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-   -   TSN: Boston Just ***** Florida (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=789463)

ferrisUML 06-22-2010 01:34 PM

Boston Just ***** Florida
 
Horton and Campbell for Wideman (I know), 2010 15th and 2011 3rd. The the East just got tougher....

When I see deals like this, I cry a little inside. Boston, Philly, NJ all improved and we're idle so far. Snow needs pull some pieces from outside the draft if our team is have any chance at making the playoffs.

CodeE 06-22-2010 01:43 PM

Don't think it's that one-sided to be using censored words :sarcasm:

Honestly, Florida's rebuilding and got back a mid-round 1st, a young top-4 defenseman, and another pick. With all the 2nds they have, it's very possible they can move up for 15, or package together some of those picks for a Versteeg/Ladd package.

HyeDray 06-22-2010 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrisUML (Post 26417600)
The the East just got tougher...



Umm.....Not to nit pick—but Boston and Florida are both in the East. The East stayed the same....


I think it remains important for Snowy to stay the course. Just because Boston makes a deal doesn't mean we have to make one. No need to panic

Augscura 06-22-2010 01:44 PM

We'll see who they draft before I determine if this is a bad deal or not.

ferrisUML 06-22-2010 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyeDray (Post 26418003)
Umm.....Not to nit pick—but Boston and Florida are both in the East. The East stayed the same....


I think it remains important for Snowy to stay the course. Just because Boston makes a deal doesn't mean we have to make one. No need to panic

Florida was never a contender for a playoff spot in 2010-2011. Boston was. Therefore, the East just got tougher in regards to a competing for a berth.

ferrisUML 06-22-2010 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thisisacodee (Post 26417932)
Don't think it's that one-sided to be using censored words :sarcasm:

Honestly, Florida's rebuilding and got back a mid-round 1st, a young top-4 defenseman, and another pick. With all the 2nds they have, it's very possible they can move up for 15, or package together some of those picks for a Versteeg/Ladd package.

Im an NY transplant living in NH and I watch A LOT of Boston hockey. Wideman was ATROCIOUS this year. I mean really, really bad. Calling him top 4 is an insult to top 4 defenseman everywhere. Yeah, he had a 50 point season with the leagues top offense two years ago...what do you think happens in Florida on a team with now the leagues worst?

KH1 06-22-2010 01:55 PM

Nathan Horton has a history of injuries, disappearing in big spots, and pissing off his coaches, teammates and fans. Plus, he's never won a damn thing in his career.

Shouldn't the fact that Florida was so willing to get rid of their franchise player tell you something about him? I don't think that Boston "****ed" anyone in this deal.

CodeE 06-22-2010 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrisUML (Post 26418200)
Im an NY transplant living in NH and I watch A LOT of Boston hockey. Wideman was ATROCIOUS this year. I mean really, really bad. Calling him top 4 is an insult to top 4 defenseman everywhere. Yeah, he had a 50 point season with the leagues top offense two years ago...what do you think happens in Florida on a team with now the leagues worst?

I see Wideman and his $3.937 mil paycheck as the salary dump of the trade. The 15th is the important asset.

Essentially, it allows the Panthers to draft their choice of Fowler/Gudbranson/Gormley at 3, then still see which forwards are available at 15.

To me, this trade seemed like a statement that Tallon is very confident in the talent available in this draft, and the Panthers rebuild will take a major step forward depending on who they add at 15.

Fowler and Skinner/Tarasenko, for example, in the same draft. Not to mention all the 2nd round picks they've accumulated. This is shaping up to be a very important friday for the future of the Panthers franchise.

Dice on Ice 06-22-2010 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KH1 (Post 26418363)
Nathan Horton has a history of injuries, disappearing in big spots, and pissing off his coaches, teammates and fans. Plus, he's never won a damn thing in his career.

Shouldn't the fact that Florida was so willing to get rid of their franchise player tell you something about him? I don't think that Boston "****ed" anyone in this deal.

