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-   -   Montreal - Los Angeles proposal. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=77092)

not quite yoda 05-10-2004 06:33 PM

Montreal - Los Angeles proposal.
 
Trade proposal:

-Theodore to L.A.

-Grebeshkov and 11th overall pick to MTL

I proposed this on the L.A. board. Got some mixed reviews. Some people jumped on the star goalies, others won't move Grebeshkov, others want (yet another) cheap goalie in L.A. instead.

I figure the Kings would solve their goaltending problems both short term and potentially long term (he is 27 -top goalies retire at around 38). They also get a bonafide all-star to help attract fans in the L.A. star driven market.

Montreal can sign an affordable backup to Garon. The kid deserves a shot as a no1. Many observers will say that Garon isn't that big a step down from Theodore. Meanwhile the team improves at other positions as the re-building process continues. Remember that this team's future is through its prospects. With sharp drafting the last 3 seasons, the 11th overall pick should pay off.

I am expecting to get flamed by my fellow Habs fans though.

:jump:

GKJ 05-10-2004 06:34 PM

If you're Montreal, why do you trade Theodore? Sure Garon deserves a shot. It's not going to happen in Montreal.

not quite yoda 05-10-2004 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
If you're Montreal, why do you trade Theodore? Sure Garon deserves a shot. It's not going to happen in Montreal.

He can be ultra-solid in the regular season. But... in the last minute of a tight playoff game at the Bell Centre... he chokes. Several times over the years. Garon is supposed to be almost as good but has never gotten a real shot. He has been successfull everywhere he has gone.

Lots of goalies out there in a situation similar to Garon (Noronen, Gerber, Miller, etc...). Can't get much for Garon in a trade so it's not worth moving him. Theodore's worth on the trade market is much higher than Garon's. If it isn't, then I wouldn't trade either.

:jump:

GKJ 05-10-2004 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
He can be ultra-solid in the regular season. But... in the last minute of a tight playoff game at the Bell Centre... he chokes. Several times over the years. Garon is supposed to be almost as good but has never gotten a real shot. He has been successfull everywhere he has gone.

Lots of goalies out there in a situation similar to Garon (Noronen, Gerber, Miller, etc...). Can't get much for Garon in a trade so it's not worth moving him. Theodore's worth on the trade market is much higher than Garon's. If it isn't, then I wouldn't trade either.

:jump:


I find it beyond absurd that this is the reason you want Theodore gone. When you're a 7 and 8 seed in the playoffs you're not supposed to be going deep in the playoffs. Just typing this is like nails on a chalkboard. In a respectable way, this is quite laughable as a reason to trade a goalie who has consistently been one of the best goalies in the league. Seriously, though. Trade Theodore? :shakehead

Fat Elvis 05-10-2004 07:27 PM

LA is more than a goalie away, why would they trade their 1st rounder and not have a pick until the mid 3rd and their best defensive prospect for a player that may help them sneak into the 8th spot? Look at LA, and you will see that they need more help than a goalie. Not a good trade proposal imo, I think you have the wrong team to trade with. Try Vancouver. LA could use the pick and Grebs more than your goalie.

toughstuff 05-10-2004 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
If you're Montreal, why do you trade Theodore? Sure Garon deserves a shot. It's not going to happen in Montreal.

The knowledgeable HABS fan are open minded. They would rather keep Theo but if the package cannot be refused they are willing to part with Theo and take a well calculated risk with Garon.

I don't know the Kings assets well enough to comment whether a trade between the two teams is plausible.

I do know however that Grebeshkov and a 1st is no go.

It will take an established dominant player and one or two blue chip prospects.

didjuicythat 05-10-2004 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughstuff
The knowledgeable HABS fan are open minded. They would rather keep Theo but if the package cannot be refused they are willing to part with Theo and take a well calculated risk with Garon.

I don't know the Kings assets well enough to comment whether a trade between the two teams is plausible.

