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nyrfuture 05-18-2004 11:53 AM

Next Season
 
ONCE AGAIN the rangers will most likely miss the playoffs. Which means Jagr won't be a ranger come trade deadline. I will guarantee that when trade deadline comes around and Jagr pushes the 35-40 goal mark, Sather will be able to get a first rounder and more for him. Dunham, Poti, and Holik should all raise their stock for prized prospects and picks. I don't think these three will be able to net first rounders, but will likely be able to gain some more prospects to go deeper into the rebuilding mode. If Sather is serious at even making an attempt he should trade these four but I don't know about Holik with his contract. I would take anything for Holik at this point even though he was our best player last year. He wants to be on a winning team. Meanwhile Dunham never has. Poti is still sort of young and should able to gain old form. It would be sweet to have two first rounders next year too. I vote yes to trade Jagr even though he has played great here, but he is still good. Let him be a mentor for the youngster up until the trade deadline.

I really dont know about bringing back Simon, Barnaby, and Rucinsky. Yeah they're good but they aren't young. I would bring back either Simon or Barnaby to give some fight to the garden and maybe 10-15 goals apiece, but thats about it.

As for coaching I really like Martin or McGill. Mcgill more because he knows our young players and has gotten far with them. Plus good coaches have to be brought up somehow. If not, Martin did a great job with the youngsters in Ottawa. He could do the same here. I really don't want Quenville. He did good with vets.

comments, opinions :banana:

True Blue 05-18-2004 12:04 PM

1. Dunham & Poti do not have that much value
2. How can you say that Jagr will be traded, but Holik may not be becuase of his contract? Jagr makes $11m. That's $2m more than Holik. Niether player is going anywhere.
3. To think that Jackass will field a team full of nothing but the above 4 players and all rookies is folly and completely unrealistic.

Slewfoot 05-18-2004 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfuture
ONCE AGAIN the rangers will most likely miss the playoffs. Which means Jagr won't be a ranger come trade deadline. I will guarantee that when trade deadline comes around and Jagr pushes the 35-40 goal mark, Sather will be able to get a first rounder and more for him. Dunham, Poti, and Holik should all raise their stock for prized prospects and picks. I don't think these three will be able to net first rounders, but will likely be able to gain some more prospects to go deeper into the rebuilding mode. If Sather is serious at even making an attempt he should trade these four but I don't know about Holik with his contract. I would take anything for Holik at this point even though he was our best player last year. He wants to be on a winning team. Meanwhile Dunham never has. Poti is still sort of young and should able to gain old form. It would be sweet to have two first rounders next year too. I vote yes to trade Jagr even though he has played great here, but he is still good. Let him be a mentor for the youngster up until the trade deadline.

I really dont know about bringing back Simon, Barnaby, and Rucinsky. Yeah they're good but they aren't young. I would bring back either Simon or Barnaby to give some fight to the garden and maybe 10-15 goals apiece, but thats about it.

As for coaching I really like Martin or McGill. Mcgill more because he knows our young players and has gotten far with them. Plus good coaches have to be brought up somehow. If not, Martin did a great job with the youngsters in Ottawa. He could do the same here. I really don't want Quenville. He did good with vets.

comments, opinions :banana:

Call me crazy but I am not ready to write off making the playoffs next year already.
If it was as simple as evaluating the talent of a team on paper , the Rangers would not have missed the playoffs for 7 years straight and teams like the Wild , Ducks , Flames , etc. would not have made serious runs at the cup. Each of the past few years there have been teams with pre-season rosters that most of us wouldn't have predicted much success. I am not saying the Rangers will be a powerhouse , but I also can't say they will be horrible. I think in the current NHL , teams that compete hard every night and play a smart defensive game have a 'real' chance to succeed.

True Blue 05-18-2004 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slewfoot
I think in the current NHL , teams that compete hard every night and play a smart defensive game have a 'real' chance to succeed.

Yes, but there's a little more to it than that. It required 90+ points to make the playoffs as the 8th seed this year. ANY team that gets 90+ points has had a pretty good year. Are you ready to say that the Rangers will be such a team next year?