Plus Uno

The character concerns are the clincher from me. Everything about Horton screamed "STAY AWAY." Let him be Boston's problem.

From the Bruins' perspective, does this not reek of desperation to anyone else? You get screwed in the ECF because your offense sputters. Then you rob Peter to pay Paul (regardless of Wideman's follies this season) and leave a hole on your blue line to roll the dice on a total enigma.

Florida will likely replace Horton with Connolly, who boasts a similar skill set but better makeup at a younger age. Then they pick up a defenseman who can fill their gaping hole on the blue line in some capacity, plus another top fifteen pick in a pretty deep draft. Plus they can use the third rounder to package with the 15 and possibly another pick to move back into the top dozen and land a primo talent. Austin Watson? Mikael Granlund? That's a formidable draft haul any way you slice it.

If you ask me, I think the trade's dead-even for both sides.

Richie Daggers Crime 06-22-2010 02:06 PM

I think Florida did okay. They got a good pick and a serviceable player for a dude, for whatever reason, didn't mesh with them.

hgo 06-22-2010 02:13 PM

It's a shame. I would have considered trading the 5th overall for him. Oh well.

Does this change Boston's draft strategy at all if Hall goes 1?

(NOTE: I'm going through a phase where I'm throwing possibilities out there, whether I believe them or not.)

Doug Height 06-22-2010 03:16 PM

Horton also asked to be traded.

bones21212 06-22-2010 03:22 PM

will boston now draft a defenseman second over-all?

the sweetener 06-22-2010 03:27 PM

was wondering if maybe they'd move back a spot or 2 and take a D.

HyeDray 06-22-2010 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrisUML (Post 26418141)
Florida was never a contender for a playoff spot in 2010-2011. Boston was. Therefore, the East just got tougher in regards to a competing for a berth.

Anything can happen in 2010-11. I am not sold on Horton as that big a deal. The Panthers has Jay Bo, Horton, Weiss, Jokenin and Luongo and never got into the playoffs. Someone explain to me how theses guys are all so great?

Im glad we did not go after Horton. I had zero interest in him.

I understand the frustration. To me—it is an absolute NO BRAINER to make a deal for Versteeg per Botta. I think if they announce that we sent our pick at #35 plus one of our two thirds for Versteeg and Sopel—Id be okay with that. Or better yet—make it Versteeg and Huet. That is what I would really prefer.

MTK 06-22-2010 03:40 PM

I wouldn't say Florida got screwed. Horton is overrated like crazy around here. The trade is somewhat fair value.

Horton had one 30 goal season in his career and is paid 4 million a year with 3 years left on his contract . As well hasn't played a full season since 08.

Also, Florida has like 6 draft picks in the first two rounds. Which is good since they are rebuilding.

They just need some NHL players which is why I think Florida may be trying to make a trade with Chicago in the upcoming days with some of those picks.

This is also good for us, since they may take Forward with their 3rd pick now

crashthenet 06-22-2010 04:17 PM

Taking back Wideman's disgusting contract is a head scratcher. 8.5 million over the next two years.

Paulinho 06-22-2010 04:40 PM

Good trade for Boston but not a bad deal for Florida. They could come out of the draft with Gudbranson & Tarasenko... not bad. Wideman will help them.

Brodeur 06-22-2010 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrisUML (Post 26418141)
Florida was never a contender for a playoff spot in 2010-2011. Boston was. Therefore, the East just got tougher in regards to a competing for a berth.

Wouldn't surprise me if Florida is competitive. Twelve months ago they were coming off of a 93 point season and missed the playoffs because of a tiebreaker. This season got derailed a bit by David Booth's concussion and not really replacing Jay Bouwmeester.

