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-   -   Westgarth/Clifford Pugilistic Fury Discussion (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=856243)

Muzzinga 12-22-2010 10:25 AM

Westgarth/Clifford Pugilistic Fury Discussion
 
Its a real shame Westgarth wasn't in the lineup, because Koci really took liberties against our top guys running them over any chance he got because he wasn't intimidated at all.

Oh no wait, I imagined that because i've clearly never played hockey in my life, herp derp

Herby 12-22-2010 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw1tch (Post 29721093)
Its a real shame Westgarth wasn't in the lineup, because Koci really took liberties against our top guys running them over any chance he got because he wasn't intimidated at all.

Oh no wait, I imagined that because i've clearly never played hockey in my life, herp derp

Nice to see the Kings ice the best team possible instead of letting the other squad dictate who we play. Other teams have been winning for years without a goon, why not us.

This team is so much better and more exciting to watch when they roll 4 good lines like they did last night.

The west is far to tight and points are at such a premium it makes no sense to dress a goon except in very rare situations, especially since Murray loves rolling 4 lines, with or without a goon.

BigKing 12-22-2010 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw1tch (Post 29721093)
Its a real shame Westgarth wasn't in the lineup, because Koci really took liberties against our top guys running them over any chance he got because he wasn't intimidated at all.

Oh no wait, I imagined that because i've clearly never played hockey in my life, herp derp

Perhaps Koci didn't take any liberties in a 5-0 blow out because, I don't know, he wasn't even dressed?

Love how people are taking shots at Westgarth after he's been putting together his best play of the season as of late. The Avs are one of the softest teams in the league, especially when they are missing Stewart, MacLeod and scratching Koci. Visiting team hands their lineup in first so Sacco scratched Koci since Westy wasn't in. If this game were in LA and Sacco had Koci in, then Murray would have dressed Westgarth and, best part, they still would have won 5-0.

I find it hilarious that people want to try and link the Kings losing with dressing Westgarth. Of course the team is going to be more skilled when substituting a 7-time 20 goal scorer for an enforcer. I understand that the point is to ice the best team but this group of players has still not proven that they can play tough, physical hockey against a tough team without an enforcer in the lineup. They can do it when going up against soft teams like Detroit and a depleted Avs squad, but many of the key players play softer against tough squads when Murray doesn't dress a HW.

Kopitar going hard last night, even checking people? It's because the Avs are soft. Everybody wants him to play like that every game but dude doesn't take it hard to the net as much as he should. Not surprising to me or anyone who understands the physical aspect of the game that he looked like a different player against both Detroit and Colorado.

They will eventually get to the point where they don't need a heavyweight to feel secure, mainly due to the emergence of Clifford. Cliff will be huge come playoff time as the HW's go into hibernation and the Kings ice a team with him, Simmonds and Greene. Until then, I want to see Westy in the lineup when the Kings appear to be outgunned. I know the team played great so you may not want to make a lineup change for the Edmonton game, but if they play MacIntyre and Stortini, Murray better dress Westgarth. The fact that the score could (should) get out of hand makes it a requirement IMO. Rolling 4 lines of skilled players is nice, but having to scrape some of them off the ice and sit them on IR isn't that awesome.

I think it's widely known that I'm a huge fight fan, what with being the guy that provided the footage for the Kings Fight Club site, but I've already become comfortable with not dressing a HW when playing a team who doesn't dress one. That's why Clifford is so huge for this team...having a guy who can go with nearly anybody (Bissonete in pre-season and he fought the biggest HW's in the OHL) while playing the game will make a HW redundant for the Kings eventually. Until that time, everyone can cry about Westgarth all they want but he isn't going anywhere and, new NHL or not, he is still needed for this current Kings squad.

Oh, and Westgarth doesn't give the puck away as much as Smyth does. Jesus Christ is that guy horrible with the puck. I know that doesn't tie into my enforcer piece above, but he stuck out like a sore thumb last night. That was my only negative reaction to last night's game.

