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Ajax02 05-03-2010 11:39 AM

Off-season Training
 
It's that time of the year again!

Just had a question regarding what would benefit me the most regarding off-season training.

Because of cost/time constraints the only ice time I can get is really early morning and I plan on going 3 times a week.
Now my goal for the summer is to bulk-up quite a bit but also keep my conditioning and endurance in check (obviously want to keep well-rounded).

So do you suggest I do weight training after my morning skates (ex. M/W/F). And then do my conditioning workouts on the Tues/Thur?
Or should I be doing it the other way around?

I've been looking around and articles have pros/cons for weight training after cardio, just want to see if you guys have any input. Any help/feedback is appreciated.

Jarick 05-03-2010 11:46 AM

How old are you, what kind of shape are you in, what level of hockey do you play?

You say you want to bulk up...are you doing any lifting and what's your schedule?

Are you involved in any training camps, power skating lessons, etc?



I like Gary Roberts' idea of training for hockey. He thinks it's better to get as strong as possible rather than cardio conditioning. And it's hard to argue when he trained Stamkos and Downey this offseason and they had monster years. The theory is that hockey is more anaerobic than aerobic, that strong legs equal power and bigger impact on the ice.

BadHammy* 05-03-2010 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarick (Post 25603756)
How old are you, what kind of shape are you in, what level of hockey do you play?

You say you want to bulk up...are you doing any lifting and what's your schedule?

Are you involved in any training camps, power skating lessons, etc?



I like Gary Roberts' idea of training for hockey. He thinks it's better to get as strong as possible rather than cardio conditioning. And it's hard to argue when he trained Stamkos and Downey this offseason and they had monster years. The theory is that hockey is more anaerobic than aerobic, that strong legs equal power and bigger impact on the ice.

I agree, but lean mass, not general bulk is best for hockey. And the catch is, lean mass takes a LONG TIME to get. General bulk will slow you down, lean mass will speed you up. Basically, if you can gain 10 lbs of solid muscle in a span of 6 months, you're doing great! Good luck.

Ajax02 05-03-2010 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarick (Post 25603756)
How old are you, what kind of shape are you in, what level of hockey do you play?

You say you want to bulk up...are you doing any lifting and what's your schedule?

Are you involved in any training camps, power skating lessons, etc?



I like Gary Roberts' idea of training for hockey. He thinks it's better to get as strong as possible rather than cardio conditioning. And it's hard to argue when he trained Stamkos and Downey this offseason and they had monster years. The theory is that hockey is more anaerobic than aerobic, that strong legs equal power and bigger impact on the ice.

I'm 20, in generally good shape but my muscle mass is not where it should/want it to be. I'm 5'10 and about 150lbs.
I just finished my last yr of minor hockey playing Juvenile, planning to hopefully try out for a Junior B team.

I've done some occasional lifting, but nothing on a serious schedule however I do want to get on a strict schedule this summer.
As I said before, I will be skating every M/W/F morning so if its better to be getting as strong as possible is it okay to be weight training after my morning skates? And then doing some conditioning/endurance on the Tues/Thurs?

noobman 05-03-2010 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkwan20 (Post 25603641)
It's that time of the year again!

Just had a question regarding what would benefit me the most regarding off-season training.

Because of cost/time constraints the only ice time I can get is really early morning and I plan on going 3 times a week.
Now my goal for the summer is to bulk-up quite a bit but also keep my conditioning and endurance in check (obviously want to keep well-rounded).

So do you suggest I do weight training after my morning skates (ex. M/W/F). And then do my conditioning workouts on the Tues/Thur?
Or should I be doing it the other way around?

I've been looking around and articles have pros/cons for weight training after cardio, just want to see if you guys have any input. Any help/feedback is appreciated.

I'm not a professional, but from what I've seen and heard from books, videos, and being around my university's varisty team, a lot of guys will split the summer into three to four training periods. Strength training --> Plyometrics --> Cardio is what I've seen most of the guys do. That's not to imply that they do *only* these things during the period... but they focus more on that aspect and less on the others.