The Panthers seem to be a natural landing spot for Chicago's salary cap casualties as well. And they're armed with picks #3, #15, #33, #36, and #50. They're probably in a good spot to deal one of those picks for immediate help. What if they can deal #15 for a package centered around Kris Versteeg? Horton for Versteeg+Wideman suddenly doesn't sound as bad.

Horton seemed to wear out his welcome in Florida, so it might be best for both parties to start fresh.

Paulinho 06-22-2010 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brodeur (Post 26424804)
Wouldn't surprise me if Florida is competitive. Twelve months ago they were coming off of a 93 point season and missed the playoffs because of a tiebreaker. This season got derailed a bit by David Booth's concussion and not really replacing Jay Bouwmeester.

The Panthers seem to be a natural landing spot for Chicago's salary cap casualties as well. And they're armed with picks #3, #15, #33, #36, and #50. They're probably in a good spot to deal one of those picks for immediate help. What if they can deal #15 for a package centered around Kris Versteeg? Horton for Versteeg+Wideman suddenly doesn't sound as bad.

Horton seemed to wear out his welcome in Florida, so it might be best for both parties to start fresh.

Why would they trade the 15th pick for Versteeg? Overpayment IMO.

majormet 06-22-2010 05:25 PM

I don't think Florida got hosed here, they gave up a problematic player and got some kind of return. Horton is a gamble he can put up huge numbers but I see him as a bad fit with Julien.

Brodeur 06-22-2010 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TyRanT (Post 26425022)
Why would they trade the 15th pick for Versteeg? Overpayment IMO.

I did say "trade centered around" Versteeg as a qualifier. You could do worse than a 24 year old winger who's put up 20 goals in back to back years. We all like to think we can turn a mid first round pick into a future All-Star, but the reality is that a significant number of mid-first rounders don't exactly turn out to be anything more than serviceable NHLers.

Just from the last decade, here are picks 15-20 from 1997-2007 (the recent picks all have new car smell to them):

Matt Zultek, Ty Jones, Robert Dome, Michael Holmqvist, Stefan Cherneski, Mike Brown

Mathieu Chouinard, Eric Chouinard, Martin Skoula, Dmitri Kalinin, Robyn Regehr, Scott Parker

Scott Kelman, David Tanabe, Barret Jackman, Konstantin Koltsov, Kirll Safranov, Barret Hesiten

Artem Kryukov, Marcel Hossa, Alexei Mikhnov, Brooks Oprik, Krys Kolanos, Alex Frolov

Igor Nnyazev, R.J. Umberger, Carlo Colaiacovo, Jens Karlsson, Shaone Morrison, Marcel Goc

Jesse Niinimaki, Jakub Klepis, Boyd Gordon, Denis Grebeshkov, Jakub Koreis, Dan Paille

Robert Nilsson, Steve Bernier, Zach Parise, Eric Fehr, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Burns

Alex Radulov, Petteri Nokelainen, Marek Schwarz, Kyle Chipchura, Lauri Korpikoski, Travis Zajac

Ryan O'Marra, Alex Bourret, Martin Hanzal, Ryan Parent, Jakub Kindl, Kenndal McArdle

Riku Helenius, Ty Wishart, Trevor Lewis, Chris Stewart, Mark Mitera, David Fischer

Alex Plante, Colton Gilles, Alex Cherepanov (RIP), Ian Cole, Logan MacMillan, Angelo Esposito

It's a bit of a simplistic analysis, but if you were to rank all of those names, I think Versteeg would end up pretty high on your wish list. And by most indications, this draft isn't going to be like the bonanza that the 2003 Draft was.

Florida was (off the top of my head) 28th in goals scored last season. They just traded away one of their few threats. Since they already have a ton of picks, adding a guy like Versteeg would make sense to me.

Dice on Ice 06-22-2010 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brodeur (Post 26426646)
It's a bit of a simplistic analysis, but if you were to rank all of those names, I think Versteeg would end up pretty high on your wish list. And by most indications, this draft isn't going to be like the bonanza that the 2003 Draft was.