Muzzinga 12-22-2010 12:39 PM

you missed the joke BigKing. In the GDT, I mentioned that i liked the fact that Westgarth wasn't dressed because we would need to roll 4 scoring lines vs the high flying Avs offence. I was then 'schooled' by 2 posters that Westgarth was needed in the lineup to stop Koci doing damage, and that i have no clue what im talking about because i have clearly never played hockey before in my life

Its just nice that those people were wrong after talking like that thinking they knew everything because they play in a sunday league every now and then

Reaper45 12-22-2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw1tch (Post 29723155)
you missed the joke BigKing. In the GDT, I mentioned that i liked the fact that Westgarth wasn't dressed because we would need to roll 4 scoring lines vs the high flying Avs offence. I was then 'schooled' by 2 posters that Westgarth was needed in the lineup to stop Koci doing damage, and that i have no clue what im talking about because i have clearly never played hockey before in my life

Its just nice that those people were wrong after talking like that thinking they knew everything because they play in a sunday league every now and then

I said it, but Koci didn't play, how do we know what would've happened otherwise?

Johnny Utah 12-22-2010 02:24 PM

Will be interesting if Westy gets back into the line-up especially with the Oilers, Ducks and Flyers coming up.

Kurrilino 12-22-2010 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigKing (Post 29722366)
Perhaps Koci didn't take any liberties in a 5-0 blow out because, I don't know, he wasn't even dressed?

Love how people are taking shots at Westgarth after he's been putting together his best play of the season as of late. The Avs are one of the softest teams in the league, especially when they are missing Stewart, MacLeod and scratching Koci. Visiting team hands their lineup in first so Sacco scratched Koci since Westy wasn't in. If this game were in LA and Sacco had Koci in, then Murray would have dressed Westgarth and, best part, they still would have won 5-0.


I think it's widely known that I'm a huge fight fan, what with being the guy that provided the footage for the Kings Fight Club site, but I've already become comfortable with not dressing a HW when playing a team who doesn't dress one. That's why Clifford is so huge for this team...having a guy who can go with nearly anybody (Bissonete in pre-season and he fought the biggest HW's in the OHL) while playing the game will make a HW redundant for the Kings eventually. Until that time, everyone can cry about Westgarth all they want but he isn't going anywhere and, new NHL or not, he is still needed for this current Kings squad.

Oh, and Westgarth doesn't give the puck away as much as Smyth does. Jesus Christ is that guy horrible with the puck. I know that doesn't tie into my enforcer piece above, but he stuck out like a sore thumb last night. That was my only negative reaction to last night's game.

Can't wait the NHL bans fighting.
It is such a nice game disturbed by 2 huge idiots who doesn't have any clue how to play hackey. Just 1 wrong guys makes acomplete line useless.

And can anyone explain me please what fighting actually is doing ?????
The opponents stop checking Kopitar because Westgarth is dressed and plays 4 minutes on the 4th line ?????
Do Simmondsw or Clifford stop playing hard because the other guys dressed a clown in thier 4th line ??????
I highly doubt it. I hope and pray the NHL takes this option away from our coach because this moron still plays 70's hockey.
I'm always jellous when other teams 3rd or 4th line score against us and we block players like Richardson or Clifford because we can't risk to send our 4th line out.

Please NHL take this option away from the few left over idiots or better AEG fires Murray and the other teams keep their moronic coaches

Johnny Utah 12-22-2010 02:34 PM

Intimidation is still a huge part of hockey buddy....and guys like Doughty, Johnson and Kopitar feel way more comfortable when a guy like Westgarth is on the ice.

Not rocket science and I've made the analogy before, I've walked into a bar with a few of my friends and got into altercations with other groups of guys, but when one of my friends is bigger than the rest, the other group of dudes are less likely to talk back or do anything. And when my one bigger friend isn't there, the other guys are gonna be talking more smack and more likely to throw a punch.

Go watch the Oil Change on NHL network and see what Tambellini and Renney said this off-season...they wanted either Laraque or Big Mac to protect there young players and give them space.

So you can give your opinion all you want, but experienced, qualifited and currently employed hockey minds still disagree with you. So you can GM from the computer, but things aren't changing...maybe there are more guys like Boll around now, dudes that aren't as big and can skate better and add a few more points than say a Goddard or Shelley, but there will always be fighting and intimidation in the sport of hockey.

Go to El Segundo, wait after practice and ask Kopitar, Richardson or any King about intimidation and having an enforcer. I guarantee you they will agree that they like having Westy, Ivanans in the line-up esoecially agaisnt tougher teams. The won't have to worry about elbows, late hits, etc...they have happen but someone will have to answer for them.

I will run around all day on a punch of smaller guys too if I knew I wouldn't have to take a punch to the face. Getting into a fight is scarey, I don't care who you are, and knowing you might have to fight a top AHL fighter and upcoming NHL fighter like Westgarth is not something anyone looks forward too...