Slewfoot 05-18-2004 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Yes, but there's a little more to it than that. It required 90+ points to make the playoffs as the 8th seed this year. ANY team that gets 90+ points has had a pretty good year. Are you ready to say that the Rangers will be such a team next year?

Put it this way , I wouldn't bet on the Rangers getting 90+ points.
that being said , I wouldn't have thought that Montreal + the Islanders would have had 93 + 91 points or Calgary + Nashville would have had 94 + 91 points either.
I am just saying that IMO it is not as easy to predict successful teams based solely on the roster on paper as it used to be. In the past the formula was that the team with the 'best' players won. The game has changed.

nyrfuture 05-18-2004 12:21 PM

Money will be an issue yes, but teams like detroit, and colorado have the money. Plus the rangers can pay some like washington did with us. The rangers can just buy out holik. So they're you go. :yo:

Bluenote13 05-18-2004 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfuture
Money will be an issue yes, but teams like detroit, and colorado have the money. Plus the rangers can pay some like washington did with us. The rangers can just buy out holik. So they're you go. :yo:

Even those teams will tighten the reigns after the lockout.

Jagr is here to stay.

True Blue 05-18-2004 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slewfoot
that being said , I wouldn't have thought that Montreal + the Islanders would have had 93 + 91 points or Calgary + Nashville would have had 94 + 91 points either.

Montreal has Theodore, the Flames have Kiprusoff. Heck,even the Isles were able to ride Rickey D. down the stretch. Nashville rode a pretty good goalie as well. Ther Rangers do not have anyone like that. Hopefully Lundquist & Blackburn will be those goalies in the future, but Dunham is not them.

True Blue 05-18-2004 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfuture
Money will be an issue yes, but teams like detroit, and colorado have the money. Plus the rangers can pay some like washington did with us. The rangers can just buy out holik. So they're you go. :yo:

Paying someone $$$ does not matter. The team that assumes the contract, assumes the full cap hit.
And what is the point of buying out Holik? How does that make sense?

Son of Steinbrenner 05-18-2004 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Montreal has Theodore, the Flames have Kiprusoff. Heck,even the Isles were able to ride Rickey D. down the stretch. Nashville rode a pretty good goalie as well. Ther Rangers do not have anyone like that. Hopefully Lundquist & Blackburn will be those goalies in the future, but Dunham is not them.

perhaps if the rangers sign khabby (not impossible considering sather has tried to trade for him in the past) the rangers can ride a goalie to the playoffs.

True Blue 05-18-2004 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
perhaps if the rangers sign khabby (not impossible considering sather has tried to trade for him in the past) the rangers can ride a goalie to the playoffs.

Sure they can sign him. But 1) Why would he sign here? Tampa is a better place to win than here. There will be many more viable places for him to sign. 2) What about Dunham? He's not very tradeable and I highly doubt that Sather buys him out. With Dunham here, it will be very diffucult to sign another goalie. 3) Signing 'Bulin will require $$$ and a long-term commitment. A long-term committment means that neither Blackburn nor Lundquist will be getting a chance in the next 4 years. Plus, the $$$ commitment to sign him will be considerable. With Jagr, Kasper, & Holik, the Rangers are already $25m against any type of cap or luxury tax that WILL occur.

Melrose_Jr. 05-18-2004 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slewfoot
I wouldn't have thought that Montreal + the Islanders would have had 93 + 91 points or Calgary + Nashville would have had 94 + 91 points either.

Points are not really a good gauge because, since the inception of the new points system, a LOT more points are handed out in a season.

Yah, if Sather takes the Mike Milbury approach to "rebuilding", then there's a chance we might make the playoffs. I'm not interested in seeing the Rangers be a consumate bubble team and subsequent first round fodder though, which is what the Islanders are and probably all they'll ever be until the next rebuild. If Sather's really committed to rebuilding, he has to follow a plan much like Nashville has. That plan CAN NOT include a run at next years playoffs as a goal.

