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Sasha Cares 06-02-2010 04:30 PM

Team imposed cap?
 
PK says we're cutting payroll by about 25%

That's $40.5 mil. We are ****ed!!!!! You can't have two huge contracts and play $10-11 mil under the cap... All this to help sell the team... **** the fans huh?

Boom Boom Anton 06-02-2010 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT (Post 26103564)
PK says we're cutting payroll by about 25%

That's $40.5 mil. We are ****ed!!!!! You can't have two huge contracts and play $10-11 mil under the cap... All this to help sell the team... **** the fans huh?

Well..on the flipside, we are all clamoring for JR and PK to make room for the young players on the roster. This would be right in line with that as the young players will definitely bring the salaries down.

I expect it will be a tough year this season..but thinking about 2 seasons from now when even more salaries are off the books, the young players have had another year to develop, etc... it could line up to be a solid roster for years to come. (one only hopes).

Sasha Cares 06-02-2010 05:09 PM

I don't want to have another season of playoff less hockey... Hell I wish we would have had this cap last year, then no Award or Cole... I'f I'm not mistaken, we are already over that cap with just 17 players... That means someone is getting dumped and there will be no FA signed outside Manny and Babs... I think that means Osala, Tlusty, Bowman, Boychuk, McBain, and maybe even Samson make the roster


Ruutu-Staal-Jussi
Boychuk-Sutter-Cole
Tlusty-Dwyer-LaRose
Sammy-Brindy-Bowman

Pit-McB
Gleason-Babs
Carson-Harrison

Ward
Manny

I think that is already over our cap right there... Am I missing someone?

Chrispy 06-02-2010 05:10 PM

15 players are already at $40 million, so I don't see that happening. Even if Samsonov is bought out and costs $2 million less next season, I don't see them staying under $41 million.

No free agent signings, but I think we were confident of that already.

Edit: buying out Sammy and paying him $900K and Kaberle $700K puts the squad at roughly $39.5 million with Boychuk and McBain on the roster. That's for 16 players.

Boom Boom Anton 06-02-2010 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT (Post 26104188)
I don't want to have another season of playoff less hockey... Hell I wish we would have had this cap last year, then no Award or Cole... I'f I'm not mistaken, we are already over that cap with just 17 players... That means someone is getting dumped and there will be no FA signed outside Manny and Babs... I think that means Osala, Tlusty, Bowman, Boychuk, McBain, and maybe even Samson make the roster

JR has already said that he won't be active in the FA market, so that is not a surprise and I do expect more youth based on his comments.

Quote:

"We're still working through that," Rutherford said. "We have decisions to make on Sergei, Ray and Roddy (Brind'Amour)."

Rutherford said nothing yet had been decided on offering contracts to goaltender Manny Legace or defenseman Brian Pothier. Both will be unrestricted free agents.

Rutherford said the Canes "definitely will not be active on the free-agent market" come July 1.

"We want to give our younger players opportunities to play," he said, although noting he would not completely rule out signing a free agent.
Trust me, I understand about not wanting to miss out on playoff hockey..but personally, I'd rather miss next year IF if meant that in 2 years the team would have a roster that would allow them to compete and make the playoffs year in and year out (vs. the inconsistency we have now).

faulkingdynamic 06-02-2010 08:03 PM

If this is the case then there is absolutely no point in resigning Ray. Play the kids at forward and resign Pothier. Having Ray as secondary scoring is worthless without another vet on the backend.

