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kmad 11-04-2010 06:27 PM

Best offensive defensemen?
 
In this thread try to rank defensemen based purely on their offense.

Also known as The Redemption Of Phil Housley.

Orr 1st, Coffey 2nd for sure.

Others:

Phil Housley
Larry Murphy
Ray Bourque
Chris Chelios (1st half of career)
Scott Stevens (1st half of career)
Scott Niedermayer
Eddie Shore
Al MacInnis
Steve Duchesne
Brad Park
Flash Hollett
Mark Howe
Borje Salming
Nicklas Lidstrom
...Mike Green?

seventieslord 11-04-2010 06:30 PM

You'd be surprised, after you really sit down and crunch some numbers, how fast you'll run out of room for Phil Housley in a top-10 list.

Hawkey Town 18 11-04-2010 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahovlich (Post 28737434)
In this thread try to rank defensemen based purely on their offense.

Also known as The Redemption Of Phil Housley.

Orr 1st, Coffey 2nd for sure.

Others:

Phil Housley
Larry Murphy
Ray Bourque
Chris Chelios (1st half of career)
Scott Stevens (1st half of career)
Scott Niedermayer
Eddie Shore
Al MacInnis
Steve Duchesne
Brad Park
Flash Hollett
Mark Howe
Borje Salming
Nicklas Lidstrom
...Mike Green?

Don't forget about Potvin

steve141 11-04-2010 06:38 PM

The biggest omission on your list is Potvin.

Fot contemporary defencemen I'm pretty sure I have Gonchar and Leetch above Niedermayer.

steve141 11-04-2010 06:51 PM

Though the game was very different, it's hard to ignore Harvey and Kelly either.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-04-2010 06:52 PM

I think it's easiest to divide offensive defensemen into "pre-Orr" and "post-Orr" because of how profoundly he changed the position. After you have two separate lists, you could then try to combine them.

Pre-Orr, you have Harry Cameron, Georges Boucher, Sprague Cleghorn, King Clancy, Eddie Shore, Flash Hollet, Bill Quackenbush, Red Kelly, Doug Harvey, and Bill Gadsby.

In terms of offense-only, I would rank the NHL era guys like this (offense only):

Eddie Shore / Red Kelly
King Clancy
Doug Harvey/Bill Gadsby/Pierre Pilote
Flash Hollet/Bill Quackenbush

Not sure where Georges Boucher/Harry Cameron/Sprague Cleghorn go, but probably somewhere below Clancy, but above Hollett and Quackenbush

kmad 11-04-2010 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve141 (Post 28738118)
Though the game was very different, it's hard to ignore Harvey and Kelly either.

This is why objectively ranking this list would be so hard.

It's easier to judge overall effectiveness in separate eras, but the nature of offense - especially by defenseman - on an era by era basis fluctuates so wildly that it becomes more difficult.

A guy like Flash Hollett might end up ahead of a guy like Larry Murphy once we fully analyze it.

And yea I know I missed a few (Potvin, Leetch, Zubov, etc) but this was just a list to get started. I don't think I could make and defend an actual top-25 ranking past Orr and Coffey.

BraveCanadian 11-04-2010 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 28738147)
I think it's easiest to divide offensive defensemen into "pre-Orr" and "post-Orr" because of how profoundly he changed the position.

I agree and its strange because it almost seems that the position has reverted the last 15 years with the increased emphasis on defense and systems. Effective rushing defensemen are rare again.

Post expansion I think Housley actually makes the cut as a top 10 offensive defenseman:

Orr and Coffey are locks as was pointed out.

Then you have the other 100 point guys who are also 1000 point guys. They peaked higher than Housley and also had longevity.

Potvin
Macinnis
Leetch

Thats 5 right there.

Bourque obviously is right around there too because he topped out in the 90+ range and kept it up forever.

Lidstrom has to be in there slightly below Bourque offensively with 1000+ points in a largely lower scoring time period.

Robinson/Park I see as being roughly on par with Housley offensively.

Pretty much I think Housley slots in after Lidstrom/Robinson/Park depending on how you rank those guys.

He's certainly better than Murphy offensively playing in mostly the same time periods and Chelios, Stevens, Howe, Duschene et all either really never reached the same level or couldn't kept it up as long as the earlier guys here.

So post expansion at least I'd put him 9-10 for career.