Son of Steinbrenner 05-18-2004 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Sure they can sign him. But 1) Why would he sign here? Tampa is a better place to win than here. There will be many more viable places for him to sign. 2) What about Dunham? He's not very tradeable and I highly doubt that Sather buys him out. With Dunham here, it will be very diffucult to sign another goalie. 3) Signing 'Bulin will require $$$ and a long-term commitment. A long-term committment means that neither Blackburn nor Lundquist will be getting a chance in the next 4 years. Plus, the $$$ commitment to sign him will be considerable. With Jagr, Kasper, & Holik, the Rangers are already $25m against any type of cap or luxury tax that WILL occur.

why u think the jagrs full contract will count againts the cap i don't know. perhaps you read it in larry brooks? :lol

have you seen the new cba? do you know how contracts will count againts the cap? please tell the world how you know this info.

hmm why would a russian player want to sign in new york? why do russian players love playing in new york? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

do you know that blackburn or lundquist are going to be great goalies in the future? i think blackburn will be fine but i have never seen lundquist play. have you?

perhaps you don't know this but you can never have to many good goalies. lundquist and blackburn are unproven and need at least a year in hartford to prove themselves to the rangers. you want to rush these prospects but when they fail for being rushed you and i will roast sather for rushing them.

i don't think there is anyway dunham is on this team next year. yes i think sather buys him out or trades him by picking up his contract.

True Blue 05-18-2004 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
why u think the jagrs full contract will count againts the cap i don't know. perhaps you read it in larry brooks? :lol

And this conversation started so well. You just cannot manage to continue a conversation in a civil level, can you?

"have you seen the new cba? do you know how contracts will count againts the cap? please tell the world how you know this info."

Yes, Jagr's contract will count the full amount against the cap for whatever team it is that holds the contract. Why? Becuase that is the way it is in EVERY other major sport. In no sport, in no case, does the value of a player's contract count against a cap/luxury tax treshold count against 2 teams. Just does not happen. So, given all the precedents, I would doubt it that the NHL will become the first team where a player's contract hit against a cap can be split amongst several teams.

"hmm why would a russian player want to sign in new york? why do russian players love playing in new york? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm"

Kovalev could not wait to get out. IF the Rangers were to be a good team, your argument could hold a little water. However, 'Bulin is going to go for the most $$$, in a place that will be competitive. I could care less if the entire population of Brighton Beach would beseech for him, if Colarado offers him a chance to play there or if Tampa wants him back, why on Earth would he come here?

"do you know that blackburn or lundquist are going to be great goalies in the future? i think blackburn will be fine but i have never seen lundquist play. have you?"

Who said anything about the being great goalies? I simply said that in order to develop, they are going to need chances to play. Does not happen if Sather signs 'Bulin. As for Lundquist, he is purported to be one of the better players not in the NHL. He is playing in a league that could be considered the best outside the NHL. He is young and has a world of talent. Given those factors, why on Earth would I think that he has a chance to be a very good player?

"perhaps you don't know this but you can never have to many good goalies. lundquist and blackburn are unproven and need at least a year in hartford to prove themselves to the rangers. you want to rush these prospects but when they fail for being rushed you and i will roast sather for rushing them. "

Big difference between rushing then and not giving them the chance to develop their game at the NHL level. No, you can never have too many good goalies. But there is a limit on how many of them get to be in the NHL & AHL at the same time.

"i don't think there is anyway dunham is on this team next year. yes i think sather buys him out or trades him by picking up his contract."

Sather buying him out is pure fantasy. I would be shocked if that were to occur.

nyrfuture 05-18-2004 01:29 PM

Fine I admit I was wrong, Holik was great this year so was Jagr and it would be cool having them play with the youngsters, but wouldn't you want to get another first rounder, in a deeper draft for Jagr, if we don't do good. Whats the point of keeping him?

Son of Steinbrenner 05-18-2004 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
And this conversation started so well. You just cannot manage to continue a conversation in a civil level, can you?

"have you seen the new cba? do you know how contracts will count againts the cap? please tell the world how you know this info."