I do know however that Grebeshkov and a 1st is no go.

It will take an established dominant player and one or two blue chip prospects.

I agree. Theodore has more value than that. Three of fours ordinary performances in net in this year's playoffs doesn't make him expendable anyways. He is still easily among the 5-6 best goalthenders in the game. Period. Gainey won't listen to offers until he gets an equally *dominant* and established player in return.

FF de Mars 05-10-2004 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughstuff
The knowledgeable HABS fan are open minded. They would rather keep Theo but if the package cannot be refused they are willing to part with Theo and take a well calculated risk with Garon.

I don't know the Kings assets well enough to comment whether a trade between the two teams is plausible.

I do know however that Grebeshkov and a 1st is no go.

It will take an established dominant player and one or two blue chip prospects.

Exacly, and that is why théo won't be traded!

friesen12 05-10-2004 09:02 PM

Cecmanek great ;) ;)

not quite yoda 05-10-2004 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
When you're a 7 and 8 seed in the playoffs you're not supposed to be going deep in the playoffs. In a respectable way, this is quite laughable as a reason to trade a goalie who has consistently been one of the best goalies in the league. Trade Theodore?

2002 game 4 vs Carolina at Bell Centre. Chokes in the last minute. Loses in OT.
2002 game 6 vs Carolina at Bell Centre. Allows 5 or 6 goals in 2 periods.
2004 game 4 vs Boston at Bell Centre. Chokes in the last minute. Loses in OT.
2004 game 3 vs TB at Bell Centre. Chokes in last minute. Loses in OT.

and there were other questionable playoff performances at home.

The team was playing well enough to win at least 3 of those games. In fact they were leading after 59 minutes. If Theodore could keep the boat afloat, wh knows what could have hapenned. in 2002, winning game 4 would have given Montreal a 3-1 lead...

Top goalies in the League are those who have prooven that they can take their team a good way in the playoffs. Sure MTL finished 7th this season, but if you look at the point totals, they weren't far off from 6th and 5th. It was thought that any of the top 7 seeds in the East could challenge. MTL prooved that they could by outplaying and defeating a heavily favoured BTN team. If TB and MTL would have had even goaltending in their series, the series would not have been a sweep.

Theodore can put the Habs in the playoffs. good.But I feel that so can Garon. Theodore seems to have trouble under big time pressure in the clutch in the Montreal games. Maybe he could do even better in laid back Lala land. Grebeshkov and an 11th pick should materialize into 2 more good young players that would fit in with thge youth movement that will be ongoing during the next 2 to 3 years.

:jump:

not quite yoda 05-10-2004 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KING ELVI
. Not a good trade proposal imo, I think you have the wrong team to trade with. Try Vancouver. LA could use the pick and Grebs more than your goalie.

If a trade would go through, Montreal would need promissing young players back. L.A. has such elements: Frolov, Grebeshkov, Brown... an 11th overall pick in this draft is good too.

Vancouver could use a Theodore. Yes. But what young elements do they have that Montreal could really benefit from? Kesler: not as good as those Kings kids. Allen: hasn't done great despite being drafted 4th overall; Montreal has big, somewhat slow guys already in Komisarek, Souray and Rivet. Fedorov? Bust. Reid? Not blue chip material. Sedins? Underachievers.

Sorry but if you look at what Vancouver has in terms of youth, it's not a match.

:jump:

Traitor8 05-10-2004 10:41 PM

Theodore = NOT TO TRADE!

Herby 05-10-2004 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Theodore = NOT TO TRADE!

hey buddy why dont you just come on here and post the entire Habs roster and say "Not for Trade"

Why do you find the need to jump into all these posts and say all these Habs are not for trade, we're just trying to have some fun here discussing potential trades, plus if Gretzky, Jagr and Roy can be traded, Jose Theodore or anyone else from Montreal can as well.