Scott1980 11-04-2010 08:55 PM

Others to consider are:

Pilote
Lapointe
Wilson

Before Orr, we have:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played


During Orr's Time We Have

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

After Orr's Time We Have

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

And From 88/89 till now

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

Trottier 11-04-2010 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahovlich (Post 28738207)
And yea I know I missed a few (Potvin, Leetch, Zubov, etc) but this was just a list to get started. I don't think I could make and defend an actual top-25 ranking past Orr and Coffey.

I could. One of those few you missed is arguably #2 or 3 offensively of alltime. Certainly not just my opinion, either.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-04-2010 09:35 PM

Can't believe I forgot Pilote (and the 60s in general) in my pre-Orr post above. Edited accordingly.

kmad 11-05-2010 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trottier (Post 28742203)
I could. One of those few you missed is arguably #2 or 3 offensively of alltime. Certainly not just my opinion, either.

I don't see a way to justify Potvin over Coffey.

Regal 11-05-2010 03:22 AM

I was going to make a thread about the top offensive players, and then realized it would probably be easier to separate it into forwards and defensemen, and then looking at this thread, it seems like it's hard not to have to further separate the defenseman list.

I think I'd have to look into it a little more to start fleshing out positions, but for a rough top 10 pre and post Orr without an order I'd say:

Pre-Orr

Shore
Clancy
Pilote
Harvey
Kelly
Gadsby
Boucher
Cameron
Cleghorn
Hollett

Post-Orr
Orr
Coffey
Potvin
Bourque
Leetch
Lidstrom
Park
MacInnis
Robinson
Housley

steve141 11-05-2010 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regal (Post 28748058)

Pre-Orr

Shore
Clancy
Pilote
Harvey
Kelly
Gadsby
Boucher
Cameron
Cleghorn
Hollett

Post-Orr
Orr
Coffey
Potvin
Bourque
Leetch
Lidstrom
Park
MacInnis
Robinson
Housley

Very, very good list. I think that's it right there.

85highlander 11-05-2010 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regal (Post 28748058)
I was going to make a thread about the top offensive players, and then realized it would probably be easier to separate it into forwards and defensemen, and then looking at this thread, it seems like it's hard not to have to further separate the defenseman list.

I think I'd have to look into it a little more to start fleshing out positions, but for a rough top 10 pre and post Orr without an order I'd say:

Pre-Orr

Shore
Clancy
Pilote
Harvey
Kelly
Gadsby
Boucher
Cameron
Cleghorn
Hollett

Post-Orr
Orr
Coffey
Potvin
Bourque
Leetch
Lidstrom
Park
MacInnis
Robinson
Housley

An appropriate methodology for the Hockey Jesus, the one who forever altered the hockey landscape -- instead of using B.C. and A.D there is B.B.O. (before Bobby Orr) and A.B.O. (after Bobby Orr).

Marotte Marauder 11-06-2010 06:42 AM

Having seen the entire career of both players, not giving adjusted point mumbo jumbo any credence... Larry Robinson was not a better OFFENSIVE defenseman than Doug Wilson.

Sens Rule 11-06-2010 10:52 AM

Post Orr so no Harvey or Kelly or Pilotte or Shore.

1) Orr
2) Coffey
3) Potvin
4) Bourque
5) MacInnis
6) Leetch

After that it becomes more unclear. Housley, Wilson, Park, Howe, Robinson, Lapointe, Lidstrom, Reinhart and even Suter and several others can make a good argument for being in the top 10.

Starchild74 11-07-2010 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regal (Post 28748058)
I was going to make a thread about the top offensive players, and then realized it would probably be easier to separate it into forwards and defensemen, and then looking at this thread, it seems like it's hard not to have to further separate the defenseman list.

