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-   -   Salary Cap: Something that's been bothering me (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=773649)

LarmerAmonteSeabrook 05-08-2010 03:26 AM

Something that's been bothering me
 
Hell yea, our guys are playing very well in the playoffs, and we're almost back to where we were last season. But, it's been bothering me for a long time now with all of these fans of other teams who somehow think that it's a guarantee that we are going to be considerably weaker next year due to "cap concerns." The last time I checked, we have some very good depth in Rockford who can easily learn to fit the NHL mold quickly (Bickell, Dowell, perhaps Lalonde). Plus, we don't know if some UFA guys like Burish might take "hometown discounts" because they just are crazy about playing here and they want the franchise to have enough money to spend elsewhere.

Yea, I know we're probably going to have to lose at least one of Buff, Sharp, or Steeger. But, there IS no "guarantee" that we are going to be weaker...That's why they play the games!

I just wanted to get that off my chest. I'm sure most of you, my fellow Hawks fans, are getting tired of hearing the same things as well.

BlackHawkeye* 05-08-2010 03:54 AM

We will probably be a little weaker next year, but the thing that annoys me is when people think we will have to take less value for anyone we trade due to the cap position. We're still in great shape and the system will be loaded.

KaraLupin 05-08-2010 05:46 AM

I was just about to make this thread, because I was just curious and capgeeked their season for next year... 14 players will be under contract, and....

ROSTER SIZE 14
SALARY CAP $56,800,000
PAYROLL $57,598,002
BONUSES $0
CAP SPACE $-798,002

They have half a roster, and are already 800K over the cap? Am I looking at this wrong? What are they gonna do?

Hawks gotta go all the way this year, cuz they might not get this good of a team for awhile?

Bubba88 05-08-2010 08:40 AM

I'm with you. I can't hear that, too.

Why in hell should we not get value back for Versteeg, Sharp or Buffy? If we were in that bad position, why has Bowman give TKK that contracts? Do most think he just does it without having a plan A, B and C???

We have a good Core and good Depth. We will be contenders for next 5 years.

and I'm pretty sure that Skille or Beach would play NHL already on a Team like Florida or Islanders. (only to name 2)

EbonyRaptor 05-08-2010 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrieresSalary (Post 25697264)
I was just about to make this thread, because I was just curious and capgeeked their season for next year... 14 players will be under contract, and....

ROSTER SIZE 14
SALARY CAP $56,800,000
PAYROLL $57,598,002
BONUSES $0
CAP SPACE $-798,002

They have half a roster, and are already 800K over the cap? Am I looking at this wrong? What are they gonna do?

Hawks gotta go all the way this year, cuz they might not get this good of a team for awhile?

1. Move Huet to AHL (-$5.6M)
2. Trade Sopel for late round draft pick (-$2.3M)
3. Trade 2 of 3 from Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg (~-$6M - $7M)
4. Resign Niemi & Hjalmarsson (~+$4M - $5M)
5. Fill in remaining roster spots with minimum wage players
6. Use the remaining salary cap money on a McDonald's value meal.

IU Hawks fan 05-08-2010 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor (Post 25699463)
1. Move Huet to AHL (-$5.6M)
2. Trade Sopel for late round draft pick (-$2.3M)
3. Trade 2 of 3 from Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg (~-$6M - $7M)
4. Resign Niemi & Hjalmarsson (~+$4M - $5M)
5. Fill in remaining roster spots with minimum wage players
6. Use the remaining salary cap money on a McDonald's value meal.

I would really hope only 1 of them would have to go. Anyway someone takes Campbell's contract? I love him as a player, but he's just not worth $7.1M

Hawker14 05-08-2010 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor (Post 25699463)
1. Move Huet to AHL (-$5.6M)
2. Trade Sopel for late round draft pick (-$2.3M)

I think Huet and Sopel in the AHL (if they can't be moved) are likely scenarios. Neither is essential for the Hawks.

That'll at least free up $8 million or so.

Hawks81 05-08-2010 12:00 PM

I think it's a bit premature to be assuming the 'hawks will be losing guys. The real cap numbers aren't known yet nor is the correct cap hit numbers per player. The NHL salary structure is a combination of the NFL (pro-rated over life of contract) & MLB (guarantee).

