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WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 03:04 PM

Goalie Career Win Percentage
 
Here is a list of goalies whose career winning percentage was over 50% (among goalies in the top 125 ever in total wins):


# Player Win %
1 Kenneth Dryden 65.0%
2 Ryan Miller 55.6%
3 Martin Brodeur 55.4%
4 Gerry Cheevers 55.0%
5 Bill Durnan 54.3%
6 Chris Osgood 54.0%
7 Patrick Roy 53.5%
8 Dominik Hasek 52.9%
9 George Hainsworth 52.9%
10 Bob Froese 52.9%
11 Clint Benedict 52.5%
12 Jacques Plante 52.2%
13 Andy Moog 52.2%
14 Henrik Lundqvist 52.1%
15 Evgeni Nabokov 52.0%
16 Niklas Backstrom 51.8%
17 Miikka Kiprusoff 51.7%
18 Tiny Thompson 51.4%
19 Marty Turco 51.3%
20 Michel Larocque 51.3%
21 Manny Legace 51.2%
22 Cam Ward 50.9%
23 Pete Peeters 50.3%
24 Ed Belfour 50.3%
25 Richard Wamsley 50.1%

First off - does anyone know if we can strip out OTW from these tables? There are too many modern tenders in there for me to believe. Not a dig on Ryan Miller and Lundqvist, but I just don't believe they're ahead of the greats on this measure if we nullify OTW.

Second - Ken Dryden is a man among fools here, a full 10% ahead of everyone. He obviously played on arguably the greatest team of all time and quit after peak, but winning 2 out of every 3 games is something that will probably never be equaled, even with overtime wins. I see he was rated 7th for goalies in the most recent ranking. Is he really behind Hall, for instance?

Third - Roy and Brodeur shine here as well, and taking out OTW are probably tied. In the regular season, at least, I believe they are near equals.

Thoughts?

seventieslord 11-24-2010 03:13 PM

I think the list is a little short. You're saying there are just 25 goalies with win percentages over 50% among the 125 with the most wins all-time? I'd imagine about 100 of them would have winning records.

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 29150166)
I think the list is a little short. You're saying there are just 25 goalies with win percentages over 50% among the 125 with the most wins all-time? I'd imagine about 100 of them would have winning records.

Ties plus OTL's constitute about 15% of the overall games played, so it's not that surprising. It's hard to break 50%.

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 03:27 PM

On the flip side, here's career losing percentage top 25:

# Player Losing %
1 Kenneth Dryden 14.4%
2 Gerry Cheevers 24.4%
3 Manny Legace 27.1%
4 Michel Larocque 28.5%
5 Chris Osgood 29.2%
6 Bill Durnan 29.2%
7 Andy Moog 29.3%
8 Jacques Plante 29.4%
9 Bob Froese 29.8%
10 Niklas Backstrom 29.8%
11 Dominik Hasek 30.3%
12 Marty Turco 30.4%
13 Martin Brodeur 30.6%
14 Patrick Roy 30.6%
15 Vesa Toskala 30.8%
16 George Hainsworth 31.2%
17 Wayne Stephenson 31.4%
18 Evgeni Nabokov 31.6%
19 Pete Peeters 31.7%
20 Ryan Miller 31.7%
21 Rejean Lemelin 32.0%
22 Richard Wamsley 32.2%
23 Bernie Parent 32.6%
24 Cristobal Huet 33.1%

Again, Dryden with an other wordly mark here -- he lost less than 3 out of every 20 games played. Wow!

Sens Rule 11-24-2010 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamRanford (Post 29150391)
On the flip side, here's career losing percentage top 25:

# Player Losing %
1 Kenneth Dryden 14.4%
2 Gerry Cheevers 24.4%
3 Manny Legace 27.1%
4 Michel Larocque 28.5%
5 Chris Osgood 29.2%
6 Bill Durnan 29.2%
7 Andy Moog 29.3%
8 Jacques Plante 29.4%
9 Bob Froese 29.8%
10 Niklas Backstrom 29.8%
11 Dominik Hasek 30.3%
12 Marty Turco 30.4%
13 Martin Brodeur 30.6%
14 Patrick Roy 30.6%
15 Vesa Toskala 30.8%
16 George Hainsworth 31.2%
17 Wayne Stephenson 31.4%
18 Evgeni Nabokov 31.6%
19 Pete Peeters 31.7%
20 Ryan Miller 31.7%
21 Rejean Lemelin 32.0%
22 Richard Wamsley 32.2%
23 Bernie Parent 32.6%
24 Cristobal Huet 33.1%

Again, Dryden with an other wordly mark here -- he lost less than 3 out of every 20 games played. Wow!