I think I'd have to look into it a little more to start fleshing out positions, but for a rough top 10 pre and post Orr without an order I'd say:

Pre-Orr

Shore
Clancy
Pilote
Harvey
Kelly
Gadsby
Boucher
Cameron
Cleghorn
Hollett

Post-Orr
Orr
Coffey
Potvin
Bourque
Leetch
Lidstrom
Park
MacInnis
Robinson
Housley

Everytime a list is made their are always players that we either forget about or to some their favourites are put higher then others. Now I will not say anything about your list before Orr. However I must ask after Orr did you forget or just feel that Larry Murphy didn't belong in the list

I would have it

Orr
Coffey
Bourque
Potvin
Murphy
MacInnis
Leetch
Park
Lidtsrom
Housely

Of course not complaining about your list was just curious about Larry Murphy that is all

Sens Rule 11-07-2010 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starchild74 (Post 28793080)
Everytime a list is made their are always players that we either forget about or to some their favourites are put higher then others. Now I will not say anything about your list before Orr. However I must ask after Orr did you forget or just feel that Larry Murphy didn't belong in the list

I would have it

Orr
Coffey
Bourque
Potvin
Murphy
MacInnis
Leetch
Park
Lidtsrom
Housely

Of course not complaining about your list was just curious about Larry Murphy that is all

Really you would have Murphy that high? It is ridiculous to have Murphy higher than 100 pt D-Men MacInnis and Leetch, or Housley for that matter. He is no where close to the top 5 offensive D-Men all time no matter how you slice it. He was a great offensive D-Man but he is farther down on the list which is why he has not been mentioned much or at all.

Starchild74 11-07-2010 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sens Rule (Post 28793351)
Really you would have Murphy that high? It is ridiculous to have Murphy higher than 100 pt D-Men MacInnis and Leetch, or Housley for that matter. He is no where close to the top 5 offensive D-Men all time no matter how you slice it. He was a great offensive D-Man but he is farther down on the list which is why he has not been mentioned much or at all.

Murphy never had the peak of MacInnis and Leetch and was not as good as a defenceman overall as MacInnis or Leetch. Murphy was very consistent. He was a good skater and was a very good passer. For the longest time he was the best puck mover not named Coffey or Bourque and was awesome at breakout passing.

He was a quarterback on the powerplay for almost every team he played for.

In the playoffs he was just as good, and put up decent numbers

Housley was no way better then Murphy in my opinion. I hated putting Housley in the top 10 actually but he did have some great numbers. Housley was a great skater an could rush the puck. However when it came to breakout passing it was a 50/50 chance wether he would connect the pass or have the opposition get a clear cut chance to score as he made some really brutal decisions

He was all risk and very low rewards. Most of the time when Housely was on the ice and he had the puck on his stick. Their would be a goal but not always for his team. However he did have skill and in alot of ways was more skilled then Murphy just not as smart as Murphy

Also Housley was not able to do what he did in the regular season in the Playoffs. Where Murphy did.

Murphy was not the most skilled defenceman to ever play the game but did alot with the skill he had and put up decent numbers. I mean he was not a skater like Coffey, Didn't have the shot of MacInnis, Didn't have the hands of Leetch etc....

But when you look at the all time list He is #5 all time for defenceman in points and #6 all time in playoffs for defenceman. That is pretty good to me.

Now if the list is just about skill that a defenceman had and not taking into account their career then yeah I can see an argument for not having Murphy in the top 10 maybe but if you are looking at a career as a whole then Murphy in my opinion should be in the top 10 for sure just my oppinion that is all

Sens Rule 11-07-2010 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starchild74 (Post 28793729)
Murphy never had the peak of MacInnis and Leetch and was not as good as a defenceman overall as MacInnis or Leetch. Murphy was very consistent. He was a good skater and was a very good passer. For the longest time he was the best puck mover not named Coffey or Bourque and was awesome at breakout passing.

He was a quarterback on the powerplay for almost every team he played for.

In the playoffs he was just as good, and put up decent numbers

Housley was no way better then Murphy in my opinion. I hated putting Housley in the top 10 actually but he did have some great numbers. Housley was a great skater an could rush the puck. However when it came to breakout passing it was a 50/50 chance wether he would connect the pass or have the opposition get a clear cut chance to score as he made some really brutal decisions

He was all risk and very low rewards. Most of the time when Housely was on the ice and he had the puck on his stick. Their would be a goal but not always for his team. However he did have skill and in alot of ways was more skilled then Murphy just not as smart as Murphy

Also Housley was not able to do what he did in the regular season in the Playoffs. Where Murphy did.

Murphy was not the most skilled defenceman to ever play the game but did alot with the skill he had and put up decent numbers. I mean he was not a skater like Coffey, Didn't have the shot of MacInnis, Didn't have the hands of Leetch etc....