This decision will also guarantee that the team will lose money next year. They wont make the playoffs and ticket sales will be way down and likely nonexistant thru football season especially with a poor team. I can assure you i wont be forking out season ticket money to see this team. And the buyouts will take a chunk out of the next seasons payroll. This is starting to look really bad. PK has no idea how to run a pro sports franchise. And if things continue to get run this way, they will have no choice but to deal Staal once his contract hits the 8.5 million. They wont even be able to field a competitive team in 2 years. Ward and Staal will use 15-16 million by themselves. Maybe we will see a complete rebuild by 2012(i would expect JR to quit or be fired if this is the case)

Vagrant 06-02-2010 08:09 PM

Karmanos always sets a floor and then goes higher. It shouldn't be any different than every other year when we eclipsed our bottom line budget by several million in order to field a decent team. PK hates losing too much to have a lame duck season. But the truth is that we REALLY have to find out what we have in those young players. Cost cutting from that point is only the next logical step to clear the path for them.

knucklehead3k 06-02-2010 08:38 PM

i like going the youth movement route.
honestly, last year, we played better when we went with the kids.
more energy and fire was nice to see.
dump rod. dump sammy. dump cole, if possible.
i also agree that resigning whitney - other than at a deep discount - makes no sense either.
also, why does no one think peters would be a viable backup over manny.
i liked what legace brought, but if we're going with the youth, lets look between the pipes too.

Seth Lake 06-02-2010 08:54 PM

Quick little glimmer of hope...if the salary cap goes up by $2 million as Bettman said on the radio last week...the floor would be $42.8 million.

Personally, I liked what I saw from the youth brought up last season. Obviously playing a full season is different and will come with more growing pains, but...it does set you up nicely to rebuild a solid core of homegrown players and then become aggressive in a year or two to plug some holes and build towards another Cup run...

DaveG 06-02-2010 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLake (Post 26108351)
Quick little glimmer of hope...if the salary cap goes up by $2 million as Bettman said on the radio last week...the floor would be $42.8 million.

Personally, I liked what I saw from the youth brought up last season. Obviously playing a full season is different and will come with more growing pains, but...it does set you up nicely to rebuild a solid core of homegrown players and then become aggressive in a year or two to plug some holes and build towards another Cup run...

Bingo. I've had this line of thought for a while. We have a good core of kids (could use another young Dman and a RW probably) and it's not really a coincidence that the team did much better when they were up here. Rebuild for a year, let contracts such as Brind'Amour, Samsonov and Cole come off the books to free up a solid 10 million in cap space that can be better spent elsewhere.

ChuckW 06-02-2010 09:59 PM

Let's can the doom and gloom for awhile. Not signing a big FA could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Let's not panic quite yet.

Boom Boom Anton 06-03-2010 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveG (Post 26108720)
Bingo. I've had this line of thought for a while. We have a good core of kids (could use another young Dman and a RW probably) and it's not really a coincidence that the team did much better when they were up here. Rebuild for a year, let contracts such as Brind'Amour, Samsonov and Cole come off the books to free up a solid 10 million in cap space that can be better spent elsewhere.

This is my thinking exactly and I've been of this opinion for a while. Spend this year seeing what kind of players the youth will be...then next year figure out which of the young players will be solid contributors and fill the remaining holes through trades/uFAs.

Boom Boom Anton 06-03-2010 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerodynamic (Post 26106910)
If this is the case then there is absolutely no point in resigning Ray. Play the kids at forward and resign Pothier. Having Ray as secondary scoring is worthless without another vet on the backend.

This decision will also guarantee that the team will lose money next year. They wont make the playoffs and ticket sales will be way down and likely nonexistant thru football season especially with a poor team. I can assure you i wont be forking out season ticket money to see this team. And the buyouts will take a chunk out of the next seasons payroll. This is starting to look really bad. PK has no idea how to run a pro sports franchise. And if things continue to get run this way, they will have no choice but to deal Staal once his contract hits the 8.5 million. They wont even be able to field a competitive team in 2 years. Ward and Staal will use 15-16 million by themselves. Maybe we will see a complete rebuild by 2012(i would expect JR to quit or be fired if this is the case)

I understand what you are saying, but don't fully agree.

1) Re-signing Whitney was always a 50/50 proposition even without this comment from Karmanos. Heck...it seems like half the people on this board don't want him signed at any price.
2) The Canes were never going to be able to make a big splash this year in FA with the Cole, Brindy and Samsonov contracts still out there.
3) JR has said since the beginning of last season that this year would be a transition year where a lot of youth is brought in.
4) The team performed better and was MORE FUN to watch IMO when many of the kids were up. They stunk it up when all the "vets" were in the line-up.