I assume that they will be in okay shape considering Bowman gave Toews, Kane & Keith contracts before he had to. Wouldn't you expect him to have a plan in place??

IU Hawks fan 05-08-2010 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawks81 (Post 25699629)
I think it's a bit premature to be assuming the 'hawks will be losing guys. The real cap numbers aren't known yet nor is the correct cap hit numbers per player. The NHL salary structure is a combination of the NFL (pro-rated over life of contract) & MLB (guarantee).

Huh? The cap hits are just the average salary for the length of the deal. All money is guaranteed, is it not?

brtriad 05-08-2010 12:24 PM

We won't be as strong next year because we won't be as deep. Were the deepest team in the league right now and that's our greatest strength. Some of that depth with be forfeittted for youth next year. Although once our new batch of rooks like Dowell, Bickell, Skille, Connolly, and hopefully Beach gain experience, this team is going to be just as dangerous. Also looking 2-3 years down the road when guys like Kruger, Pirri, and Olsen are with the big club, we'll be an even tougher squad than we are now.

There's also a few dark horses like Aliu and Makarov who could turn some heads if they play up to their potential. Factor in the good amount of early draft picks we have the next few years, we're in good shape.

EbonyRaptor 05-08-2010 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brtriad (Post 25699896)
We won't be as strong next year because we won't be as deep. Were the deepest team in the league right now and that's our greatest strength. Some of that depth with be forfeittted for youth next year. Although once our new batch of rooks like Dowell, Bickell, Skille, Connolly, and hopefully Beach gain experience, this team is going to be just as dangerous. Also looking 2-3 years down the road when guys like Kruger, Pirri, and Olsen are with the big club, we'll be an even tougher squad than we are now.

There's also a few dark horses like Aliu and Makarov who could turn some heads if they play up to their potential. Factor in the good amount of early draft picks we have the next few years, we're in good shape.

Don't forget Lalonde and there is a lot of hope for Leddy too. We also have that Smith fellow that won MVP in the Frozen Four this year. Billy Sweatt may still end up being NHL calibre because he has elite speed. Plus - we will probably get some assets that make the big club from trading Sharp/Buf/Versteeg.

Bubba88 05-08-2010 01:43 PM

I've read somewhere, that Sopel may retire after season (no link or anything more).... because of Injury and Hawks have an office Job for him.

Is this true or just BS??

brtriad 05-08-2010 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor (Post 25700503)
Don't forget Lalonde and there is a lot of hope for Leddy too. We also have that Smith fellow that won MVP in the Frozen Four this year. Billy Sweatt may still end up being NHL calibre because he has elite speed. Plus - we will probably get some assets that make the big club from trading Sharp/Buf/Versteeg.

I forgot about Lalonde. He looked lackluster in his brief stint with Rockford but hopefully with some seasoning he can round out his defensive game. Leddy is definetly a project at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see him spend all four years at Minnesota then spend some time in the A. Luckily our defensive pipeline is so stacked that we have the luxury of doing so.

Teemu 05-08-2010 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba88 (Post 25700790)
I've read somewhere, that Sopel may retire after season (no link or anything more).... because of Injury and Hawks have an office Job for him.

Is this true or just BS??

No idea. But if so, we need an "office job" for Huet as well. NHL-France relations? :D

HawksFan37 05-08-2010 04:29 PM

I go through a long winded discussion on the cap at my blog: http://gusandraftery.blogspot.com/. In the third part I illustrate how a Huet to Rockford buyout may be key. But the Coles notes version I have is this..

1) Assume the cap is $57.7M
2) Assume Sopel is rid of (retire, traded, Rock)
3) Assume Huet is in the AHL (the big leap and most questionable assumption)

I wrote that before the playoffs so I'm going to add...
4) Sharp moves to C permanently
5) Niemi and Hammer might get more than $4M combined

Given that...

