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-   -   OT: New (CFL) Stadium Deal In Winnipeg (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=855838)

AllByDesign 12-21-2010 06:11 PM

OT: New (CFL) Stadium Deal In Winnipeg
 
http://tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=346390


I post this for the parallels between community involvement with the NHL in efforts to update and construct new facilities.

I.E. The Islanders on Long Island and The Coyotes in Glendale. Is this a potential Boondoggle for taxpayers, or a great formula to get business done for NHL markets? I know we've seen a certain extreme in Glendale, but I start this thread with the request that Glendale's current struggles as it parlays to Hulsizer's lease as an example. If Glendale is to be observed as a model if we could try and keep it to the original plans and the efforts to get a deal done in regards to their building.

I apologize in advance if this causes and un-due stress.

ABD

Killion 12-21-2010 06:44 PM

Interesting. Question's; not IF but WHEN Winnipeg receives an NHL Team;

A) Wont corporate support go to the MTS, not the Bombers new stadium?. The corporate sector in Wpg will be paying NHL not AHL rates, less to go round.

B) Seasons Ticket Holders; wont it be harder to sell the public on buying ST's to the Bombers competing for dollars with the NHL or do you think theirs enough CFL fans in Winnipeg to support the franchise regardless?.

C) It would appear that the bulk of the costs for construction are being born by the Provincial Government & ultimately the taxpayer. Personally, I dont have a problem with this formula (though privately is preferable) provided the process is open & transparent, the public willing, the business plan sound. And therein lies the problem; Dude wont release the entire business plan & cost ana/bfts. :naughty:

Therefore;

1. Will the CFL even EXIST in 5-10-15yrs?. No one east of Manitoba could give a Tinkers about it.

2. If it folds, or corporate & ticket sales dry up, you, the taxpayer, are on the hook & might just as well gift it to the University now & avoid trouble down the road no?.

3. Is their a possibility Chipman & Tompson are silent investors who plan to form their own Super League throughout North America with a shorter season, half the games played outdoors, no cap & a honkin big deal with NBC, ESPN, TSN & CTV, the stadium step one of a plan to annihilate the NHL should they fail to deliver "the package" to Portage & Main?. :naughty::laugh:

wjhl2009fan 12-21-2010 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29707877)
Interesting. Question's; not IF but WHEN Winnipeg receives an NHL Team;

A) Wont corporate support go to the MTS, not the Bombers new stadium?. The corporate sector in Wpg will be paying NHL not AHL rates, less to go round.

B) Seasons Ticket Holders; wont it be harder to sell the public on buying ST's to the Bombers competing for dollars with the NHL or do you think theirs enough CFL fans in Winnipeg to support the franchise regardless?.

C) It would appear that the bulk of the costs for construction are being born by the Provincial Government & ultimately the taxpayer. Personally, I dont have a problem with this formula (though privately is preferable) provided the process is open & transparent, the public willing, the business plan sound. And therein lies the problem; Dude wont release the entire business plan & cost ana/bfts. :naughty:

Therefore;

1. Will the CFL even EXIST in 5-10-15yrs?. No one east of Manitoba could give a Tinkers about it.

2. If it folds, or corporate & ticket sales dry up, you, the taxpayer, are on the hook & might just as well gift it to the University now & avoid trouble down the road no?.

3. Is their a possibility Chipman & Tompson are silent investors who plan to form their own Super League throughout North America with a shorter season, half the games played outdoors, no cap & a honkin big deal with NBC, ESPN, TSN & CTV, the stadium step one of a plan to annihilate the NHL should they fail to deliver "the package" to Portage & Main?. :naughty::laugh:

The cfl is doing well attendance it will be around for some time to come.

AllByDesign 12-21-2010 06:51 PM

Well Killion, it may be a future site for the Heritage Classic...


Another point people may not be aware of is that the team is community owned. Also, as part of Chipman's deal with the MTS centre, all entertainment dollars are property of TNSE so the Bombers don't have any entertainment dollars to help in the kitty... other than the proposed ticket surcharges.

Killion 12-21-2010 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan (Post 29707915)
The cfl is doing well attendance it will be around for some time to come.

