quote:

I'm not saying he's *better* than Ilya, but what else can he prove? He's run every gauntlet
He hasn't run the NHL gauntlet.

I think Ovechkin's upside is what Kovalchuk is as a player right now. And believe me, that is by no means a knock on Ovechkin.

Chimaera 05-06-2004 12:59 AM

As a caps fan, I'd do it in a second


Young, talented... amazing scoring, and proven, vs. young talented and potential






Maybe Ovechkin pans out, maybe he doesn't. Probably will, but my grandfather always told me, 1 in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

kolanos 05-06-2004 01:14 AM

If I am a GM, I am thinking of a team's long-term success and not just getting the most offensively productive player. Ovechkin clearly has the offensive production potential of Kovalchuk, maybe even better. Right now Ovechkin is probably the only prospect with a comparable billing to Sidney Crosby. Ovechkin is already a more complete physical player than Kovalchuk -- and when you look at the elite leaders in the modern game, that can take their team to the next level, being able to play a physical game is key. I take Ovechkin first, Kovalchuk is one of the most natural goal scorers -- but goal scoring isn't everything. Pavel Bure couldn't carry a team, and I don't think Kovalchuk will be able to either -- Atlanta will come to depend on Heatley to have real success in the NHL.

Safir* 05-06-2004 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolanos
Atlanta will come to depend on Heatley to have real success in the NHL.

Yeah right! :shakehead

Atlanta has having a great first half and the biggest reason was Ilja Kovalchuk. Kovi was named team MVP. Atlanta missed the playoffs, due to injuries.

As far as the deal is concerned, I gladly say no thanks.

Kovi is still very young and has already established himself in the NHL and with the team. He's co-leading the NHL in goals and his 87 points (tied with Sakic) rank him SECOND in the NHL. Wasn't Daigle hyped to become the next best thing.

Jacob 05-06-2004 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolanos
Ovechkin is already a more complete physical player than Kovalchuk.

No he isn't. Being a two-way, gritty kind of player in the RSL is completely different from the NHL. Put Kovalchuk in the RSL right now, and he'd probably look like Forsberg in terms of "completeness".

Ovechkin projects to be a two-way winger with a complete game, but he isn't there yet by NHL standards, not at all.

There's no question that by NHL standards Kovalchuk is completely lost in his own zone, but you're not giving enough credit for his physical play. He can run guys over when he wants to and certainly has the size to grind it out and crash and bang. With the way he's developing, I wouldn't be surprised if in 2 years he is a complete player.

Quote:

Pavel Bure couldn't carry a team,
Best line ever.

kolanos 05-06-2004 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomACE
Yeah right! :shakehead
Atlanta has having a great first half and the biggest reason was Ilja Kovalchuk. Kovi was named team MVP. Atlanta missed the playoffs, due to injuries.

As far as the deal is concerned, I gladly say no thanks.

Kovi is still very young and has already established himself in the NHL and with the team. He's co-leading the NHL in goals and his 87 points (tied with Sakic) rank him SECOND in the NHL. Wasn't Daigle hyped to become the next best thing.

Kovalchuk couldn't carry Atlanta to the playoffs...and it's not injuries. The Kings came real close and they had atleast twice as many injuries as your beloved team. And it wasn't only Kovalchuk contributing to that hot start. Savard, Petrovicky, McEachern, Cowan all had a hot start -- hell, Savard was even out producing Kovalchuk in the first half of the season. You have a hot team, you'll undoubtedly have success -- but will it last? No. After the players burnout, you need someone who can keep playing a physical, hard-working game and keep creating scoring chances when the puck isn't going your way.

Nobody is disputing Kovalchuk's offensive talent. But he's not a complete package. Heatley plays a consistent all-around game and is the guy to build around. Pavel Bure had a ton of success when he was young like Kovalchuk, and I am not saying Kovalchuk will end up like Bure -- but they're similiar personalities and they play a similiar game (though Kovalchuk is more durable). Kovalchuk will be looked to provide consistent offensive production, he will continue to resist defensive responsibilty and will never be a physical threat. It's a team game, I build a team around a guy that excels at every aspect of it (or has real potential to) and has leadership qualities to get the most out of his teammates -- Ovechkin exemplifies many of those qualities, has size and actually uses it. That's just me, I don't think I am alone in that regard.

GoRyanMalone 05-06-2004 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafaholix
You would trade Ovechkin for Kovalchuk?

Remember, Ovechkin's been touted as the great Russian prospect ever... by scouts.

*sigh* Let's talk about the variables. Each player is a Russian. One has the scoring ability. The other can score but it is not his defining quality. Both skate very very well. Kovalchuk is proven. You heard it here first.

The mental approach taken by the two is different. Kovalchuk is less of a team player, but his mental approach enables him to take his game farther. To be the best.. Ovechkin (aka Mr. Soon to be ruined by the Capitals.. I HATE YOU ALL!) is said to be a more well rounded AND is also more commited mentally to the point that he's had a wiff of the RSL already.

Ovechkin - long way to go to try to reach the 'Potential' of Kovalcuck.
Kovalchuk - has reached the top branch and wants to go higher.

Bottom line.. the pens and caps should switch picks, who cares about Kovalchuk?

Epsilon 05-06-2004 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolanos
Nobody is disputing Kovalchuk's offensive talent. But he's not a complete package. Heatley plays a consistent all-around game and is the guy to build around. Pavel Bure had a ton of success when he was young like Kovalchuk, and I am not saying Kovalchuk will end up like Bure -- but they're similiar personalities and they play a similiar game (though Kovalchuk is more durable). Kovalchuk will be looked to provide consistent offensive production, he will continue to resist defensive responsibilty and will never be a physical threat. It's a team game, I build a team around a guy that excels at every aspect of it (or has real potential to) and has leadership qualities to get the most out of his teammates -- Ovechkin exemplifies many of those qualities, has size and actually uses it. That's just me, I don't think I am alone in that regard.