Buff (3M)-Toews (6.3M)-Kane (6.3M)
Pecker (1.2M) - Sharp (3.9M)- Hossa (5.25M)
Ladd (1.9M) - Bolland (3.4M)- Brouwer (1.03M)
Bickell (0.525M)- Dowell (0.525M) - Skille (0.85M)
Burish (0.75M)

Forwards total: $34.9M

Keith (5.54M) – Seabrook (3.5M)
Campbell (7.14M) – Hjalmarsson (2.0M)
Lalonde (0.6M) – Hendry (0.6M)

Defence total: $19.4M

Niemi (2.0M)
Crawford (0.9M)

Goalie total (2.9M)

Total $57.2M (0.5M to spare)

So it's not completely impossible to only have to trade 1 of Buff or Versteeg. And I do recognize that my assumptions might be slight reaches and the reality may dicate both are gone, or maybe Ladd goes instead. Also, instead of carrying a 13th F, you might want to use that money to upgrade the 3rd D pair.

Are there issues? Of course. Is it as dire as other teams fans make it out to be? Perhaps, but there are always solutions to any problem.

Apologies if this should have been in the Apocolypse thread. Feel free to move it there if you choose mods.

IU Hawks fan 05-08-2010 05:20 PM

Yeah, looking at that makes me really want Campbell gone. Not that I think that team is bad, just think so much more could be done with that 7 mil.

xicethug13x 05-08-2010 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawksFan37 (Post 25702764)
I go through a long winded discussion on the cap at my blog: http://gusandraftery.blogspot.com/. In the third part I illustrate how a Huet to Rockford buyout may be key. But the Coles notes version I have is this..

1) Assume the cap is $57.7M
2) Assume Sopel is rid of (retire, traded, Rock)
3) Assume Huet is in the AHL (the big leap and most questionable assumption)

I wrote that before the playoffs so I'm going to add...
4) Sharp moves to C permanently
5) Niemi and Hammer might get more than $4M combined

Given that...

Buff (3M)-Toews (6.3M)-Kane (6.3M)
Pecker (1.2M) - Sharp (3.9M)- Hossa (5.25M)
Ladd (1.9M) - Bolland (3.4M)- Brouwer (1.03M)
Bickell (0.525M)- Dowell (0.525M) - Skille (0.85M)
Burish (0.75M)

Forwards total: $34.9M

Keith (5.54M) – Seabrook (3.5M)
Campbell (7.14M) – Hjalmarsson (2.0M)
Lalonde (0.6M) – Hendry (0.6M)

Defence total: $19.4M

Niemi (2.0M)
Crawford (0.9M)

Goalie total (2.9M)

Total $57.2M (0.5M to spare)

So it's not completely impossible to only have to trade 1 of Buff or Versteeg. And I do recognize that my assumptions might be slight reaches and the reality may dicate both are gone, or maybe Ladd goes instead. Also, instead of carrying a 13th F, you might want to use that money to upgrade the 3rd D pair.

Are there issues? Of course. Is it as dire as other teams fans make it out to be? Perhaps, but there are always solutions to any problem.

Apologies if this should have been in the Apocolypse thread. Feel free to move it there if you choose mods.

wow i put together basically the same lineup except ive got connelly in instead of lalonde,,,,,and kopecky instead of skille....i dont think skille belongs on 4th line if so keep him in minors or trade him....and kopecky realy grew on me and i like him for the 4th line...also ive got beach in the lineup in a top 6 role ....i think this team would be better than our current team....nice job....mine would lokk like this

buffy-toews-kane
beach-sharp-hossa
ladd-bolland-brouwer
bickell-dowell-kopecky

keith-seabs
campbell-hjalmarson
connelly-hendry

niemi
crawford


also i would liek to aquire dubinsky to be 3rd line center in place of bolland and hes only 1.85 cap hit so we'd save 1.525 mil by doing that and upgrade....even though i really liek bolland his back worrys me alote

KaraLupin 05-08-2010 08:39 PM

Niemi is gonna have to take a paycut, he is at least worth 3.5.... Don't you guys think?

xicethug13x 05-08-2010 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrieresSalary (Post 25706961)
Niemi is gonna have to take a paycut, he is at least worth 3.5.... Don't you guys think?

no....based on what other young goalies that are starters or expected starters and have similar #'s to niemi....so basically same or very similar situation ...have recently signed for i think he will cost 2mil per tops...and i think something around 1.5-1.75 is very reasonable and likely...heres why

rask-1.25 x 2yrs
quick-1.8 x 3yrs
gustavson 1.35 x 2yrs
anderson 1.75 x 2 or 3 yrs im not sure on his length

i think those are 4 very good comparables for niemi's deal....niemi and them are all around same age....all are signing 2nd deal except anderson....and all had similar #'s to niemi....so i see niemi falling somewhere in that range

Bubba88 05-09-2010 01:38 AM

but those Goalies haven't reached the WCSemis/or more before they signed the Deal.