It might make for quicker results in each department, instead of trying to train them all equally throughout the summer. I'm going to spend most of the summer getting stronger to prevent future knee injuries. The latter half of the summer will be spent working on my cardio and skills.

I haven't been on the ice since early March, and I got pretty fat during rehab... so I'm going to try to get as much additional cardio as possible.

Based on your description, strength training might be the way to go. My guess is that you're a skinny guy who isn't carrying a lot of body fat, so your conditioning should be pretty good.

Jarick 05-03-2010 03:30 PM

I'll second that, again, from what I read it was something about taking 2-3 weeks of cardio training to get into "game shape", and using the first part of summer to recover, then the second part to build mass, then finally some cardio.

Personally, I'd probably do 5x5 stronglifts (lifting 2-3x per week) and drop to once a week on the ice, skip the cardio altogether. As the season gets closer, ease up on the lifting and get on the ice more. Plenty of legs, back and core workouts for strength.

Ani simov mal 05-03-2010 04:09 PM

My summer is split into mass, strength, power.

BadHammy* 05-03-2010 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkwan20 (Post 25604415)
I'm 20, in generally good shape but my muscle mass is not where it should/want it to be. I'm 5'10 and about 150lbs.
I just finished my last yr of minor hockey playing Juvenile, planning to hopefully try out for a Junior B team.

I've done some occasional lifting, but nothing on a serious schedule however I do want to get on a strict schedule this summer.
As I said before, I will be skating every M/W/F morning so if its better to be getting as strong as possible is it okay to be weight training after my morning skates? And then doing some conditioning/endurance on the Tues/Thurs?

I think 20 lbs is a good target for you to gain. Like someone said before, a 5x5 regimen is a good idea, but stick to hockey specific exercises. Bent over rows, deadlifts, squats and lunges are going to be your main foundation. The military press is also great for hockey. Remember to not go nuts with the junk food. Keep a clean diet.

Little Nilan 05-03-2010 09:23 PM

Since you're a beginning weightlifter, do Starting Strength. I've been looking for a better program for a beginner, but honestly there's simply none. It's a three day a week program and its very sastifying. You'll do deadlifts, squats, bench press, press and power cleans. Eventually, add in rows, chin ups, glute ham raises, good mornings. But for your first summer, Starting Strength is more than enough. After 4-6 months, come back here and we'll help you for the next step.

For diet, if you want to bulk, start by determining your caloric needs. An easy way would be 200-250gs of protein and 70-100gs of fat (good fats: fish oil, flax, olive oil, almonds, nuts, animal fat[yes, even animal fat]). That's basically what you need to be sure you're gaining muscle, from there add in carbs to complete your diet. You're 5'10" 150lbs? I'm guessing 10-12% fat, so go with about 2700 calories at first (take your grams of protein times 4, plus your grams of fat times 9, substract this number to 2700, divide by 4 and you get your number of grams of carbs you need). Do this 2 weeks. If you didn't gain a pound (weigh yourself every morning after taking a **** and pissing), add 250 calories of carbs every day. If you gained too much fat, drop 250 calories of carbs every day. Do this until you get to your goal, try to measure your arms, thighs, stomach, chest for progress.

For quality of food, it doesn't really matter. Healthwise, I'd tell you to go with whole foods. If it's in a can or a box, most likely it's crap. Eat vegetables, fruits and whole grain carbs. Lots of chicken and beef of course. But you don't have to if you don't want, just understand that it's easier to break your caloric needs on a crap diet and it's not very good health wise. Don't need to cut things like rice or spagetti or even mcdonalds, just don't overeat and make sure you're inside your caloric needs.

For conditioning, two things:

-Drag a weighted slad. Search for westside barbell exercises or Louie Simmons typical routines.
-Hill sprints. Think of what a workhorse running back would run, then double that number.

Also, if this is too tiring, Try tabata protocols or barbell complexes, they're very effective. I trained exclusively with Tabatas 5 days a week last summer and without even touching my bike in at least 5 years, I did 50kms at a pretty insane rythm. Don't ask me how fast, I don't ****ing know, I just know I started late and blew by most of the other cyclists.