BigKing 12-22-2010 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw1tch (Post 29723155)
you missed the joke BigKing. In the GDT, I mentioned that i liked the fact that Westgarth wasn't dressed because we would need to roll 4 scoring lines vs the high flying Avs offence. I was then 'schooled' by 2 posters that Westgarth was needed in the lineup to stop Koci doing damage, and that i have no clue what im talking about because i have clearly never played hockey before in my life

Its just nice that those people were wrong after talking like that thinking they knew everything because they play in a sunday league every now and then

I was aware of the conversation you were referring to which is why I stated that Koci didn't play. If the joke was that Koci didn't run anyone because he wasn't even playing then, yes, I mistook your last post as serious.

On the other hand, there are numerous jabs taken at Westgarth in this thread so I felt compelled to post on the subject.

Fishhead 12-22-2010 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Utah (Post 29724946)
Will be interesting if Westy gets back into the line-up especially with the Oilers, Ducks and Flyers coming up.

All 3 of those teams have heavies that need to be handled. I would hope he sees action against the Ducks and Flyers at a minimum, hopefully all 3.

Johnny Utah 12-22-2010 05:25 PM

Who do the Kings sit now? Who comes out for Westy occasionally? Richardson? Lewis? Sturm?

Ziggy Stardust 12-22-2010 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Utah (Post 29727465)
Who do the Kings sit now? Who comes out for Westy occasionally? Richardson? Lewis? Sturm?

It likely comes down to Lewis sitting out whenever the Kings need Westgarth in the lineup. With everyone healthy (excluding Parse), the Kings will likely ice the following forward lines:

Sturm-Kopitar-Brown
Smyth-Stoll-Williams
Clifford-Handzus-Simmonds
Ponikarovsky-Lewis-Richardson

If Lewis sits, Richardson can shift to C and Westgarth to RW.

Muzzinga 12-22-2010 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Utah (Post 29727465)
Who do the Kings sit now? Who comes out for Westy occasionally? Richardson? Lewis? Sturm?

Id imagine Lewis. Sturm would move up to line 1, and Richardson slot in to centre the 4th line

Wow, i had completely forgotten about Parse, guess he won't make it back into the team

Belanger25 12-22-2010 05:37 PM

It will really be a shame that Lewis would have to sit at all. Really would be because he doesn't deserve it.

AKAY47 12-22-2010 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belanger25 (Post 29727612)
It will really be a shame that Lewis would have to sit at all. Really would be because he doesn't deserve it.

We're watching the kid finally fit into his own, he's developing right in front of our eyes and it sucks that we have to sit him for a guy like Kevin Westgarth when we've got Kyle Clifford who can handle the role of an agitator or enforcer, while putting the puck in the net

Fishhead 12-22-2010 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKAY47 (Post 29727935)
We're watching the kid finally fit into his own, he's developing right in front of our eyes and it sucks that we have to sit him for a guy like Kevin Westgarth when we've got Kyle Clifford who can handle the role of an agitator or enforcer, while putting the puck in the net

Agitator, undoubtedly. Enforcer, not a chance.

Reaper45 12-22-2010 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishhead (Post 29727996)
Agitator, undoubtedly. Enforcer, not a chance.

Exactly. When will people realize that Clifford cannot fight the Koci's, the Scott's, or the Parros' of the league?

Johnny Utah 12-22-2010 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKAY47 (Post 29727935)
We're watching the kid finally fit into his own, he's developing right in front of our eyes and it sucks that we have to sit him for a guy like Kevin Westgarth when we've got Kyle Clifford who can handle the role of an agitator or enforcer, while putting the puck in the net

Ha. I love Clifford more than anyone here, but he is no enforcer especially ay 19 and 6'2"....No way he could fight Scott, Parros, MacIntyre, Janssen....

two out of three* 12-22-2010 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Utah (Post 29728314)
Ha. I love Clifford more than anyone here, but he is no enforcer especially ay 19 and 6'2"....No way he could fight Scott, Parros, MacIntyre, Janssen....

I don't think that means Clifford isn't an "enforcer" just because he wont fight THOSE guys. Those guys are Heavyweights. Just cause somebody isn't a Heavyweight doesn't make them NOT an enforcer, IMO.

Ironically, its EXACTLY like Boxing. Heavyweights in Boxing these days suck at Boxing. Heavyweights in Hockey suck at Hockey. I'll stick to my Kyle Cliffords/Manny Pacquiaos.