I expect him somewhere near 2.2 Mio a year for 3 years or 1.9 Mio a year for 2 years

Blue Liner 05-09-2010 02:24 AM

To the point of the OP, this is a battle I gave up a long time ago. Now matter times you point this stuff out and no matter how many facts you throw at people, new people will always come along and write off the Hawks as a "this is their only chance to win" team. It's just pure ignorance and isn't worth even fighting anymore. People who say that obviously don't know anything about the organization past what they watch on Versus every other night. People used to say the same thing about Detroit every season and continue to and they said the same about Pittsburgh. Both of those organizations have proven how to remain a contending team even in the salary cap era with a high-priced core locked into place. Let people think what they want and it'll just make it all the more fun next season to watch all of them be wrong. Simple as that. They will likely take a bit of a step back, unless some of the rooks really come in and take storm. But this team even at a "step back" is as strong if not stronger than most teams in the league.

JuniorNelson 05-11-2010 06:14 AM

The Hawks will be okay. The cap won't cause major disruptions. Bowman is good. Look at NJ, cap considerations never hamper them.

AmericanDream 05-11-2010 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawksFan37 (Post 25702764)
I go through a long winded discussion on the cap at my blog: http://gusandraftery.blogspot.com/. In the third part I illustrate how a Huet to Rockford buyout may be key. But the Coles notes version I have is this..

1) Assume the cap is $57.7M
2) Assume Sopel is rid of (retire, traded, Rock)
3) Assume Huet is in the AHL (the big leap and most questionable assumption)

I wrote that before the playoffs so I'm going to add...
4) Sharp moves to C permanently
5) Niemi and Hammer might get more than $4M combined

Given that...

Buff (3M)-Toews (6.3M)-Kane (6.3M)
Pecker (1.2M) - Sharp (3.9M)- Hossa (5.25M)
Ladd (1.9M) - Bolland (3.4M)- Brouwer (1.03M)
Bickell (0.525M)- Dowell (0.525M) - Skille (0.85M)
Burish (0.75M)

Forwards total: $34.9M

Keith (5.54M) ? Seabrook (3.5M)
Campbell (7.14M) ? Hjalmarsson (2.0M)
Lalonde (0.6M) ? Hendry (0.6M)

Defence total: $19.4M

Niemi (2.0M)
Crawford (0.9M)

Goalie total (2.9M)

Total $57.2M (0.5M to spare)

So it's not completely impossible to only have to trade 1 of Buff or Versteeg. And I do recognize that my assumptions might be slight reaches and the reality may dicate both are gone, or maybe Ladd goes instead. Also, instead of carrying a 13th F, you might want to use that money to upgrade the 3rd D pair.

Are there issues? Of course. Is it as dire as other teams fans make it out to be? Perhaps, but there are always solutions to any problem.

Apologies if this should have been in the Apocolypse thread. Feel free to move it there if you choose mods.

I like what you have done here, and how you have shown that this team really isnt going to look that terrible.

I agree that the big two problems are Sopel and Huet. I am sure somehow we can get rid of both of them in any type of manner, so those two players are the key.

Also, Andrew Ladd is gone. No way he sticks around. He is a bottom 6 forward that can be replaced by Beach imo. Save the nearly $2 mil by letting him go. We have Beach, Bickell, and Brouwer who all can play the same style...need to give these kids a chance at a fraction of the cost.

I agree that maybe only one of Sharp, Versteeg, or Buff needs to be moved. I firmly think it will be Versteeg as he is too inconsistent at times, and plays the perimiter a lot. Buff is WAYYYYY to valuable with the role he plays...defense, offense, power forward, grinder, whatever...the guy needs to be kept just for the playoffs alone.