Remember that hockey is all about core and leg strength, as well as power and your anaerobic energy system. That's what you need to train.

Little Nilan 05-03-2010 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarick (Post 25607413)
I'll second that, again, from what I read it was something about taking 2-3 weeks of cardio training to get into "game shape", and using the first part of summer to recover, then the second part to build mass, then finally some cardio.

Personally, I'd probably do 5x5 stronglifts (lifting 2-3x per week) and drop to once a week on the ice, skip the cardio altogether. As the season gets closer, ease up on the lifting and get on the ice more. Plenty of legs, back and core workouts for strength.

I like madcow 5x5, but for intermediates. I used to like stronglifts, but I can't take the guy running it seriously. Mehdi is a guy who's been training for 10 years, yet weighs less than 160lbs and his work sets are my warm ups.

BadHammy* 05-03-2010 10:04 PM

I think Scotty gave you some good advice. But remember that you have to find your own program, what works best for you will take some time to figure out. Oh, and don't forget to work on off-ice things like stick handling and shooting to balance it out.

noobman 05-04-2010 03:15 PM

So I have a few questions about offseason training... specifically pertaining to amount of rest. If I'm on a weight training program, how many days a week should I be working out? I don't plan to weightlift more than 3x a week (lower body 2x a week, upper body 1x a week), but what do I do in between?

Suppose I do some weightlifting on Monday morning.... primarily for the lower body (hamstring curls, squats, lunges, etc). I'm doing these with the intent of fatiguing my muscles, in order to promote greater strength and muscle growth. Should I be doing any kind of cardio on the same day, or even the next day? Would it be harmful to go for a run on Monday night? Tuesday? How about hitting the ice for a good skate?

Typically I've always worked on cardio and skills all summer during the offseasons (which usually meant 4-6 days a week exercising) but I've found that over the past two years my durability has deteriorated, so I want to focus on strength for the summer. Just weightlifting 3x a week (and some swimming after finishing up w/ the weights) just doesn't seem like enough.

Badger36 05-04-2010 03:17 PM

You might also want to consider doing something to improve your flexibility. Flexibility is going to make every aspect of your game more efficient.

noobman 05-04-2010 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoBucky (Post 25625968)
You might also want to consider doing something to improve your flexibility. Flexibility is going to make every aspect of your game more efficient.

Was that directed at me? I do yoga (well, just the poses and breathing... none of that meditation hoo-hah) a few times a week, so my flexibility is pretty decent.

Little Nilan 05-04-2010 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noobman (Post 25625933)
So I have a few questions about offseason training... specifically pertaining to amount of rest. If I'm on a weight training program, how many days a week should I be working out? I don't plan to weightlift more than 3x a week (lower body 2x a week, upper body 1x a week), but what do I do in between?

Suppose I do some weightlifting on Monday morning.... primarily for the lower body (hamstring curls, squats, lunges, etc). I'm doing these with the intent of fatiguing my muscles, in order to promote greater strength and muscle growth. Should I be doing any kind of cardio on the same day, or even the next day? Would it be harmful to go for a run on Monday night? Tuesday? How about hitting the ice for a good skate?

Typically I've always worked on cardio and skills all summer during the offseasons (which usually meant 4-6 days a week exercising) but I've found that over the past two years my durability has deteriorated, so I want to focus on strength for the summer. Just weightlifting 3x a week (and some swimming after finishing up w/ the weights) just doesn't seem like enough.

Why don't you try it and see?

But yes, you can do cardio, you can do conditioning and you can practice your skills any time you want. You shouldn't see any difference in your performance in the gym. If you do, do the following, in order until you can progress in the gym:

-Sleep more.
-Eat more.
-Eat more again.
-Reduce intensity of your conditioning work.

What's your weightlifting program for the summer? It would help us understand if you're at risk of hitting a plateau or not. If you're doing bicep curls and leg presses, the chances you lack rest are close to 0. If you're doing 10 sets of 5 reps on the back squat at 70% of your 1 RM as your first of 5 exercises, then you might have a problem.


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