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-   -   Which is more valuable to Poile? 4 first round picks or Shea Weber??? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=843108)

lightning_legwand* 11-17-2010 09:16 PM

Which is more valuable to Poile? 4 first round picks or Shea Weber???
 
I was watching the leafs/preds game last night and before they game they talked a bit about the predators. They had most of the focus on our superstar defenseman Shea Weber.

There was 4 analysts and not a single one of them said they thought Weber would re-sign in Nashville, due to our self employed cap and it would be a huge nuissance to the payroll and cripple things even more.

They all said that Poile's best bet would be to trade him for something just astronomically phenomenal or just wait until he hits RFA and other teams will without a doubt treat Weber like a UFA and will not mind paying out the 5 first round picks it would take to sign him away from us.

All of the analysts said they figure we go into the future after this season with Suter as the main guy and a crap load of first round draft picks most likely.





Tell me that this is BS?? I am very much to hoping that Weber signs long-term here and we can afford him! He is the face of this franchise and especially when we just named him captain!

I remember Poile saying in the Tennessean that when the Preds played the leafs it woudl be a good opportunity to speak with Shea's agent who lives in Toronto about a deal. Any word?? on Anything??

dulzhok 11-17-2010 09:23 PM

My thought is phones are becoming more and more common place, and Poile could potentially, if a phone is available, call Weber's agent.

He really needs to get a read on Weber. If either Weber or Suter appear to be not likely to sign long-term with us, we need to trade them while we can get huge return. Simple as that.

Meanwhile Weber isn't playing on top of his game right now. If he has a down year, that could make negotiations that much harder.

In terms of what is more valuable... picks or Weber. Depends on the picks. First, are they #2 picks, or #29 picks? Second, will they all be 5'9'' defensemen?

Soundgarden 11-17-2010 09:31 PM

It was a load of S. We will sign Shea Weber. Shea Weber will sign here and we will do a lot to make that happen. If you already didn't know already Shea Weber will also sign here.

I Will Son 11-17-2010 09:35 PM

It was Canadian media, what do you expect them to say?

deanwormer 11-17-2010 09:47 PM

Poile will try to sign both Weber and Suter. Not sure where the magic number is - something around $6mil for Weber, half-mil less for Suter? Poile has built the team around these guys and has structured salaries to accommodate signing them to competitive but reasonable contracts.

If Weber decides it's the bucks that matter, he's gone. Poile simply can't match what a NY or Mont or Det or west coast team might throw his way - $7mil+, I'm sure. But I don't think he takes the max money from a non-contender, either. If he's gonna' go suck up the cash it's not gonna' be in a wasteland like Atlanta or FL - gonna' be a contender like Det or SJ.

dulzhok 11-17-2010 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundgarden (Post 29016461)
It was a load of S. We will sign Shea Weber. Shea Weber will sign here and we will do a lot to make that happen. If you already didn't know already Shea Weber will also sign here.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_q3XC1jEMnm...Bob-746275.gif

We all hope he signs, but there is no guarantee, or even evidence that it's likely. He may want 8m. Are we going to give it him? And he may what to see how this year plays out before deciding if he wants to sign with us long term. It's all pure speculation at this point, from both sides.

barrytrotzsneck 11-17-2010 09:56 PM

Before you get too alarmed...leading this discussion was noted moron\recipient of too many headshots Nick Kypreos. They speculated that not only would Nashville not be able to pay Weber, but that he likely wanted to leave, on top of that. I'm surprised they didn't take it a step further and declare the Maple Leafs as his likely landing spot.

MattPreds37 11-17-2010 10:14 PM

5 first rounds pick would be the answer only if it was a non-playoff team supplying them and who is going to shell out that kind of money for Shea Weber who doesn't make the playoffs?

predfan24 11-17-2010 11:07 PM

If it came down between Suter or Weber and we could only sign one I'd go Suter.


Yes I went there.

sparkle twin 11-18-2010 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck (Post 29017123)
Before you get too alarmed...leading this discussion was noted moron\recipient of too many headshots Nick Kypreos. They speculated that not only would Nashville not be able to pay Weber, but that he likely wanted to leave, on top of that. I'm surprised they didn't take it a step further and declare the Maple Leafs as his likely landing spot.