I think all this means is that JR is going to do everything he can to figure out how to get Samsonov and BrindAmour off the books...and unless it is at a bargain rate, he won't be re-signing Whitney or Pothier.

That's not really too surprising to me.

faulkingdynamic 06-03-2010 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncpuckhog (Post 26113597)
4) The team performed better and was MORE FUN to watch IMO when many of the kids were up. They stunk it up when all the "vets" were in the line-up.
.

Its a far different situation when the kids are playing fill-in roles on a team with no pressure to win. Its totally different when the kids are penciled in and playing from the beginning of the season when there is still everything to play for. Ask Florida fans how much late season stretches of good hockey, with young guys, is worth for the next season.

I really hope your right and im wrong but i think we are looking at another top 5 pick if the defense is backfilled with Babchuk, Harrison, and Picard...and the Canes fill the 3rd line center role from within. Those faceoff numbers wont be pretty, unless Staal has some sort of epiphany.

Boom Boom Anton 06-03-2010 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerodynamic (Post 26113912)
Its a far different situation when the kids are playing fill-in roles on a team with no pressure to win. Its totally different when the kids are penciled in and playing from the beginning of the season when there is still everything to play for. Ask Florida fans how much late season stretches of good hockey, with young guys, is worth for the next season.

That's a valid point..and I'm not naive enough to think that there won't be some hiccups and rough stretches for these kids who have never played a full 82 games. In fact, I would be surprised if a team filled with kids makes the playoffs, but that was going to be the case this season no matter what. JR has repeatedly said this was a year of transition (even at the start of last season). These "reduced salary/internal cap" comments don't change that IMO.

I would be surprised though if the most of the kids didn't give 100% effort every night as they know this is their chance. The same can't be said for many of our veterans last year and to me, that makes it a fun team to watch (win or lose). The only game I have ever walked out of my entire life was this years early game against Montreal where the team just didn't seem to care (other than Sutter and a few others). That's the sort of hockey that I can't stand. I'll gladly buy tickets if the team is giving 100% even if they aren't winning every game.

Quote:

I really hope your right and im wrong but i think we are looking at another top 5 pick if the defense is backfilled with Babchuk, Harrison, and Picard...and the Canes fill the 3rd line center role from within. Those faceoff numbers wont be pretty, unless Staal has some sort of epiphany.
We're kind of damned if we do, damned if we don't on the center front though. Right now we have Staal and Sutter penciled in as #1 and #2. If JR goes out and signs a vet to fill the 3rd line role, this board will crucify him unless it is a 1 year deal (as 2 years from now we'd be complaining about another vet keeping Dalpe or someone else down). And if JR is able to sign a guy for 1 year, he won't be that great of a player anyhow (or he'd command more money/term) so that really doesn't solve anything.

On defense, I agree though. I'd prefer to see the Canes get a true top 4 guys somewhere..but I don't see that happening so I'd really like to see Pothier back. One (or both) of either Gleason or Pitkanen will get injured this year. Pothier is a guy who can fill many roles on defense for a short stint.

Sasha Cares 06-03-2010 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveG (Post 26108720)
Bingo. I've had this line of thought for a while. We have a good core of kids (could use another young Dman and a RW probably) and it's not really a coincidence that the team did much better when they were up here. Rebuild for a year, let contracts such as Brind'Amour, Samsonov and Cole come off the books to free up a solid 10 million in cap space that can be better spent elsewhere.

I agree with the youth... But it's obvious we won't sign Pothier or one top 6 guy... I'd like to see a youth movement (Harrison is making puke) but I think if we miss the playoffs again, it would be devastating... Does PK not remember what missing the playoffs two years in a row does to ticket sales and local energy?

Let's see what youth can do, but give them one F FA to help and one D FA to help. That's all I'm saying

Chrispy 06-03-2010 08:10 AM

I think it depends on the third line center. A 2 year deal for someone who could fill the 4th line role in 11-12 would make sense, although that 4th line center could also be Dwyer in 11-12.