One guy owns 2 teams. Montreal is bleeding money profusely, never mind Hamilton & worse yet, Toronto. 3 Zombie Franchises. I give it 5yrs. Can the CFL exist & be profitable with teams in Manitoba, Sask/Al/BC?. Is it worth a $200M+ gamble, a roll of the dice?. Your tax dollars.

Killion 12-21-2010 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllByDesign (Post 29707974)
Another point people may not be aware of is that the team is community owned.

I wasnt aware of that. Like Green Bay of the NFL or the Toledo Mud Hens (yepp, Corporal Klingers hometown team is real & community owned) of Single 'A' baseball. Like I said, provided the process is transparent & the public willing, no problem.

Confucius 12-21-2010 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29708194)
One guy owns 2 teams. Montreal is bleeding money profusely, never mind Hamilton & worse yet, Toronto. 3 Zombie Franchises. I give it 5yrs. Can the CFL exist & be profitable with teams in Manitoba, Sask/Al/BC?. Is it worth a $200M+ gamble, a roll of the dice?. Your tax dollars.

You're on, It's been around for over 100 years, noway it goes under in 5 years. It may vacate some cities for a time, but it will march on.

Killion 12-21-2010 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful (Post 29708412)
You're on, It's been around for over 100 years, noway it goes under in 5 years. It may vacate some cities for a time, but it will march on.

I agree. Its slowly marching out of Quebec, Ontario, the Prairies, across the Rockies & right on into the Pacific. RIP. :naughty:

AllByDesign 12-21-2010 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29708349)
Like I said, provided the process is transparent & the public willing, no problem.

Transparent... Well, when has anything government oriented been transparent? I want to be cautious with what I say because I do business with a few players involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29708890)
I agree. Its slowly marching out of Quebec, Ontario, the Prairies, across the Rockies & right on into the Pacific. RIP. :naughty:

The CFL is more robust than it has been in decades. Their TV deal entered a bidding war, and the TV audience is setting records. I agree there is a Toronto apathy when it comes to the CFL, but the ratings suggest things are on an up projection.

That's not what this about though. Let's look at this from a Sports Franchise, Govermental relationship. Is this a deal that could be duplicated in New York? Does Wang's other interest blind him from making a sports deal with government?

funky11 12-21-2010 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29708890)
I agree. Its slowly marching out of Quebec, Ontario, the Prairies, across the Rockies & right on into the Pacific. RIP. :naughty:

:shakehead I am getting the feeling you have no idea what you are talking about. You must just be CFL hater.

Melrose Munch 12-21-2010 08:06 PM

CFL is doing well because of the TV contract. Period. When it was on CBC it was about to die.

Melrose Munch 12-21-2010 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funky11 (Post 29709298)
:shakehead I am getting the feeling you have no idea what you are talking about. You must just be CFL hater.

Hamilton is having stadium problems
Toronto is Toronto
Montreal only recently came back.
He is just being real.

But yes ABD this is a deal that could be duplicated and should be, but won't

dkehler 12-21-2010 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose Munch (Post 29709600)
Hamilton is having stadium problems
Toronto is Toronto
Montreal only recently came back.
He is just being real.

But yes ABD this is a deal that could be duplicated and should be, but won't

Hamilton's only stadium problem is where it should be built.

1996 is not "recently". And they just expanded their stadium in Montréal.

The CFL is doing about as well as it ever has at this point and has been around for well over 100 years. It's not going anywhere. :shakehead

krudmonk 12-21-2010 08:42 PM

I thought Toronto was the only city that didn't care much about the CFL, because they want to be part of the US.

CHRDANHUTCH 12-21-2010 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29708349)
I wasnt aware of that. Like Green Bay of the NFL or the Toledo Mud Hens (yepp, Corporal Klingers hometown team is real & community owned) of Single 'A' baseball. Like I said, provided the process is transparent & the public willing, no problem.

if the Mud Hens are, so are the Walleye, Killion (common ownership), and no, the Mud Hens are Triple A, NOT Single A

blueandgoldguy 12-21-2010 09:04 PM

Wow. Lots of uninformed comments on here regarding the CFL...except for AllByDesign.