Hard to believe Hasek actually lost 30% of the games he started. Imagine if he had been on a good team in his prime and not Buffalo.

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 03:56 PM

Ok just to show a wider representation of goalies and with improved methodology, here's a list of any goalie with a greater than 50% winning percentage in any game he got tagged with a decision in (instead of as a % of games played). This list includes any goalie with over 20 wins in the league's history.

# Player W% 1st NHL Season
1 Ross Brooks 74.0% 1972-1973
2 Michal Neuvirth 71.9% 2008-2009
3 Kenneth Dryden 66.3% 1970-1971
4 Martin Prusek 64.6% 2001-2002
5 Antti Niemi 61.7% 2008-2009
6 Connie Dion 60.5% 1943-1944
7 Jimmy Howard 59.8% 2005-2006
8 Bob Froese 58.2% 1982-1983
9 Pekka Rinne 58.1% 2005-2006
10 Jaroslav Halak 58.0% 2006-2007
11 Brian Elliott 57.9% 2007-2008
12 Pelle Lindbergh 57.6% 1981-1982
13 Allan Jensen 57.2% 1980-1981
14 Ray Emery 56.9% 2002-2003
15 Manny Legace 56.7% 1998-1999
16 Gerry Cheevers 56.7% 1961-1962
17 Ryan Miller 56.6% 2002-2003
18 Jonathan Quick 56.3% 2007-2008
19 Chris Osgood 55.4% 1993-1994
20 Martin Brodeur 55.2% 1991-1992
21 Niklas Backstrom 54.7% 2006-2007
22 Andy Moog 54.5% 1980-1981
23 Georges Vezina 54.5% 1917-1918
24 Bill Durnan 54.5% 1943-1944
25 Michel Larocque 54.4% 1973-1974
26 Pete Peeters 54.3% 1978-1979
27 Marty Turco 54.2% 2000-2001
28 Ty Conklin 53.8% 2001-2002
29 Jonas Hiller 53.8% 2007-2008
30 Patrick Roy 53.7% 1984-1985
31 Dominik Hasek 53.6% 1990-1991
32 Henrik Lundqvist 53.2% 2005-2006
33 Evgeni Nabokov 53.2% 1999-2000
34 Vesa Toskala 53.1% 2000-2001
35 Scott Clemmensen 53.1% 2001-2002
36 George Hainsworth 52.9% 1926-1927
37 Cam Ward 52.9% 2005-2006
38 Jacques Plante 52.8% 1952-1953
39 Johan Holmqvist 52.7% 2000-2001
40 Miikka Kiprusoff 52.7% 2000-2001
41 Clint Benedict 52.6% 1917-1918
42 Richard Wamsley 52.0% 1980-1981
43 Richard Sevigny 51.9% 1978-1979
44 Martin Gerber 51.9% 2002-2003
45 Gilles Villemure 51.8% 1963-1964
46 David Aebischer 51.7% 2000-2001
47 Tim Thomas 51.5% 2002-2003
48 Tiny Thompson 51.4% 1928-1929
49 Marc-Andre Fleury 51.2% 2003-2004
50 Tuukka Rask 51.0% 2007-2008
51 Roman Cechmanek 50.9% 2000-2001
52 Rejean Lemelin 50.9% 1978-1979
53 Doug Keans 50.8% 1979-1980
54 Ed Belfour 50.5% 1988-1989
55 Cristobal Huet 50.4% 2002-2003
56 Ilya Bryzgalov 50.4% 2001-2002
57 Jim Hrivnak 50.0% 1989-1990

Doctor No 11-24-2010 04:02 PM

I'd recommend using points percentage instead of winning percentage.

Although wins are the easiest way to accomplish this, the goal in the NHL is to accumulate points.

Goalie Guru* 11-24-2010 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamRanford (Post 29150039)
Here is a list of goalies whose career winning percentage was over 50% (among goalies in the top 125 ever in total wins):


# Player Win %
1 Kenneth Dryden 65.0%
2 Ryan Miller 55.6%
3 Martin Brodeur 55.4%
4 Gerry Cheevers 55.0%
5 Bill Durnan 54.3%
6 Chris Osgood 54.0%
7 Patrick Roy 53.5%
8 Dominik Hasek 52.9%
9 George Hainsworth 52.9%
10 Bob Froese 52.9%
11 Clint Benedict 52.5%
12 Jacques Plante 52.2%
13 Andy Moog 52.2%
14 Henrik Lundqvist 52.1%
15 Evgeni Nabokov 52.0%
16 Niklas Backstrom 51.8%
17 Miikka Kiprusoff 51.7%
18 Tiny Thompson 51.4%
19 Marty Turco 51.3%
20 Michel Larocque 51.3%
21 Manny Legace 51.2%
22 Cam Ward 50.9%
23 Pete Peeters 50.3%
24 Ed Belfour 50.3%
25 Richard Wamsley 50.1%