One candidate could be Manny Malhotra. He wanted a top 9 job last year and waited out free agency before signing a cheap one-year deal with San Jose as a 4th line center. He reportedly turned down a $2 million deal with Atlanta, so he probably prices himself out of Carolina's range, but a 1-year deal as a third line center may be just what he's looking for.

I agree about Pothier as well. I think a 7 man roster with Pothier, Carson, Babchuk, and the 4 signed defensemen can work. Drop Pothier and go cheap (Picard, Borer, Rodney) and the position looks really thin. I'd love the idea of moving Samsonov for an defenseman of equivalent salary as a mutual salary dump, but I wonder what team would make such a deal and who the Canes would end up receiving. Great in theory, but is there a partner for such a move?

I still think Brind'Amour comes back. They will market this as his final season to help drive ticket sales.

Boom Boom Anton 06-03-2010 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrispy (Post 26114187)
I think it depends on the third line center. A 2 year deal for someone who could fill the 4th line role in 11-12 would make sense, although that 4th line center could also be Dwyer in 11-12.

True..I just think it will be very difficult to find a player of that caliber (that can HELP next year as a 3rd liner, but be relegated to the 4th line in 11-12) at the right price.

Quote:

One candidate could be Manny Malhotra. He wanted a top 9 job last year and waited out free agency before signing a cheap one-year deal with San Jose as a 4th line center. He reportedly turned down a $2 million deal with Atlanta, so he probably prices himself out of Carolina's range, but a 1-year deal as a third line center may be just what he's looking for.
I agree, but I think after this year though, Manny will be higher in demand and the demand/price will be too steep. If we could find someone like that though..I'd have no problem with it.

Quote:

I agree about Pothier as well. I think a 7 man roster with Pothier, Carson, Babchuk, and the 4 signed defensemen can work. Drop Pothier and go cheap (Picard, Borer, Rodney) and the position looks really thin.
Yep...without Pothier (or someone else)..it get's a little scary especially when an injury occurs.

Chrispy 06-03-2010 09:01 AM

In briefly looking around for candidates for a salary dump swap, there aren't many.

Bieksa, Vancouver. 3.5 million (3.75 cap number) for 1 year. High risk and would likely require more than Samsonov in return.

Finger, Toronto. 3.5 million per year for 2 more years. The poster boy for a bad signing, 2 more years of that salary is too much.

Rozsival, Rangers. 4 million, 3 million (5 cap hit.) Good news is that his salary goes down over 2 years, but it's still a 2 year commitment. Also, is he the type of defenseman this group needs?

Liles, Avalanche. 4.425 million, 4.55 million (4.2 cap hit.) A player Rutherford was rumored to be interested in in the past, Liles is likely too expensive to add to this team both in payroll and in additional pieces needed to acquire him. Even more so than Rozsival, not really what the team needs on D.

Preissing, Avalanche. 2.75 million. Same price as Samsonov and a buyout or AHL candidate for Colorado. Is this a better option than picking up another cheap defenseman? Given he spent all of last season in the AHL, I'm not sure.

Are any of these candidates better than buying out Samsonov? I'm honestly not sure. I think Bieksa would be the best option.

tarheelhockey 06-03-2010 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerodynamic (Post 26106910)
This decision will also guarantee that the team will lose money next year. They wont make the playoffs and ticket sales will be way down and likely nonexistant thru football season especially with a poor team.

If the team wasn't going to be playoff-caliber anyway, I don't see how it would hurt the bottom line to cut salary.

And if, through some Colorado-esque fluke of history, the team stays in competition with a younger lineup, there are significant financial benefits to these moves. Not to mention season ticket sales should be somewhat bouyed this season by the ASG.