This approach ignores two essential things:

(a) Past performance does not indicate the nature of future returns

(b) Draft picks are not valued based on this type of analysis. A GM valuing draft picks that way would get his clock cleaned by his rivals. If Versteeg is high on that list, then what's the value of Horton? The 4th overall, where he was selected awhile back? What's the value of Halak?

Here's a great example of where you get screwed like that: Ottawa traded San Jose's first rounder for Mike Comrie and Chris Campoli. Campoli was the centerpiece. After all, between 25 and 30, what's the shot at landing a player who would replicate Campoli's NHL tenure?

Ask Bryan Murray how he feels about that one now.

Brodeur 06-22-2010 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dice on Ice (Post 26427125)
This approach ignores two essential things:

(a) Past performance does not indicate the nature of future returns

(b) Draft picks are not valued based on this type of analysis. A GM valuing draft picks that way would get his clock cleaned by his rivals. If Versteeg is high on that list, then what's the value of Horton? The 4th overall, where he was selected awhile back? What's the value of Halak?

Here's a great example of where you get screwed like that: Ottawa traded San Jose's first rounder for Mike Comrie and Chris Campoli. Campoli was the centerpiece. After all, between 25 and 30, what's the shot at landing a player who would replicate Campoli's NHL tenure?

Ask Bryan Murray how he feels about that one now.

Like I said, it's a simplistic approach. And for the record, I remember being in a Las Vegas hotel room and seeing the Campoli trade scroll on ESPN. My first thought "What the hell is Ottawa thinking?"

I'm just saying that if I was in Dale Tallon's shoes, I'd certainly be open to trading some of those picks for immediate help. Being that Tallon is infinitely familiar with Versteeg and the other guys Chicago's going to have to trade, Florida makes a logical landing spot.

Florida wasn't that far off from a playoff team 12 months ago. And if this past playoff showed anything, it gets pretty wide open in the East once the playoffs begin.

If I'm Florida, do I simply hang onto #15 and take somebody like Austin Watson who is a high character guy that started to show some offensive promise? Sure, can't blame them if they did. But i also can't blame them if they wanted to replace Horton's offense either.

Tallon stated that he planned on following his Chicago blueprint of just stockpiling talent. So he very well may just use all those picks this year and hope they all develop 3+ years down the road.

And the premise of my argument was the original poster's assertion that the Panthers got bent over in terms of trade value. While I think Horton's set up for a career year in Boston, the Panthers can very well walk away pretty happy with this deal as well.

Dice on Ice 06-22-2010 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brodeur (Post 26427378)
Like I said, it's a simplistic approach. And for the record, I remember being in a Las Vegas hotel room and seeing the Campoli trade scroll on ESPN. My first thought "What the hell is Ottawa thinking?"

I'm just saying that if I was in Dale Tallon's shoes, I'd certainly be open to trading some of those picks for immediate help. Being that Tallon is infinitely familiar with Versteeg and the other guys Chicago's going to have to trade, Florida makes a logical landing spot.

Florida wasn't that far off from a playoff team 12 months ago. And if this past playoff showed anything, it gets pretty wide open in the East once the playoffs begin.

If I'm Florida, do I simply hang onto #15 and take somebody like Austin Watson who is a high character guy that started to show some offensive promise? Sure, can't blame them if they did. But i also can't blame them if they wanted to replace Horton's offense either.

Tallon stated that he planned on following his Chicago blueprint of just stockpiling talent. So he very well may just use all those picks this year and hope they all develop 3+ years down the road.

And the premise of my argument was the original poster's assertion that the Panthers got bent over in terms of trade value. While I think Horton's set up for a career year in Boston, the Panthers can very well walk away pretty happy with this deal as well.

I agree with everything except the idea that Versteeg merits the 15 in exchange. I don't think he does. And there's no way he comes close to replacing Horton's production by himself.


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