First off - does anyone know if we can strip out OTW from these tables? There are too many modern tenders in there for me to believe. Not a dig on Ryan Miller and Lundqvist, but I just don't believe they're ahead of the greats on this measure if we nullify OTW.

Second - Ken Dryden is a man among fools here, a full 10% ahead of everyone. He obviously played on arguably the greatest team of all time and quit after peak, but winning 2 out of every 3 games is something that will probably never be equaled, even with overtime wins. I see he was rated 7th for goalies in the most recent ranking. Is he really behind Hall, for instance?

Third - Roy and Brodeur shine here as well, and taking out OTW are probably tied. In the regular season, at least, I believe they are near equals.

Thoughts?

Ken Dryden's backups in 173 games played, combined for a 70.5 winning percentage.

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor No (Post 29150959)
I'd recommend using points percentage instead of winning percentage.

Although wins are the easiest way to accomplish this, the goal in the NHL is to accumulate points.

Ok I believe this is points percentage - ((wins*2)+ties+OTL)/(total decision*2)

Top 50


# Player Points % 1st NHL Season

1 Ross Brooks 80.0% 1972-1973
2 Kenneth Dryden 75.8% 1970-1971
3 Michal Neuvirth 73.4% 2008-2009
4 Martin Prusek 69.8% 2001-2002
5 Antti Niemi 68.1% 2008-2009
6 Jimmy Howard 67.1% 2005-2006
7 Connie Dion 65.8% 1943-1944
8 Gerry Cheevers 65.8% 1961-1962
9 Manny Legace 63.3% 1998-1999
10 Pekka Rinne 62.8% 2005-2006
11 Bob Froese 62.7% 1982-1983
12 Chris Osgood 62.7% 1993-1994
13 Allan Jensen 62.7% 1980-1981
14 Pelle Lindbergh 62.6% 1981-1982
15 Bill Durnan 62.6% 1943-1944
16 Martin Brodeur 62.4% 1991-1992
17 Ryan Miller 62.2% 2002-2003
18 Michel Larocque 62.1% 1973-1974
19 Jaroslav Halak 62.1% 2006-2007
20 Andy Moog 62.0% 1980-1981
21 Ray Emery 61.8% 2002-2003
22 Niklas Backstrom 61.6% 2006-2007
23 Brian Elliott 61.6% 2007-2008
24 Jacques Plante 61.5% 1952-1953
25 Patrick Roy 61.5% 1984-1985
26 Dominik Hasek 61.4% 1990-1991
27 Marty Turco 61.0% 2000-2001
28 George Hainsworth 60.9% 1926-1927
29 Roman Cechmanek 60.6% 2000-2001
30 Evgeni Nabokov 60.4% 1999-2000
31 Pete Peeters 60.0% 1978-1979
32 Ty Conklin 59.8% 2001-2002
33 Jonathan Quick 59.8% 2007-2008
34 Henrik Lundqvist 59.7% 2005-2006
35 Vesa Toskala 59.7% 2000-2001
36 Gilles Villemure 59.3% 1963-1964
37 Richard Wamsley 59.3% 1980-1981
38 Miikka Kiprusoff 58.9% 2000-2001
39 Ed Belfour 58.6% 1988-1989
40 Doug Keans 58.5% 1979-1980
41 Richard Sevigny 58.4% 1978-1979
42 Tim Thomas 58.3% 2002-2003
43 Tiny Thompson 58.1% 1928-1929
44 Rejean Lemelin 58.0% 1978-1979
45 Tuukka Rask 57.8% 2007-2008
46 David Aebischer 57.8% 2000-2001
47 Johan Holmqvist 57.7% 2000-2001
48 Cristobal Huet 57.6% 2002-2003
49 Martin Gerber 57.5% 2002-2003
50 Scott Clemmensen 57.4% 2001-2002

Doctor No 11-24-2010 04:16 PM

Yep - that's exactly it. Thanks!

(You could adjust for the baseline changing from 50% to 50%+X with the introduction of OTL points post-lockout, but that's a bit of a pain)

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalie Guru (Post 29150960)
Ken Dryden's backups in 173 games played, combined for a 70.5 winning percentage.

