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 TrollololBoyle 11-22-2010 04:12 PM

Many other sports such as basketball and baseball have Sabremetric statistics that can show things like the percent of ground balls a pitcher produces, or on what part of the court a basketball player is most successful at shooting. They are better indicators of how good a player actually is, and often expose their faults better than average stats or what the naked eye could see.

Are there any known Sabremetric stats for hockey, perhaps something like 'save percentage on certain areas of the ice', or even something like 'percentage of goals on slap shots, wrist shots, or in Frolov's case... wraparounds, etc?'

Baseball obviously has fangraphs, what does hockey have, if anything?

Advanced statistics is the direction where many sports are heading and many front offices are using these stats to better understand the value of players. It could help determine how valuable defensive defensemen, who don't usually put up any numbers on the score sheet, are compared to each other.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal (Post 29111517) Many other sports such as basketball and baseball have Sabremetric statistics that can show things like the percent of ground balls a pitcher produces, or on what part of the court a basketball player is most successful at shooting. They are better indicators of how good a player actually is, and often expose their faults better than average stats or what the naked eye could see. Are there any known Sabremetric stats for hockey, perhaps something like 'save percentage on certain areas of the ice', or even something like 'percentage of goals on slap shots, wrist shots, or in Frolov's case... wraparounds, etc?' Baseball obviously has fangraphs, what does hockey have, if anything? Advanced statistics is the direction where many sports are heading and many front offices are using these stats to better understand the value of players. It could help determine how valuable defensive defensemen, who don't usually put up any numbers on the score sheet, are compared to each other.
You've just seen the gaping chasm of statistics in hockey.

That doesn't stop people from trying to use the rudimentary ones available to say some silly things around here though. :)

 Kyle McMahon 11-22-2010 05:58 PM

There's stuff like that out there. The blogging world is full of what you're looking for. Most of it is junk, but there's the odd thing worth a second look.

Over on the Oilers board I'm sure you'll see references to Shawn "Corsi" Horcoff. "Corsi" is some rating developed by former NHL goaltender Jim Corsi that seems to be a sort of advanced plus/minus stat. Apparently Horcoff rates very highly by this metric, and his many appologists will swear up and down by it. The fact that it disagrees with what our eyes tell us means it's quite likely a load of bunk, but I guess everyone can form their own opinion.

Some of the regulars in here have come up with some pretty good stuff. Overpass' adjusted plus-minus charts are the first to come to mind.

 foame 11-23-2010 04:59 AM

Behindthenet has alot of advanced statistics, including individual shooting.

 Loto68 11-23-2010 08:09 AM

I can't remember who came up with the statistic, but I know that out there there is a Sabremetric that has actually proved to be pretty good in ranking defensive defensemen.

 seventieslord 11-23-2010 10:45 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Loto68 (Post 29128076) I can't remember who came up with the statistic, but I know that out there there is a Sabremetric that has actually proved to be pretty good in ranking defensive defensemen.
I think I know what you're talking about. I saw a top-10 list from that stat posted last year. It was based on the player's GA/min at both even strength and on the PK, and had quality of competition factored in. The list had Lidstrom, Keith, Pronger, and Mitchell on it, from what I recall, so the stat has a lot of merit.

 Bear of Bad News 11-23-2010 10:54 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 29113349) Over on the Oilers board I'm sure you'll see references to Shawn "Corsi" Horcoff. "Corsi" is some rating developed by former NHL goaltender Jim Corsi that seems to be a sort of advanced plus/minus stat.
I don't believe that Jim Corsi actually developed CORSI (I'm not sure where he would have the time to do such a thing, because his work with goaltenders keeps him very busy). Although it's reasonably simple (essentially plus-minus applied to shots on net instead of goals), so maybe he thought of it and someone else ran with it.

I'd be happy to be corrected, however.

 seventieslord 11-23-2010 11:54 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Doctor No (Post 29130125) I don't believe that Jim Corsi actually developed CORSI (I'm not sure where he would have the time to do such a thing, because his work with goaltenders keeps him very busy). Although it's reasonably simple (essentially plus-minus applied to shots on net instead of goals), so maybe he thought of it and someone else ran with it. I'd be happy to be corrected, however.
I believe defensive GVT is more based on shots against as well, with the goalies being the ones responsible for stopping the shots.

To perfect it for the post-lockout years, they should look at shot quality and not just quantity. I would love to see statistically how low average shot quality Nik Lidstrom allows.

 Kyle McMahon 11-23-2010 07:01 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Doctor No (Post 29130125) I don't believe that Jim Corsi actually developed CORSI (I'm not sure where he would have the time to do such a thing, because his work with goaltenders keeps him very busy). Although it's reasonably simple (essentially plus-minus applied to shots on net instead of goals), so maybe he thought of it and someone else ran with it. I'd be happy to be corrected, however.
I was told by somebody on these boards that it was in fact Corsi that came up with it. I was surprised as well, if indeed this person was passing on correct information.

 Bear of Bad News 11-23-2010 07:04 PM

Well, I'll be darned - according to this (apparently reputable) source, Corsi was personally involved:

I always figured that it was used in the same light as VUKOTA, PECOTA, KUBIAK, et al. Learn something new every day!

 Sensfanman 11-23-2010 07:56 PM

Yea, CORSI is a pretty basic "advanced stat". It's useful for sure but I'd rather just straight up look at Scoring Opportunities For and Against.

Ideally, the stats I want out there the most are:
Possession time with the puck and possession time created; basically when a player creates possession time for their team with a hit, takeaway, one touch pass, etc.

The biggest problem is outside of the standard numbers, there's nothing public so you need a staff of people to watch all the games or some slick code to gather everything from the internet which is still limited.

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