Sharp could be a player moved as well....the guy makes a good amount of money, and would help land a pretty nice young top 6 player down the road, or maybe even a first round pick in the right package. Though I dont want to lose Sharp, I think we could survive without him and Versteeg if we need to.

Burish will need to give a hometown discount to stay here...though his raise really wouldnt be that much on the open market imo.

I think projecting Lalonde into our top 6 is very generous...this kid is going to need some AHL seasoning no doubt. The job goes to Connelly at this point, so the financials are very similar for the two players.

If Kopecky is in our top 6, then we are truly screwed!! In all honesty, that dude has hands of stone...and I aint talking about the great wrastler' Ronnie Garvin. Kopecky makes some serious money for his little production, so dont be shocked if he gets moved as well.

Bottom line is next year wont be armageddon. I think it is overblown with fears towards our salary cap. Look how many teams are in similar situations? There are at least 7-9 teams that are going to have to sell next year...not sure who all these buyers are going to be.

Is our team going to look different next year? Ofcourse, but it will look different in the way the Pens look these past few years. Still ultra skilled with top end talent, and the rest are filled in with young up and comers, and competitive players that can fit our system.

Here is waht I project for next year

Goalie

Niemi
Crawford

Defense

Keith
Seabrook
Campbell
Hammer
Hendry
Connelly
Richmond----yes, the same Danny Richmond....unless Lalonde really shines, he may be the best bet we have..

Offense

Kane
Toews
Hossa
Sharp
Byfuglien
Skille
Beach
Bolland
Brouwer
Burish
Bickell
Dowell
Kopecky

w/ Fraser, Aliu, and Sweatt as first call ups



Lines

Keith, Seabrook
Campbell, Hammer
Hendry, Connelly
Richmond

Byfuglien, Toews, Kane
Beach, Sharp, Hossa
Skille, Bolland, Brouwer
Bickell, Dowell, Kopecky
Burish

Niemi
Crawford

this is ofcourse assuming we dont trade for any cheap NHL talent in return, and that we will be filling all our spots from within. I still feel this team will be able to add at least a body or two from the outside instead of going with all this youth...as long as we lose Huet, Sopel, Ladd, Versteeg, and maybe Kopecky as well...that is a nearly $15 mil in salary for this group of players....

either way, we will be just as young as this season, but just as competitive as well....

cant wait to see Beach and Skille get full time duty next year...should be exciting.

hawksfan50 05-11-2010 01:21 PM

A lot depends on HOW the HUET contract is handled...

OPtions:

1. Trade him. This assumes some team wants a $5.625 million cap hit/yr for 2 more years AND that they want him as their goalie--that is 2 big IFS...

2. Buy him out ... Spread the cap hit of half his contract over the next 4 yrs...
THat means $5.625million / 4= $1.40625million cap cost for a non-roster spot for the next 4 years AND saves $5.625m -$1.40625m = $ 4.21875 million for each of the next 2 yrs in NET cap savings ..IF you add in Verstteg+BUF's cap hit that is
just under $10.3 million in cap savings..Whether that is sufficient to keep SHARP or BOLLAND is the question...If they could trade Sopel it might be...

3. ROCKY eats HUET's contract (plays in Rockford or is lent to a euroclub while Rocky pays his salary)..that is asking Rocky to pay a total of $ 11.25 million FOR NOTHING ...It would save $5.625 million in cap space per year for 2 years withy no further extended cap costs after that..
That probably does save SHARP or Bolland from also having to go ..


IF option #1 is prefered: THEN in that scenario we probably do have to take less than trade value for other assets put in the deal (Versteeg and /or Buf) to entice the other team to help us by taking Huet off our hands...SO IF a team is willing and able to do us that favour they probably insist we get very little back for Versteeg and or Buf) ---eg. all 3 for a mere 7th rounder (but they solve our cap problem in one swoop).


IF option #2 or #3 are preferred THEN we can trade Versteeg and BUF individually or as a combo or in combo with other asets /picks to get back proper value in picks and pick spots...

Rob Zepp 05-11-2010 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuniorNelson (Post 25746537)
The Hawks will be okay. The cap won't cause major disruptions. Bowman is good. Look at NJ, cap considerations never hamper them.

This is word for word what they said in Calgary last summer.


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