Who were his main back-ups during that era? They must have played on much worse teams before or afterwards, as Dryden looks good even on the expanded list.

Who would our #1 guy Ross have backed up in the early 70s?

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamRanford (Post 29151286)

Who would our #1 guy Ross have backed up in the early 70s?

Well, Ross Brooks seems to have played between 1972-1975, the exact years Cheevers was in the WHA between Bruins stints. Any ideas who was the starting goalie for Boston those years?

UPDATE: a little research tells me it was Gilles Gilbert for the last two seasons of Ross Brooks' career, but the first is still a mystery. Gilbert does pretty well on this measure himself, putting up a points % of 56.2%, good for 68th overall... not bad considering he played for some truly terrible North Stars and Red Wings clubs at the bookends of his career.

The more I think about it, the more I think that a backup is probably very likely to do well in comparison to a starter the same year. I mean, backups get played usually against the weaker teams, and they also get a lot more rest during the season. I still think Dryden's accomplishments in this measure are very impressive.

brianscot 11-24-2010 05:37 PM

Eddie Johnston was Boston's main goalie during that first season without Cheevers. (72-73).

He had injury issues that year and Ross Brooks also played that season.

Things got so tough injury wise that Boston took a chance on 44 year old Jacques Plante.

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianscot (Post 29152419)
Eddie Johnston was Boston's main goalie during that first season without Cheevers. (72-73).

He had injury issues that year and Ross Brooks also played that season.

Things got so tough injury wise that Boston took a chance on 44 year old Jacques Plante.

How would you rate Brooks as a goalie? Is this just one of those statistical anomalies, or was he actually an unheralded gem? He only played in 54 games, so it would be akin to Niemi quitting the game in two weeks in terms of career length ... but even so, Brooks has a 12% higher points % than Niemi, who's played for a dominant cup champion and a very good Sharks squad...

brianscot 11-24-2010 05:52 PM

Ross Brooks was a dedicated career minor leaguer mostly with Providence in the AHL.

He was 36 when he finally made the Bruins and obviously benefited from Cheevers leaving, Johnston getting injured, and playing on a powerhouse team.

It goes without saying that if Brooks had been a gem, he would have made it sooner.

I'd have to credit his record to playing on the Orr/Esposito Bruins. If he had been that good, they wouldn't have traded for the over 40 Plante.

Nor would they have traded a very good second line center (Fred Stanfield) in order to get Gilles Gilbert.

Doctor No 11-24-2010 05:55 PM

Brooks was one of the many goaltenders who was held back in his prime by the six-team league. Having said that, he benefitted from the Bruins more than the Bruins benefitted from him.

It could be done with either Sebastien Tremblay's book or the Hockey Reference Project, but it'd be interesting to see the strength of opponents Brooks faced in comparison to Johnston and Gilbert (Boston's starters during those seasons).

Scott1980 11-24-2010 08:08 PM

Brooks is one of those NHL stories that has GOT to be made into a movie.

Here's his brief story.

At some point in the 70s, he got released by his minor league team. Now understand this, he had never played in the NHL at this point.

So called around everywhere in the minors, and then decided, what the hell, call the NHL. The Bruins took a chance on his, and the rest is history.

Great story.

After the 71/72 season, Cheevers went to the WHA and the Bruins went with Johnston, Brooks, John Adams and later Parent.

Johnston was traded to the Leafs for Plante.

The four men went a combined 51-22-5!

But it was decided that the Bruins needed some youth in goal so Gilbert was acquired the next season. Adams was traded to San Diego (WHL) for Ken Broderick who was decent for a few seasons.

WilliamRanford 11-24-2010 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1980 (Post 29157325)
Brooks is one of those NHL stories that has GOT to be made into a movie.

Here's his brief story.

At some point in the 70s, he got released by his minor league team. Now understand this, he had never played in the NHL at this point.

So called around everywhere in the minors, and then decided, what the hell, call the NHL. The Bruins took a chance on his, and the rest is history.

Great story.

After the 71/72 season, Cheevers went to the WHA and the Bruins went with Johnston, Brooks, John Adams and later Parent.

Johnston was traded to the Leafs for Plante.

The four men went a combined 51-22-5!

But it was decided that the Bruins needed some youth in goal so Gilbert was acquired the next season. Adams was traded to San Diego (WHL) for Ken Broderick who was decent for a few seasons.