Herby 05-10-2004 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughstuff
It will take an established dominant player and one or two blue chip prospects.

Then as others have said, there is no way he would go.

Let's just use the Kings for example, so using your established dominant player the Kings would have to part with I assume either Palffy or Norstrom + 2 blue chip prospects.

So to get Jose Theodore the Kings would have to move Palffy/Norstrom + Brown + 1st in 04

You honestly think you'll get a return like that?

Traitor8 05-10-2004 11:00 PM

no ..I'm not saying your return is bad.. your return is good..
but the habs won't trade their franchsie goalie today. Not when they dunno who is the real garon and the last 2 superstars goalies to get traded(Hasek and Roy)....guess what happend to their teams....

toughstuff 05-10-2004 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herby
Then as others have said, there is no way he would go.

Let's just use the Kings for example, so using your established dominant player the Kings would have to part with I assume either Palffy or Norstrom + 2 blue chip prospects.

So to get Jose Theodore the Kings would have to move Palffy/Norstrom + Brown + 1st in 04

You honestly think you'll get a return like that?

I think it will be highly unlikely. But we are in no hurry to trade him. In fact we are not looking to trade him but should the Kings come around and offer the moon then why not pull the trigger.

The HABS are in a position of strength.

Isn't Palffy a soon to be UFA?
I don't know much about Norstrom...

TwineSniper 05-10-2004 11:34 PM

I'm sorry, but the reasoning I am seeing for dealing Théodore are beyond ridiculous.

In a season that we went above and beyond expectations, yet you still find the need to blame a scapegoat, Théodore, and you apparently feel he is alone to blame for losses? It couldn't possibly be any of other 18 players fault, eh? And go even further, and blame him for losses 2 years ago.

good job.

Anksun 05-11-2004 12:01 AM

Almost all people usually agree to put Theodore name in top5 of the league, and a sure top10 every day of the week and now we gonna start seeing Trade Theo rumours, please no!

While i do agree Theo have not been playing well this playoffs. Every single goalie will one day have some up and down. Brodeur have not been especially good this year playoffs either, Roy was dominant with Montreal but i can remember many asking for a trade after some bad games and especially a red-blue line shot that went in... Khabi is right now (well let's forget this 6-2 game today) a god in many people mind, but i can remember some period last year and even this year where Grahame was closer and closer from the 1st goalie's job in TB... And i could add many.

Theodore have win Hart and Vezina 2 years ago, is still young, have lead a team that 90% of the "experts" and fans were putting at 9th-13th in the east into the playoffs, not only that but this team was with a small 5 games remaining into the year was still mathematicaly able to get up to 100 points...

I'm certainly not ready to restart our search of a true number 1 goalie AGAIN after the lost of Roy. Some could argue that Garon is ready and will be a very good 1st goalie. That might be true But SO was Thibeault when he comes in in exchange for Roy. He was never able to put it all together considering how difficult it was to comes in Roy sockets. That very well could be the case again, Theodore WOULD be hard to forget.

Just imagine 1 thing: You Trade Theo, The habs gets some injuries and They missed the playoffs. What happens to Garon? He's DONE. End of story -- Too late for him, he just missed to boat. In a city like Mtl, you cannot comes in and ask for 2 years to become the next good one after such a great goalie.

My point is: You cannot trade a goalie like that except if you Know for sure you will have success immediatly after the trade (but who know? you know? i certainly know that i dont know). If you dont, the next goalie is done. Thibeault is fine now (barring injuries) but never could he have developt to his full potential in Montreal, no way no chance... Could be another story with Garon, could be the exact same one... I'm not ready to make another one of those guess with the prospects we got right now, the future is closer and closer and Theo age should fit perfectly with the upcoming of this team, thanks.