Yes, Jagr's contract will count the full amount against the cap for whatever team it is that holds the contract. Why? Becuase that is the way it is in EVERY other major sport. In no sport, in no case, does the value of a player's contract count against a cap/luxury tax treshold count against 2 teams. Just does not happen. So, given all the precedents, I would doubt it that the NHL will become the first team where a player's contract hit against a cap can be split amongst several teams.

"hmm why would a russian player want to sign in new york? why do russian players love playing in new york? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm"

Kovalev could not wait to get out. IF the Rangers were to be a good team, your argument could hold a little water. However, 'Bulin is going to go for the most $$$, in a place that will be competitive. I could care less if the entire population of Brighton Beach would beseech for him, if Colarado offers him a chance to play there or if Tampa wants him back, why on Earth would he come here?

"do you know that blackburn or lundquist are going to be great goalies in the future? i think blackburn will be fine but i have never seen lundquist play. have you?"

Who said anything about the being great goalies? I simply said that in order to develop, they are going to need chances to play. Does not happen if Sather signs 'Bulin. As for Lundquist, he is purported to be one of the better players not in the NHL. He is playing in a league that could be considered the best outside the NHL. He is young and has a world of talent. Given those factors, why on Earth would I think that he has a chance to be a very good player?

"perhaps you don't know this but you can never have to many good goalies. lundquist and blackburn are unproven and need at least a year in hartford to prove themselves to the rangers. you want to rush these prospects but when they fail for being rushed you and i will roast sather for rushing them. "

Big difference between rushing then and not giving them the chance to develop their game at the NHL level. No, you can never have too many good goalies. But there is a limit on how many of them get to be in the NHL & AHL at the same time.

"i don't think there is anyway dunham is on this team next year. yes i think sather buys him out or trades him by picking up his contract."

Sather buying him out is pure fantasy. I would be shocked if that were to occur.

perhaps you don't know about the nfl salary cap. when the jets cut vinny guess what? he will still count againts the jets cap for next season and will count againts anyteam that he goes too.

khabby may sign here and may not sign here. the fact the rangers have not been succesful has not stopped free agents from signing here in the past.

kazo 05-18-2004 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slewfoot
Call me crazy but I am not ready to write off making the playoffs next year already.

You're crazy.

BobMarleyNYR 05-18-2004 02:32 PM

I wanna see more changes... let's start with a good pick -- either Ladd (totally safe, great talent) or Olesz (pretty safe, more talent).

We need someone to fill Mess's spot... of course he can't be replaced, but we need a veteran leader aside from Jagr. RE-SIGN BARNABY! Maybe Simon... I also wouldn't mind taking Rucinsky back.

Maybe Slats should consider ending Poti's extended try-out... he's had it tough, and I don't think this is the best place for him. He did try. Same for Lundmark. He's just not clicking. I'd almost be tempted to give him ONE last chance. He's really under the gun, on the chopping block.

Might also be time for Dunham to go. He was the most inconsistent Ranger last season. SO many outstanding young goalies out there.

We need to finally bring in some guys from Europe... Prucha, Baranka.

Use Grenier, Paul, Umberger (that ignoramus) and Heerema as trade bait.

Can Bure return? Hope so, but let's be realistic.

Can Lindros return? Hope so, with another team.

Most of all, we need someone to take the no. 1 center role from Holik. He already does a lot, and it's asking much of him to do that. He's not a first line center... As far as his attitude, what? People don't like him because he's not an
optimistic, ignorant fool? He just knows you can't eat **** and pretend it's chocolate ice cream.

xander 05-18-2004 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfuture
Fine I admit I was wrong, Holik was great this year so was Jagr and it would be cool having them play with the youngsters, but wouldn't you want to get another first rounder, in a deeper draft for Jagr, if we don't do good. Whats the point of keeping him?

it's not a matter of why we should keep him, it's a matter of him being untradeable. We're stuck with him. That said, Jagr's been great (both on and off the ice) since he got here and has shown signs that he can work with and help the development of a young team.

True Blue 05-18-2004 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfuture
but wouldn't you want to get another first rounder, in a deeper draft for Jagr, if we don't do good. Whats the point of keeping him?