I saw this and it pissed me off more than the game. That group is a joke.

Somehow only Weber is the one that's unhappy in Nashville while Doughty and all the other Dmen they were talking about are all happy in their current cities.

Meanwhile we made him Captain because we know we're not going to be able to sign him and have to trade him in the middle of the ****ing year.

TMI 11-18-2010 05:21 AM

There is absolutely no reason to rush negotiations with this contract. We have a while, and it seems to me that both Weber and Poile are busy right now. Something about a season... I don't know. I'm not much of a sports fan.

I really do wish people would stop assuming things. Pundits on Sportsnet are bad enough, but I guarantee there isn't a single person on these forums who has ever negotiated a large contract with an athlete, much less a hockey player. And it's certainly less likely that anyone around here has spoken with Weber, Poile, or Weber's agent about anything other than the weather and how much they love Weber's slapshot. Let's stop pretending we know better than Poile here. He's been doing this for a while now. When June rolls around I think we have more reason to panic, but it isn't even Thanksgiving yet.

To answer your question, no one knows. Five first rounders is sexy, but you don't know what you'll get with them. You can't even be assured that the picks wouldn't all end up 28-30, essentially making them high second rounders. Trading him at the deadline would likely yield a couple of roster players and a few picks at least, but then you have to think about what teams would be in the market to "buy" Weber, and what the contracts of the roster players coming our way would equal. We'd almost certainly have to trade for a single player making $6-$7mil or less assuming that is what we are planning to pay Weber. The rest would have to be prospects and picks. Another crap shoot. Right now it is absolutely the least risky route to try to just extend Weber. Besides, the trade deadline, while getting too close to July for our comfort, is probably still too early to be considering letting Weber go. Even if we're a basement dweller.

edit: I agree with predfan24

Broom of the System 11-18-2010 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by predfan24 (Post 29019087)
If it came down between Suter or Weber and we could only sign one I'd go Suter.


Yes I went there.

Couldn't agree more. That is all.

glenngineer 11-18-2010 06:40 AM

Thirdman, I do know someone that has talked to Weber about this situation and he is happy here. He stated, why would I have signed a 3 year contract that left me as a restricted free agent if I didn't want to re-sign here?

barrytrotzsneck 11-18-2010 08:18 AM

I do think that there's some urgency to get this done before the end of the season, contrary to what some believe. While we will likely have to open the purse strings more than ever before to re-sign him, it's not an unlimited budget. If July 1st rolls around, and Vancouver or Toronto or whomever drops a 10 million dollar per year offer sheet on him, we realistically cannot and will not match. While we can take the satisfaction that he's getting paid 3 million a year too much, we're still left with no Shea Weber in that situation -- and I don't think any amount of first round picks makes up for that (especially if you consider our first round success has been spotty, through our history).

As for the "who do you keep, Suter or Weber," it's easy to jump and say Suter given Weber\the team's struggle's while he was recently out...but remember that Suter struggled when Weber was injured in the first game of that season, as well. For whatever reason, they're the most dominant pairing in the league when together, but separated, they become starkly human.

dulzhok 11-18-2010 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck (Post 29022527)
I do think that there's some urgency to get this done before the end of the season, contrary to what some believe. While we will likely have to open the purse strings more than ever before to re-sign him, it's not an unlimited budget. If July 1st rolls around, and Vancouver or Toronto or whomever drops a 10 million dollar per year offer sheet on him, we realistically cannot and will not match. While we can take the satisfaction that he's getting paid 3 million a year too much, we're still left with no Shea Weber in that situation -- and I don't think any amount of first round picks makes up for that (especially if you consider our first round success has been spotty, through our history).

As for the "who do you keep, Suter or Weber," it's easy to jump and say Suter given Weber\the team's struggle's while he was recently out...but remember that Suter struggled when Weber was injured in the first game of that season, as well. For whatever reason, they're the most dominant pairing in the league when together, but separated, they become starkly human.

I agree, as to them being "busy", it's not stomping guys like Girioux, Carter, and Backes from signing their recent extensions.

I would say Suter/Weber are one of the best, but not THE most dominant pairing in hockey.

Watching Pronger last playoffs, that's dominance, and he doesn't even necessarily have to paired with Kimmo. Same goes for Lidstrom.