Fat Elvis 05-11-2004 01:18 AM

From a Kings pov it just doesn't make much sense. Like you have all said that Theodore is a top 5 goalie, the kings need those good young players because Palffy is a ufa and there are some glaring holes on the team. A great goalie can get you so far, but as you know if you surround him with nothing you'll go nowhere. Grebs is our top D prospect and a big part of their plan to build from within. The 11th pick can also bring a decent player that can make a difference in a few years which is about how far away the Kings are from being decent imo. I can't see you guys trading Theodore unless there was no doubt that Garon can replace him with better numbers.

Zednik 05-11-2004 01:29 AM

a big NO from Montreal. You don't trade a top-5 goalie for a pick and a suspect. Theo is going nowhere.

punchy1 05-11-2004 11:15 AM

The other things that always get overlooked but mentioned in the same breath are that there are TONS of solid young goalies who are ready for their shot at starting or close to it.

Noronen/Biron/Miller are just three of M A N Y names that could possibly be available this summer and for a TON less than it would take to get Theo, a truly great goalie no doubt but, not so great that some Hab fans wouldn't deal him, so why would the Kings even begin to consider this deal?

Grebeshkov is money in the bank. He is one of HFs top 18 prospects and ranked even higher than that by many others. He played absolutely bloody grand when he came up with the Kings for his cuppa late this year so, while he alone isn't worth Theo, the Kings would need a massive return to move him.

The 11th pick is debatable but all picks always are, still, it is very valuable to the Kings who as other have said need a bloody lot more than a top goalie to get them to the next point so they would be better served to either draft the best player available at 11th or try dealing the pick to move up or as part of a package deal that will address more than one of their many needs.

Also, Theo has taken some hits over the past two years on the character front and while I feel it is much ado about naught, I wouldn't think that the Habs would want to deal him if they were to at all until a little more time has passed so his value can rocket.

If I wanted to deal Theo, I would wait until 20 or so games passed and see who is desperate and then try to bang out a deal but that is me.

No thanks from a Kings fan point of veiw, too many other viable options and the price is too steep for what it brings to our needs, not that Theo isn't worth it.

GKJ 05-11-2004 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
2002 game 4 vs Carolina at Bell Centre. Chokes in the last minute. Loses in OT.
2002 game 6 vs Carolina at Bell Centre. Allows 5 or 6 goals in 2 periods.
2004 game 4 vs Boston at Bell Centre. Chokes in the last minute. Loses in OT.
2004 game 3 vs TB at Bell Centre. Chokes in last minute. Loses in OT.

and there were other questionable playoff performances at home.

The team was playing well enough to win at least 3 of those games. In fact they were leading after 59 minutes. If Theodore could keep the boat afloat, wh knows what could have hapenned. in 2002, winning game 4 would have given Montreal a 3-1 lead...

Top goalies in the League are those who have prooven that they can take their team a good way in the playoffs. Sure MTL finished 7th this season, but if you look at the point totals, they weren't far off from 6th and 5th. It was thought that any of the top 7 seeds in the East could challenge. MTL prooved that they could by outplaying and defeating a heavily favoured BTN team. If TB and MTL would have had even goaltending in their series, the series would not have been a sweep.

Theodore can put the Habs in the playoffs. good.But I feel that so can Garon. Theodore seems to have trouble under big time pressure in the clutch in the Montreal games. Maybe he could do even better in laid back Lala land. Grebeshkov and an 11th pick should materialize into 2 more good young players that would fit in with thge youth movement that will be ongoing during the next 2 to 3 years.

:jump:

How can you blame him in 2002 whjen they lost to Carolina, and this year when they lost to Tampa Bay? How do you fault a goalie who plays for a team that's supposed to lose to these teams? If not for Theodore, the Habs don't even play Tampa Bay. How do you call a goalie a playoff failure when he's only been in the playoffs 2 years? Not only that, Theodore is like 26 years old, his best years are ahead of him, however that doesn't keep him in Montreal. If Garon is 26 and starting and doesn't have more or the same success, you'll want to dump him off so you can give another unproven start a chance, or whine for Theodore to come back.