Great story, thanks for sharing. So a guy who talked his way into the NHL is now owner of its best all-time points/win percentage. On one hand, he only played 57 games, but on the other, that's a decent chunk of work over three NHL seasons. I wonder if he has any idea.

Scott1980 11-25-2010 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamRanford (Post 29160781)
Great story, thanks for sharing. So a guy who talked his way into the NHL is now owner of its best all-time points/win percentage. On one hand, he only played 57 games, but on the other, that's a decent chunk of work over three NHL seasons. I wonder if he has any idea.

First Jewish goaltender in the NHL!

You know, at one point he won 14 games in a row to tie a mark set by Tiny Thompson?

Goalie Guru* 11-26-2010 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianscot (Post 29152610)
Ross Brooks was a dedicated career minor leaguer mostly with Providence in the AHL.

He was 36 when he finally made the Bruins and obviously benefited from Cheevers leaving, Johnston getting injured, and playing on a powerhouse team.

It goes without saying that if Brooks had been a gem, he would have made it sooner.

I'd have to credit his record to playing on the Orr/Esposito Bruins. If he had been that good, they wouldn't have traded for the over 40 Plante.

Nor would they have traded a very good second line center (Fred Stanfield) in order to get Gilles Gilbert.

With all do respect here is where the problem lays and why the 'star' goalies are over rated. I'll try and explain.

When a backup does well or a rookie or a guy in the league for short periods of time it's because he was "playing on a powerhouse team". When Brodeur, Dryden, and Sawchuck do it, it's because they were great goalies.

If Ross Brooks played for this same Boston team when he was 21 years old and not 36, or young like Brodeur, Dryden and Sawchuck, when they played for powerhouses, then he would "have been a gem". Timing and reputation is everything as a goalie.

"If he had been that good", he was that good! You don't get that lucky over 54 starts in the NHL. You have totally judged him because he played on crappy teams and you automatically assumed he couldn't have been any good. Tim Thomas!

"I'd have to credit his record to playing on the Orr/Esposito Bruins", and so why can't we do that with Dryden, Brodeur and Parent?

See the double standards here. This is usually in the debates I have with people that the 'consitancy' word starts to fly around the room.
Thes egoalies were great Guru because they did it for many years. Well, the teams were great for many years.

pluppe 11-27-2010 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamRanford (Post 29150391)
On the flip side, here's career losing percentage top 25:

# Player Losing %
1 Kenneth Dryden 14.4%
2 Gerry Cheevers 24.4%
3 Manny Legace 27.1%
4 Michel Larocque 28.5%
5 Chris Osgood 29.2%
6 Bill Durnan 29.2%
7 Andy Moog 29.3%
8 Jacques Plante 29.4%
9 Bob Froese 29.8%
10 Niklas Backstrom 29.8%
11 Dominik Hasek 30.3%
12 Marty Turco 30.4%
13 Martin Brodeur 30.6%
14 Patrick Roy 30.6%

15 Vesa Toskala 30.8%
16 George Hainsworth 31.2%
17 Wayne Stephenson 31.4%
18 Evgeni Nabokov 31.6%
19 Pete Peeters 31.7%
20 Ryan Miller 31.7%
21 Rejean Lemelin 32.0%
22 Richard Wamsley 32.2%
23 Bernie Parent 32.6%
24 Cristobal Huet 33.1%

Again, Dryden with an other wordly mark here -- he lost less than 3 out of every 20 games played. Wow!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalie Guru (Post 29190871)
With all do respect here is where the problem lays and why the 'star' goalies are over rated. I'll try and explain.

When a backup does well or a rookie or a guy in the league for short periods of time it's because he was "playing on a powerhouse team". When Brodeur, Dryden, and Sawchuck do it, it's because they were great goalies.

If Ross Brooks played for this same Boston team when he was 21 years old and not 36, or young like Brodeur, Dryden and Sawchuck, when they played for powerhouses, then he would "have been a gem". Timing and reputation is everything as a goalie.

"If he had been that good", he was that good! You don't get that lucky over 54 starts in the NHL. You have totally judged him because he played on crappy teams and you automatically assumed he couldn't have been any good. Tim Thomas!

"I'd have to credit his record to playing on the Orr/Esposito Bruins", and so why can't we do that with Dryden, Brodeur and Parent?

See the double standards here. This is usually in the debates I have with people that the 'consitancy' word starts to fly around the room.
Thes egoalies were great Guru because they did it for many years. Well, the teams were great for many years.

Goalie Guru.

please try to explain how Hasek lose% is lower than Brodeur and Roy?

because that really blows my mind! and I guess you mean it should not?


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