Other pairings that would give cetainly be in the conversation are Cambell/Seabrook, Doughty/Mitchell, and even Erhoff/Elder.

TMI 11-18-2010 09:40 AM

That's fine, but teams like Philly and St. Louis don't have nearly the same monetary dynamic that this team has. Our situation is more complicated. That's before even taking into account Weber is arguably more valuable to our team than those three are to their respective clubs. You can't just look at other players' extensions and assume Poile is sitting on his hands. And I only said they are busy because with the season in full swing I expect this to take a while, not to make excuses.

BigFatCat999 11-18-2010 11:04 AM

I'm a cold hearted *******. I was the one saying trade Vokoun to save money because Mason was looking good.

Weber is a HOF quality talent. But if someone blows you away with a deal, then you have to think about it.

The questions I would ask are the following:

1) Does Weber make Suter better?

If yes then you keep him. If not then you have to ask the next question

2) What is the compensation?

If the deal gives Nashville a phenomenal set of skills and players and makes the team better, do it.

3) Who's coming up the pike to replace him?

Oh let us see, Josi, Blum, Ellis, COR, Ekholm.

It's a matter of values. Without Suter Weber fell off a bit. I was in the group that Suter is more important than Weber. If someone gives Poile a deal which causes him to say, "You want to give us THIS for Webere?!?!?" You HAVE to think about it. Binkies and hockey crushes are nice but the main goal is to improve the team.

darth5 11-18-2010 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkle twin (Post 29021149)
I saw this and it pissed me off more than the game. That group is a joke.

Somehow only Weber is the one that's unhappy in Nashville while Doughty and all the other Dmen they were talking about are all happy in their current cities.

Meanwhile we made him Captain because we know we're not going to be able to sign him and have to trade him in the middle of the ****ing year.

I also saw this clown show. The premise of the discussion (that Shea wanted out) lost them credibility off the bat. Then they immediately jumped to all the most ridiculous conclusions from there. I tuned it out immediately. I have not seen a credible source quoting Shea as saying anything negative about this franchise or market. It is a joke.

As much as I shudder to type it, I have to go along with BFC-- you cannot out of hand reject any and all offers just becuase. I think you have to weigh the pros and cons, as I am sure DP will. But, having said that, I think Weber has more value when paired with Suter to this club than to any other single team.

lightning_legwand* 11-18-2010 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deanwormer (Post 29016887)
Poile will try to sign both Weber and Suter. Not sure where the magic number is - something around $6mil for Weber, half-mil less for Suter? Poile has built the team around these guys and has structured salaries to accommodate signing them to competitive but reasonable contracts.

If Weber decides it's the bucks that matter, he's gone. Poile simply can't match what a NY or Mont or Det or west coast team might throw his way - $7mil+, I'm sure. But I don't think he takes the max money from a non-contender, either. If he's gonna' go suck up the cash it's not gonna' be in a wasteland like Atlanta or FL - gonna' be a contender like Det or SJ.

Nashville cannot afford both Suter and Weber. Both are big time star defensemen and simply put, no matter what happens, we cannot afford to keep both. Will never happen. period.


If we did keep Suter and Weber, then our first line would look something like Spaling, Halischuk, and Smithson. We would have not money left over because it would all be tied up in two defensemen.


This really sucks....

Is Shea goes, I think a ton of Predator fans stop buying season tickets or just single game tickets in general. It would be a HUGE letdown/disapointment. Weber is the face of this franchise and if he goes and we miss playoffs or get beat out second round again. Things are not looking anywhere but down for the Preds.



I want Weber to sign a long term deal like Jeff Carter got. We could afford that!

But the longer this takes to happen, the more likely he is gone out of Nashville, and I and many other Nashville fans would be heart broken.



I would rather have Shea than 5 first round picks....

66Falconboy 11-18-2010 11:54 AM

5 first-round picks is a lot, folks. You've got to seriously consider the prospect of having that many high draft picks. Even if only 3 are "keepers", you still have taken one player and turned him into 3 assets. Not saying I would like to see Shea gone, but it's definitely something interesting.

predfan24 11-18-2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck (Post 29022527)
I do think that there's some urgency to get this done before the end of the season, contrary to what some believe. While we will likely have to open the purse strings more than ever before to re-sign him, it's not an unlimited budget. If July 1st rolls around, and Vancouver or Toronto or whomever drops a 10 million dollar per year offer sheet on him, we realistically cannot and will not match. While we can take the satisfaction that he's getting paid 3 million a year too much, we're still left with no Shea Weber in that situation -- and I don't think any amount of first round picks makes up for that (especially if you consider our first round success has been spotty, through our history).