First of all, the stadium problems in Hamilton will be resolved by the end of this winter. Everything leading up to this point was just posturing by the Hamilton city council and Bob Young, the owner of the TiCats. In the end, he won't turn down $75 million or more in gov't money for a new stadium despite the location --rail yards-- not being his first choice.

Second, while it's true that fan support in "the Center of The Universe" has been mediocre for nearly 3 decades, that team is not going anywhere. I believe a a TV contract, particularly a good one, requires having a team in the media capital in Canada.

The government in Ottawa has approved a plan for $100+ million refurbishment of the Lansdowne Park which will include all the amenities a new stadium needs. ie. Corporate suites, increased advertising space, more concessions...

University football is huge in Quebec city. Laval averages 15000 per game. I truly believe the only thing holding back Quebec City from attaining a CFL team is lack of a 25000-30000 seat stadium. With a new stadium, it would only be a matter of when, not if CFL football would be coming there. Maybe the city and the province should divert some of the $200 million towards the proposed arena towards a future CFL stadium :naughty:

Killion, Montreal is not "bleeding money profusely." If anything, they are now making money hand over fist. They just expanded the stadium by 5,000 seats and 15-20 suites. They sell out every game, charge the highest ticket prices in the league plus gain extra revenue from 1 playoff game per year at Olympic Stadium (which this year drew 58,000 people).

Melrose Mulch, Montreal did not recently come back. They have been back for 15 seasons and have sold out for 11-12 staight seasons. Also, while the TV contract helps, it hardly saved the league. It only works out to $1 - $1.5 million per team per season. Although the increased coverage on tsn certainly helps. AS AllByDesign stated, ratings are very high (1.1 million and 2 million for East and West Final respectively which is approx. the same as Hockey Night in Canada) and the Grey Cup drew 6.25 million viewers.

AS for the other teams, Winnipeg paid off their debt a few years back and even with their losses last year are still $1.5 - 2 million in the black overall.

Calgary and Edmonton consistently draw 30,000+ per season and have been profitable for the past several seasons and will be for the forseeable future.

BC has had a decrease in attendance over the last few seasons after drawing considerably well for several seasons and this is a cause for concern. However, hosting the Grey Cup in a refurbished stadium next year should result in a tidy profit.

I don't see any zombie franchises here....

CFL is as healthy as it has been in 30-40 years, and with a new TV contract and new stadiums on the way over the next few years it will only get healthier.

finchster 12-21-2010 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 29708194)
One guy owns 2 teams. Montreal is bleeding money profusely, never mind Hamilton & worse yet, Toronto. 3 Zombie Franchises. I give it 5yrs. Can the CFL exist & be profitable with teams in Manitoba, Sask/Al/BC?. Is it worth a $200M+ gamble, a roll of the dice?. Your tax dollars.

:laugh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 29711199)
Wow. Lots of uninformed comments on here regarding the CFL...except for AllByDesign.

First of all, the stadium problems in Hamilton will be resolved by the end of this winter. Everything leading up to this point was just posturing by the Hamilton city council and Bob Young, the owner of the TiCats. In the end, he won't turn down $75 million or more in gov't money for a new stadium despite the location --rail yards-- not being his first choice.

Second, while it's true that fan support in "the Center of The Universe" has been mediocre for nearly 3 decades, that team is not going anywhere. I believe a a TV contract, particularly a good one, requires having a team in the media capital in Canada.

The government in Ottawa has approved a plan for $100+ million refurbishment of the Lansdowne Park which will include all the amenities a new stadium needs. ie. Corporate suites, increased advertising space, more concessions...

University football is huge in Quebec city. Laval averages 15000 per game. I truly believe the only thing holding back Quebec City from attaining a CFL team is lack of a 25000-30000 seat stadium. With a new stadium, it would only be a matter of when, not if CFL football would be coming there. Maybe the city and the province should divert some of the $200 million towards the proposed arena towards a future CFL stadium :naughty:

Killion, Montreal is not "bleeding money profusely." If anything, they are now making money hand over fist. They just expanded the stadium by 5,000 seats and 15-20 suites. They sell out every game, charge the highest ticket prices in the league plus gain extra revenue from 1 playoff game per year at Olympic Stadium (which this year drew 58,000 people).