That's the point. Their contracts are untradeable, IMO. So what are you saying, if we can't trade either of them, we should buy them out? How does that make any sense?

True Blue 05-18-2004 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
perhaps you don't know about the nfl salary cap. when the jets cut vinny guess what? he will still count againts the jets cap for next season and will count againts anyteam that he goes too.

khabby may sign here and may not sign here. the fact the rangers have not been succesful has not stopped free agents from signing here in the past.

1. If the Jets cut Vinny, his old contract goes against the Jets and his new contract will go against whatever team it is that signs him. His old contract is not going to count against 2 teams.
2. Yes, othre UFA's have signed here. People like Holik & Kasper came here for the $$$. I think we've had enough of players coming here for just a payday. Other than that, what free agents just wanted to come here (aside from Hlavac who does not count). We want those that want to be here, not those that come here just for cash. And even those have been hard to find as players seemed to be willing to sign for less money with better teams.

Slewfoot 05-18-2004 03:16 PM

If Sather's really committed to rebuilding, he has to follow a plan much like Nashville has. That plan CAN NOT include a run at next years playoffs as a goal.[/QUOTE]

If by this statement you mean that you don't want Sather to sign numerous UFA's , I agree. My point was that how does anyone know that they can't compete for the 8th spot in the East with the few veterans they have and the kids? Is the current Nashville or Islander lineup that much better than the current Ranger lineup ?

Slewfoot 05-18-2004 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazo
You're crazy.

If I knew all I had to do was ask , I would have rephrased by statement to 'Send me 500 dollars' instead of 'Call me crazy' .....

Son of Steinbrenner 05-18-2004 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
1. If the Jets cut Vinny, his old contract goes against the Jets and his new contract will go against whatever team it is that signs him. His old contract is not going to count against 2 teams.
2. Yes, othre UFA's have signed here. People like Holik & Kasper came here for the $$$. I think we've had enough of players coming here for just a payday. Other than that, what free agents just wanted to come here (aside from Hlavac who does not count). We want those that want to be here, not those that come here just for cash. And even those have been hard to find as players seemed to be willing to sign for less money with better teams.

you still have not provided proof that that jagrs contract will count againts the cap. if the jets trade vinny then yes my dear friend his contract will count againts both caps. that is why football trades are so rare. i should have used that as my analogy. i'm sure you knew that though.

are you saying that holik and kasper have not played hard for the past two seasons? i could care less how much money the rangers spend on a player its not my money. name 5 guys that have signed for less money with another team besides selanne and kariya. (that worked out well for the avs)

yeah the union will be so happy if there players are signing contracts below market value during the last free agent period of the new cba. if that happens the owners have won before the lockout.

True Blue 05-18-2004 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
you still have not provided proof that that jagrs contract will count againts the cap. if the jets trade vinny then yes my dear friend his contract will count againts both caps. that is why football trades are so rare. i should have used that as my analogy. i'm sure you knew that though.

If the Jets trade Vinny, the amount of $$$ that was paid for a signing bonus by the Jets is the amount that is accelerated and counts against the cap for the Jets. For the new team, they are only bound by the amount of contract. The value of the old contract does not count for his old team. If the Rangers were to trade Jagr, his $11m will count against the team that holds the contract.

"are you saying that holik and kasper have not played hard for the past two seasons? "

Where did I say that?
"name 5 guys that have signed for less money with another team besides selanne and kariya. (that worked out well for the avs"

We're talking about the Rangers, right? How many have rushed to sign here recently? Holik & Kasper came becuase Sather payed them more than anywhere else, not out of desire to play for the NYR. We want players here who come here for more than a payday. How have Sather's other UFA's worked out?

"yeah the union will be so happy if there players are signing contracts below market value during the last free agent period of the new cba. if that happens the owners have won before the lockout."

Who cares if the union is happy or not? Players are free to sign wherever they want. The owners have won every other lockout, why should this one be any different? The only sport where the players win is baseball. In football, the owners broke the union. In basketball, their own players threatened to de-sertify the union in the event of a strike. In hockey, the players have yet to win anything. I think that there will be a middle-ground found, but it will ultimately favor the owners.


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