Live in the Now 12-22-2010 06:38 PM

Cam Janssen is smaller than Clifford. I really don't know how a fight between them would turn out. I think everyone agrees that he can't fight the super heavies though. He'd wind up with a broken jaw and be out of our lineup or need to have his role diminished, we cannot have that.

KingLB 12-22-2010 07:01 PM

I'm confused why Clifford "has" to fight these guys....I can't even remember the last time a "heavyweight" fight wasn't scripted...

Then if the "heavyweights" start "taking liberties" on Kings players...have the Kings players start "taking liberties" on the opposing team....I guarantee the team with the better skaters will be able to take more.

BigKing 12-22-2010 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live in the Now (Post 29728508)
Cam Janssen is smaller than Clifford. I really don't know how a fight between them would turn out. I think everyone agrees that he can't fight the super heavies though. He'd wind up with a broken jaw and be out of our lineup or need to have his role diminished, we cannot have that.

He definitely shouldn't fight the Super HW's but I think he can handle most guys in the 225 pound range. Within the division, Parros is the only one he shouldn't play around with but, even then, he'd have a chance due to Parros's terrible balance.

It looks like the heaviest guy he has fought was Chris Frank at 230 pounds.

I've compared him to Neil but, looking at Neil's fight card, Neil is a beast. Fought Simon more than once, Chara, Matt Johnson, etc... He's 6'1" and 215 but is a very good fighter and will step up to anyone when needed. I hope Clifford can get up to 215 eventually. Anyways, Neil plays every game while a guy like MacGratton only played 45 games the season Ottawa made the Finals. Once in the playoffs, Neil was a huge physical presence and seemingly the only Ottawa player who pushed back at the Ducks during the Finals.

As long as there are teams rolling big-time HW's, a Lombardi-led Kings team is going to have one as well. Against cupcakes like Detroit or last night's version of the Avs, go right ahead and scratch Westgarth. The other reason you want that deterrent in the form of Westgarth is you want Clifford to play more than sit in the box.

Looks like same line-up tomorrow night. I usually hope for a huge Kings win but I'd prefer Edmonton to be within 2 goals in the 3rd so nothing gets out of hand.

BigKing 12-22-2010 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingLB (Post 29728888)
I'm confused why Clifford "has" to fight these guys....I can't even remember the last time a "heavyweight" fight wasn't scripted...

Then if the "heavyweights" start "taking liberties" on Kings players...have the Kings players start "taking liberties" on the opposing team....I guarantee the team with the better skaters will be able to take more.

This team has nobody that is going to take liberties outside of those that fight. Just because Marco Strum can skate well, doesn't mean he's going to take liberties.

As for the scripted comment, look no further than Westgarth v. Konopka for an example of a Kings HW fight that wasn't "scripted".

Take a look at the Sabres/Ducks game last night. Ducks go down big early, Blake boards/injures Kaleta. Why would a ***** like Blake do that? Because Buffalo is pathetic in the toughness department and Blake knows his teammates have his back. Sure as ****, Parros lays a beating on Weber who was way, way out of his league. At least Parros picked one of their bigger guys to fight but still, do you want to see Drewiske fighting HW's because the Kings are icing 4 lines that can score? As if the inclusion of Wesgarth is an automatic 2 goals less for LA and 2 more for the other team?

Johnny Utah 12-22-2010 07:36 PM

I guess some people are missing the point, the Kings SHOULD take liberties agaisnt the other team, but who will do that besides Clifford and Simmonds? If the Kings were lined with tough and gritty players, it would be easy to sit Westgarth, but they are not...the top 6 forward are pretty soft except for Brown, I don't even think Smyth or Williams know how to throw a hard check....

And the defense without Mitchell and Greene? You think Martinez and Harrold are going to RUN anyone! Ha.

Vancouver got rid of Hordichuk, but even without him, Alberts, Bieska, Burrows, Kesler, Bolduc, and Glass...those are 6 guys that will make you pay the price....Name 6 on the Kings today? Clifford, Simmonds and uh.......exactly.......

Big King is right, the Kings don't have that will go tit for tat with anyone besides our fighters. That is why Westgarth is playing and will play.

Kyle Clifford himself doesn't make the entire Los Angeles Kings team tough. McSorley was the only one who had that ability and that was 17 years ago.

Josh Deitell 12-22-2010 07:37 PM

Very rarely are the heavies the guys throwing the cheap hits, they just don't have the mobility.


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