People still spout off this nonsense? I was hoping 2004 would see the end of these posts that unfortunately littered the board last season. Heatley is just as one-dimensional as Kovalchuk, and he showed it when he came back this year. His defensive game leaves plenty to be desired. Also, the idea that Kovalchuk doesn't use his big frame is ridiculous. He doesn't go around leveling guys, but he uses his size and strength to maintain puck control and launch his up-ice attacks, similarly to Jaromir Jagr in his Pittsburgh days. Given his age, he's a lot further along in becoming a "total package" than many other players with a similar age and level of experience.

Ovechkin is going to have to hit his full potential to be as good as Kovalchuk, and personally I still think Kovalchuk will be better than Ovechkin. Now, I haven't seen a ton of Ovechkin yet, but I don't see the fire in his game that Kovalchuk has.

Luigi Lemieux 05-06-2004 03:06 AM

I think with forsberg leaving, next year could be the year ilya becomes the best player in the league. Lehtonen backstopping all year, with Heatley on the team too? Kovalchuk could have a MONSTER year next year.

I wouldn't give Kovalchuk up for anyone.

I still wonder about Ovechkin. From everything i've heard, he's the best prospect in a long time, but i have barely seen him play. I don't understand why he isn't even in the top 45 in the rsl scoring, yet people say he's the best player not in the nhl. he had 6 points the second half of the rsl season, while netting 17 the first half. that's also a little troublesome.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he becomes a top 5 player within 3 years, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he's being overhyped.

Amen evil king 05-06-2004 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolanos
Pavel Bure couldn't carry a team

Pavel Bure did thank you very much, all the way to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals :p:

Offense is a skill, defense can be taught. Kovalchuk has showed willingness to backcheck and play defense, and he'll only get better with age. Kovalchuk is only one out of five on the ice at a time anyway, let the others do the defending ;)

Kovalchuk by a country mile IMO.

Safir* 05-06-2004 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolanos
Kovalchuk couldn't carry Atlanta to the playoffs...and it's not injuries. The Kings came real close and they had atleast twice as many injuries as your beloved team. And it wasn't only Kovalchuk contributing to that hot start. Savard, Petrovicky, McEachern, Cowan all had a hot start -- hell, Savard was even out producing Kovalchuk in the first half of the season. You have a hot team, you'll undoubtedly have success -- but will it last? No. After the players burnout, you need someone who can keep playing a physical, hard-working game and keep creating scoring chances when the puck isn't going your way.

Savard (from TSN:
04-Apr-04: Missed the last 17 games of the regular season (knee injury).
28-Feb-04: Knee injury, sidelined indefinitely.
27-Feb-04: Knee injury, left Friday's game.
30-Jan-04: Missed 7 games (right knee injury).
15-Jan-04: Right knee injury, sidelined indefinitely.
14-Jan-04: Missed 3 games (mild concussion).
04-Jan-04: Mild concussion, day-to-day.
28-Nov-03: Suspended by the NHL for one game.
23-Nov-03: Missed 9 games (left ankle surgery).
04-Nov-03: Left ankle surgery, early January.)

and Cowan (from TSN:
16-Jan-04: Missed 6 games (concussion).
31-Dec-03: Concussion, day-to-day.
26-Dec-03: Missed 4 games (flu).
16-Dec-03: Flu, day-to-day.)

were out over a considerable time, due to injuries.

LA missed the playoffs, because they role-player simply couldn't play as good as their injured superstars.

Atlanta missed the playoffs, because there ONE healthy superstar couldn't provide that much offense to compensate the "from time to time" scoring of the role players. Let me also state, that LA has a better defense than Atlanta and most of these guys only played ~65-71 (Rookie Dman Exelby) games. Within the first weeks of the new year several players were down with injuries.

Quote:

Nobody is disputing Kovalchuk's offensive talent. But he's not a complete package. Heatley plays a consistent all-around game and is the guy to build around. Pavel Bure had a ton of success when he was young like Kovalchuk, and I am not saying Kovalchuk will end up like Bure -- but they're similiar personalities and they play a similiar game (though Kovalchuk is more durable). Kovalchuk will be looked to provide consistent offensive production, he will continue to resist defensive responsibilty and will never be a physical threat. It's a team game, I build a team around a guy that excels at every aspect of it (or has real potential to) and has leadership qualities to get the most out of his teammates -- Ovechkin exemplifies many of those qualities, has size and actually uses it.
So your conclusion is? You would trade Kovalchuk for Ovechkin? :eek:

Kovalchuk is taken more and more defensive responsibilities, of course he wouldn't become a Peca or Lethinen type-of-guy, but he's improving. Geez, he's going into his fourth season and as the other posters said, he's improving every year.:)

IMO Kovalchuk doesn't have to be physical threat, eventhough he has the body frame to just do so, in theory. Kovalchuk no leader? Well after the Snyder/ Heatley accident he grow into a man, especially after Snyder's mom told him that it's now his turn to lead the Thrashers, since Dany was out for a long time. Well, he did with scoring goals and also assists.

I agree on one point with you that Kovalchuk isn't the sole franchise cornerstone. In case of the Thrashers the "cornerstone-job" will be shared between Heatley, Kovalchuk and LETHONEN :yo:.


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