Quote:

And if things continue to get run this way, they will have no choice but to deal Staal once his contract hits the 8.5 million. They wont even be able to field a competitive team in 2 years.
IMO it's way, way too early for this kind of panic. 2 years down the line we will have developed a completely different team than what we have now. Staal and Ward will be squarely in their primes, Sutter will be a multi-year pro, guys like McBain and Boychuk will have come along. For all we know, by that point we'll be back in the playoffs and looking at UFAs again.

Sasha Cares 06-03-2010 09:29 AM

The only thing I can hope is that the team some how, not sure how, remains competitive to the trade deadline and this salary floor based team is able to add a contract or two to make the playoffs. Honestly, that is the only chance a $41 million team would have a good shot.

faulkingdynamic 06-03-2010 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey (Post 26114852)
IMO it's way, way too early for this kind of panic. 2 years down the line we will have developed a completely different team than what we have now. Staal and Ward will be squarely in their primes, Sutter will be a multi-year pro, guys like McBain and Boychuk will have come along. For all we know, by that point we'll be back in the playoffs and looking at UFAs again.

The point was that with those 2 guys making all that money PK wont have the option of spending near the floor and maintaining a competitive team. He will have no choice but to spend 50+ every season. And by 2012 Sutter, Osala, McBain, Boychuk, and Bowman will all be on new deals along with Gleason and Joni who will be due raises. And there arent any Dmen in the pipe that could take over for Timmy or Joni. As long as PK is willing to spend closer to the cap starting in 2012 and beyond then there wont be a problem. But if he loses money the next 2 seasons, which they will without the playoffs, will he really be willing to have the self imposed floor be near 50?...if the answer is no then he either deals with losing or trades a big contract.

tarheelhockey 06-03-2010 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerodynamic (Post 26116000)
The point was that with those 2 guys making all that money PK wont have the option of spending near the floor and maintaining a competitive team. He will have no choice but to spend 50+ every season. And by 2012 Sutter, Osala, McBain, Boychuk, and Bowman will all be on new deals along with Gleason and Joni who will be due raises. And there arent any Dmen in the pipe that could take over for Timmy or Joni. As long as PK is willing to spend closer to the cap starting in 2012 and beyond then there wont be a problem. But if he loses money the next 2 seasons, which they will without the playoffs, will he really be willing to have the self imposed floor be near 50?...if the answer is no then he either deals with losing or trades a big contract.

It's a calculated risk that has to be taken in order to rebuild. They aren't going to grow into a contender without stripping away salary first -- there's just too much dead weight and not enough incoming talent. To fix that, Karmanos has to accept the probability of non-playoff seasons.

I doubt very much that the team will be spending near the cap floor in 3 years. If that happens, it means the rebuild was fruitless and our prospects turned out to be duds (Florida). More likely, we'll add a couple of high draft picks, develop the young guys and start to look more like a playoff team... then it will be time to think about adding salary (LA).

Boom Boom Anton 06-03-2010 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey (Post 26116194)
It's a calculated risk that has to be taken in order to rebuild. They aren't going to grow into a contender without stripping away salary first -- there's just too much dead weight and not enough incoming talent. To fix that, Karmanos has to accept the probability of non-playoff seasons.

I doubt very much that the team will be spending near the cap floor in 3 years. If that happens, it means the rebuild was fruitless and our prospects turned out to be duds (Florida). More likely, we'll add a couple of high draft picks, develop the young guys and start to look more like a playoff team... then it will be time to think about adding salary (LA).

I agree. One thing PK has shown is that if he thinks the team is competitive and has a chance to go deep, he's willing to spend the money.

totalkev 06-03-2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT (Post 26114967)
The only thing I can hope is that the team some how, not sure how, remains competitive to the trade deadline and this salary floor based team is able to add a contract or two to make the playoffs. Honestly, that is the only chance a $41 million team would have a good shot.

Honestly, I don't get all the talk about salary. The only thing making us more than a $41 million spending team right now is $3 million wasted for Brindy, $3 million wasted on Cole and $2.8 million wasted on Samsonov. If a higher payroll means more wins, then why are we complaining about those three guys. We should keep them around so we can spend $50 million instead of $41 million, right?


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