As for the "who do you keep, Suter or Weber," it's easy to jump and say Suter given Weber\the team's struggle's while he was recently out...but remember that Suter struggled when Weber was injured in the first game of that season, as well. For whatever reason, they're the most dominant pairing in the league when together, but separated, they become starkly human.


The recent way Weber has played with Suter out is only one factor in my opinion of preferring Suter over Weber. Not the main contributing factor. I just think Suter is better plain and simple. I''m not saying it matter of factly though. It's highly debatable. Just my preference is Suter. I just think he is the better player and makes everybody around him better. Similar to Lidstrom. Obviously not anywhere near that level though.

I do hope we can keep both to reasonable contracts.

predfan24 11-18-2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightning_legwand (Post 29025152)
Nashville cannot afford both Suter and Weber. Both are big time star defensemen and simply put, no matter what happens, we cannot afford to keep both. Will never happen. period.

And you know this how? Have you done the legwork figuring out the financials? I haven't but I highly doubt you have. Let's just say hypothetically Weber gets a long term deal at 6 million per and Suter gets one at 5.5 million per. That would roughly be a 1.5 mil raise for Weber and a 2 mil raise for Suter. I know that is a optimistic projection but it isn't impossible. Just my not resigning Dumont, who is being misused anyways, you can afford their raises by giving them the money Dumont was making...

glenngineer 11-18-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by predfan24 (Post 29026633)
And you know this how? Have you done the legwork figuring out the financials? I haven't but I highly doubt you have. Let's just say hypothetically Weber gets a long term deal at 6 million per and Suter gets one at 5.5 million per. That would roughly be a 1.5 mil raise for Weber and a 2 mil raise for Suter. I know that is a optimistic projection but it isn't impossible. Just my not resigning Dumont, who is being misused anyways, you can afford their raises by giving them the money Dumont was making...

And still have $500,000 left over. ;)

Viqsi 11-18-2010 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdManIn (Post 29021713)
Five first rounders is sexy, but you don't know what you'll get with them. You can't even be assured that the picks wouldn't all end up 28-30, essentially making them high second rounders.

Don't discount second-round picks. You can get some really good players that way, like Shea Weber. ;)

And I hear that mid-to-late first rounders can also get very effective defensemen. There was this one guy in particular that comes to mind, name of Ryan Suter... :D


Personally, tho, I'd still keep Weber if at all possible. Prospects and futures are nice, especially when you have a draft record like Poile's, but eventually you have to have a few players you keep long-term.

(If y'all don't want him, though, we'll happily take him up here... :D )

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightning_legwand (Post 29025152)
Nashville cannot afford both Suter and Weber. Both are big time star defensemen and simply put, no matter what happens, we cannot afford to keep both. Will never happen. period.

If we did keep Suter and Weber, then our first line would look something like Spaling, Halischuk, and Smithson. We would have not money left over because it would all be tied up in two defensemen.

That depends entirely on what kind of contracts they're willing to take. Personally, I would have a little more faith in Poile than that. It's not impossible and I doubt it would somehow doom the team, but yeah, that's a heck of a challenge.

Toblerone 11-18-2010 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenngineer (Post 29021963)
Thirdman, I do know someone that has talked to Weber about this situation and he is happy here. He stated, why would I have signed a 3 year contract that left me as a restricted free agent if I didn't want to re-sign here?

I always hear Pred fans bring this point up in regards to Weber. He only signed 3 years knowing full well that he would be restricted at the end of the contract, thus meaning he wants to stay and re-sign. That could definitely be true, but if that scenario is true for Weber, are any Pred fans worried the opposite could be true for Suter? I'm sure Suter knew exactly what he was doing with signing a 4 year contract...I'm not saying he will be difficult to re-sign (as I really have no idea), but if one scenario is true for Weber, why not the other for Suter?


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