Melrose Mulch, Montreal did not recently come back. They have been back for 15 seasons and have sold out for 11-12 staight seasons. Also, while the TV contract helps, it hardly saved the league. It only works out to $1 - $1.5 million per team per season. Although the increased coverage on tsn certainly helps. AS AllByDesign stated, ratings are very high (1.1 million and 2 million for East and West Final respectively which is approx. the same as Hockey Night in Canada) and the Grey Cup drew 6.25 million viewers.

AS for the other teams, Winnipeg paid off their debt a few years back and even with their losses last year are still $1.5 - 2 million in the black overall.

Calgary and Edmonton consistently draw 30,000+ per season and have been profitable for the past several seasons and will be for the forseeable future.

BC has had a decrease in attendance over the last few seasons after drawing considerably well for several seasons and this is a cause for concern. However, hosting the Grey Cup in a refurbished stadium next year should result in a tidy profit.

I don't see any zombie franchises here....

CFL is as healthy as it has been in 30-40 years, and with a new TV contract and new stadiums on the way over the next few years it will only get healthier.

you have it dead on

Melrose Munch 12-21-2010 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkehler (Post 29710471)
Hamilton's only stadium problem is where it should be built.

1996 is not "recently". And they just expanded their stadium in Montréal.

The CFL is doing about as well as it ever has at this point and has been around for well over 100 years. It's not going anywhere. :shakehead

I mean fan support. Montreal has only had fan support recently. I cannot believe I had to clarify that! I know Montreal came back in 1996, I have the article from the TO Star in my room! Holy! They werent doing well in the big O. Hamilton just had a funding shortfall. I live here, it was in the news.

Melrose Munch 12-21-2010 09:44 PM

Toronto is losing money
Hamilton is losing money.
I'm pretty sure Winnipeg is too as of now.

Theres three.

finchster 12-21-2010 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose Munch (Post 29712331)
I mean fan support. Montreal has only had fan support recently. I cannot believe I had to clarify that! I know Montreal came back in 1996, I have the article from the TO Star in my room! Holy! They werent doing well in the big O. Hamilton just had a funding shortfall. I live here, it was in the news.

:amazed: you mean to tell me a sports team did poorly in the worst stadium ever built which was also double the needed seats? I am surprised

funky11 12-21-2010 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose Munch (Post 29712451)
Toronto is losing money
Hamilton is losing money.
I'm pretty sure Winnipeg is too as of now.

Theres three.

that's 3/8 and how many teams are losing money in the NHL?

Melrose Munch 12-21-2010 10:08 PM

6/30 NHL teams losing money = 20% percent of teams.
3/8 CFL team = 37.5% percent of teams

Of course the CFL only has eight teams. this is not comparable really.

Melrose Munch 12-21-2010 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 29712774)
:amazed: you mean to tell me a sports team did poorly in the worst stadium ever built which was also double the needed seats? I am surprised

BS. The Argos get 22000 at Skydome. They suck bad.

Evil Doctor 12-21-2010 10:10 PM

No good can come from this thread....

blueandgoldguy 12-21-2010 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose Munch (Post 29712451)
Toronto is losing money
Hamilton is losing money.
I'm pretty sure Winnipeg is too as of now.

Theres three.

I'm sure two of those lost money, Hamilton and Toronto. Winnipeg will be pretty close to break even.

Last year the Bombers had a slightly lower average attendance and lost $1.2 million although $800,000 of that was to pay off Mike Kelly and his coaching staff to get lost. I suspect with the slight increase attendance, coupled with increased revenues from other sources (ie. advertising) the Bombers might have broken even.

I suspect that BC lost money given that they only averaged 24,000 per game and did not benefit from a home playoff game. Again, that will be easily offset next year with the move back into the refurbished stadium coupled with a Grey Cup and the secondary events that it brings.

Three teams losing money in the league is not a big deal especially when you are talking about great owners (Braley and Young) incurring those losses. After all, there are what, 12-16 teams in the NHL losing money. PUt's things in perspective.


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