But when you look at the all time list He is #5 all time for defenceman in points and #6 all time in playoffs for defenceman. That is pretty good to me.

Now if the list is just about skill that a defenceman had and not taking into account their career then yeah I can see an argument for not having Murphy in the top 10 maybe but if you are looking at a career as a whole then Murphy in my opinion should be in the top 10 for sure just my oppinion that is all

Consider what MacInnis and Leetch did for their teams in the playoffs the year the Flames won in 1989 and the Rangers in 1994. They were the best offensive players on Stanley Cup winners from defence. Murphy was never anywhere near that. He was a secondary star his whole career. He was a very effective player but IMO he is not near the dynamic offensive talents of many other defenceman that have a lot less career points than he does.

Derick* 11-07-2010 07:53 AM

Wade Belak

Starchild74 11-07-2010 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sens Rule (Post 28793945)
Consider what MacInnis and Leetch did for their teams in the playoffs the year the Flames won in 1989 and the Rangers in 1994. They were the best offensive players on Stanley Cup winners from defence. Murphy was never anywhere near that. He was a secondary star his whole career. He was a very effective player but IMO he is not near the dynamic offensive talents of many other defenceman that have a lot less career points than he does.

What MacInnis and Leetch did in their Conn Smyth years were incredible and I am not taking anythign away from them. As I said their peaks are higher then Murphy's. If I had to pick a defenceman to start a team with I would pick both of those guys ahead of Murphy no question.

To me Larry Murphy was not a secondary star his whole career. He was a pivotal factor in the Penguins winning the Cup in 1991 and even had more points then Coffey. He was just if not more important in 1992. He was also a key contributor in Detroit too when winning 2 cups there. He was the number one guy in Los Angeles when he was there and also in Washington and Minnesota. He might not have gotten the star status as others but to me he was just as good as many others.

I am not sayin gthat my top ten is right to the world but to me I just remember how many times in Pittsburgh and Washington when Murphy had the puck and would thread a pass to a forward. How he would always seem to know when to shoot or pass on the powerplay. Later on in Detroit, Lidstrom was the main defenceman but Murphy at an older age still managed to put up decent numbers and when called upon was able to creat offence

Here is a question for you? If Murphy was a secondary star and not at the level of a MacInnis or a Leetch which of course is your opinion. Then how come Murphy was able to consistently put up the same number of points pretty much his whole career, no matter where he played? Why was he able to still produce at an old age?

I just think that Murphy was underated for what he did.

Dennis Bonvie 11-07-2010 08:56 AM

Just my opinion, but it seems to me Leetch & Housley are underrated here as offensive players and Bourque is overrated.

For a large part of Bourque's career he rarely rushed the puck. I'd attribute this to him realizing he was going to be continually overplayed by his coaches in order to carry the Bruin's from the back line. As a Bruins fan, I considered him a D first player who also had great offensive talent. But his huge numbers come from not only his longevity, but also his massive amounts of ice time during an era with massive amounts of points.

Strictly on offensive ability, I think Leetch and Housley were at least Bourque's equal.

Derick* 11-07-2010 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 28794316)
Just my opinion, but it seems to me Leetch & Housley are underrated here as offensive players and Bourque is overrated.

For a large part of Bourque's career he rarely rushed the puck. I'd attribute this to him realizing he was going to be continually overplayed by his coaches in order to carry the Bruin's from the back line. As a Bruins fan, I considered him a D first player who also had great offensive talent. But his huge numbers come from not only his longevity, but also his massive amounts of ice time during an era with massive amounts of points.

Strictly on offensive ability, I think Leetch and Housley were at least Bourque's equal.

Did you know that Bourque is the all-time leader in goals by a defenseman, points by a defenseman, and powerplay goals by a defenseman? And I think it's a safe assumption that he also has the powerplay points by a defenseman record, but hockey-reference doesn't have that so I haven't checked. I know that doesn't prove anything but I think it's a too-often overlooked fact that Bourque has all of the career offensive records for defenseman, those numbers being hidden in the shadow of Orr and Coffey's offensive peak.

He also came within ear shot of two Hart trophies, having one Gretzky/Lemieux era "shadow" Hart and the one Messier stole with the disingenuous New York voter. I don't mean to say he "technically" has two Harts or anything like that, but the fact that he had two seasons that put him so close says something.


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