And if Theodore was to be traded, and Garon misses the playoffs, here comes every Habs fan back to the trade board wanting a proven starting goalie and calling Gainey a moron for trading Theodore. The only way Theodore will ever get traded is if he holds out, or he isn't the #1 anymore.


Seriously, as a person who really could care less about the success or lack thereof of the Habs, to trade Theodore is absolutle insane. There are probably about 24 teams in the league who want Theodore, however you seem to think Montreal shouldn't be one of them.

When you have a goalie like Theodore, under almost NO circumstances does he get traded.

Trade him to Ottawa and see how much you'd miss him.

not quite yoda 05-11-2004 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
How can you blame him in 2002 whjen they lost to Carolina, and this year when they lost to Tampa Bay? How do you fault a goalie who plays for a team that's supposed to lose to these teams? If not for Theodore, the Habs don't even play Tampa Bay. How do you call a goalie a playoff failure when he's only been in the playoffs 2 years? Not only that, Theodore is like 26 years old, his best years are ahead of him, however that doesn't keep him in Montreal. If Garon is 26 and starting and doesn't have more or the same success, you'll want to dump him off so you can give another unproven start a chance, or whine for Theodore to come back.


And if Theodore was to be traded, and Garon misses the playoffs, here comes every Habs fan back to the trade board wanting a proven starting goalie and calling Gainey a moron for trading Theodore. The only way Theodore will ever get traded is if he holds out, or he isn't the #1 anymore.


Seriously, as a person who really could care less about the success or lack thereof of the Habs, to trade Theodore is absolutle insane. There are probably about 24 teams in the league who want Theodore, however you seem to think Montreal shouldn't be one of them.

When you have a goalie like Theodore, under almost NO circumstances does he get traded.

Trade him to Ottawa and see how much you'd miss him.

You don't trade a star goalie to a team in the same conference. That's why Ottawa won't get him. I judge his playoff performances because he has had 2 years, 4 series and that is plenty for an evaluation. I am not basing this on one fluke game. Wether Montreal was SUPPOSED to play TB or not is irrelevant. The point is that THEY DID play TB. And when they did, they played well enough in 2 games to win. They didn't because the goaltending didn't hold up. Against Carolina, he choked in the last minute and allowed a softy in OT. Then in game 6 when we had a chance to get back into it at home, he was AWFULL. I was there, every god damn half-challenging shot went in. It was depressing and he was pulled in the last game of a Hart winning year. What does that tell you? And OT goals scored against him (namely Richards in game 3 and Bergeron in game 2 I think) were clear mistakes by Theodore.

I don't know why you seem to think Theodore is bloody Jesus. I guess you aren't use to good goalies in Philly. Theodore is no clutch playoff guy like Roy, Belfour, Vernon and Brodeur have been.

I feel that Garon can be nearly as good in the reg. seson and superior in the playoffs. So why not go with him? I guess you haven't seen all of Garon's career NHL games like I have. You can trade Theodore when you have equivalent talent to back it up. Why is improving your team at two different positions not something to even consider?

:jump:

:jump:

GKJ 05-11-2004 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
I guess you haven't seen all of Garon's career NHL games like I have. You can trade Theodore when you have equivalent talent to back it up. Why is improving your team at two different positions not something to even consider?

:jump:

:jump:

I've seen him steal games, but he's never been a starter. If you want to trade Theodore, why don't you give him a chance while Theodore is still there. Plus like I said, Theodore isn't even 30 years old yet. It's one thing if he's 35 and is a proven playoff failure. At 27 he is hardly that. And what happens when this goalie who you want to hand the reigns too bombs because he's never been a starter before and now the Habs are back in the situation they were in 4 years ago, switching between 3 and 4 goalies. If you trade Theodore, the guy coming in is going to be ready to be a #1, now just some guy who you like.


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