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-   -   How to make places like ACC affordable (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=856426)

2fast4u2* 12-23-2010 10:07 AM

How to make places like ACC affordable
 
IMO i think that you would see alot less "suits"at places like the ACC if they made it so that NHL tickets wouldnt be a"right off" for some of these companies and then you would have "real" fans goin to these games and alot more energy at games.The ppl in suits make it harder for the "average Joe" to be able to go to games.I think this MIGHT help for some teams that need some "real fans" at games to back them up.

wjhl2009fan 12-23-2010 10:14 AM

The probleam is if you take away boxes you have to raise ticket prices for the most part.You can't get rid of the boxes and lower ticket it just can't happen you could remove some boxes and put seats there but not in great numbers.

Vic Rattlehead* 12-23-2010 10:15 AM

real fans? lol

Owners don't care who goes to games as long as tickets are being bought. A key to being successful is having "suits" buying up the expensive tickets the "average Joe" cannot afford.

2fast4u2* 12-23-2010 10:16 AM

I dont mean the "boxes" i mean like when you see all the suits taking up the whole first level........the Boxes are fine with me

wjhl2009fan 12-23-2010 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 (Post 29738267)
I dont mean the "boxes" i mean like when you see all the suits taking up the whole first level........the Boxes are fine with me

Bottom line is there not going to get rid of the suites and offer cheap tickets.If they did remove some suites they would be replaced with tickets that are not cheap so in toronto you would be looking at likely $300-600.

2fast4u2* 12-23-2010 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan (Post 29738289)
Bottom line is there not going to get rid of the suites and offer cheap tickets.If they did remove some suites they would be replaced with tickets that are not cheap so in toronto you would be looking at likely $300-600.


i dont mean suites i said the SUITS you know all the guys that dont care about the game really....they are just there as an ego boost because they might get seen on tv cause they are behind one of the benchs or something......and i dont think what i said will EVER happen but it was just a thought

wjhl2009fan 12-23-2010 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 (Post 29738344)
i dont mean suites i said the SUITS you know all the guys that dont care about the game really....they are just there as an ego boost because they might get seen on tv cause they are behind one of the benchs or something......and i dont think what i said will EVER happen but it was just a thought

It does not matter if they care about the game there paying big bucks that that is what matter for owners.

2fast4u2* 12-23-2010 10:33 AM

I think if you seen more die hard fans there you might see more waffles on the ice lol

cheswick 12-23-2010 10:34 AM

It's called supply and demand. The leafs are in business of making money. they cahrge what the market will bear. If the leafs made the tickets super cheap in the front rows so teh "Average joe" could afford it they'd be losing a tonne of money. Not to mention they would just be bought en masse then sold on teh gray market at huge market ups cause thats what the market can bear.

C77 12-23-2010 10:52 AM

Pool your money amongst a group of 10 people.

Everyone gives $5 a paycheck or something like that?

Ogopogo* 12-23-2010 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 (Post 29738134)
IMO i think that you would see alot less "suits"at places like the ACC if they made it so that NHL tickets wouldnt be a"right off" for some of these companies and then you would have "real" fans goin to these games and alot more energy at games.The ppl in suits make it harder for the "average Joe" to be able to go to games.I think this MIGHT help for some teams that need some "real fans" at games to back them up.

Easy solution: Put a team in Hamilton.

senatoilers* 12-23-2010 10:57 AM

First of all, it's "write off". Also, from my experience, most "suits" give away most of their tickets to family and friends because they're too busy working to attend games. Furthermore, you don't have to be poor, shirtless, and face-painted to be a "real fan". I'm sure many "suits" have probably been lifelong fans who dreamed of owning season tickets one day and busted their ***** to be able to afford them.. Others busted their ***** to earn perks from their company. What makes you think you should be entitled to those seats to the detriment of those who work harder than you, those who know the difference between right and write, the owners of the sports team, and the free market in general? Because you get hammered and shout obscenities louder than the suits? Maybe your penchant for excessive drinking, yelling, and face-painting is the reason you can't afford the same tickets as the "suits"?

saskganesh 12-23-2010 11:29 AM

lobby the government so that tickets (and assorted costs, like drinks) to professional games of any sort no longer count as a business-related entertainment expense.

that will lower prices. and cut out the "suits". and cut into every single Canadian team's bottom line.

GreatCanadian 12-23-2010 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senatoilers (Post 29738834)
First of all, it's "write off". Also, from my experience, most "suits" give away most of their tickets to family and friends because they're too busy working to attend games. Furthermore, you don't have to be poor, shirtless, and face-painted to be a "real fan". I'm sure many "suits" have probably been lifelong fans who dreamed of owning season tickets one day and busted their ***** to be able to afford them.. Others busted their ***** to earn perks from their company. What makes you think you should be entitled to those seats to the detriment of those who work harder than you, those who know the difference between right and write, the owners of the sports team, and the free market in general? Because you get hammered and shout obscenities louder than the suits? Maybe your penchant for excessive drinking, yelling, and face-painting is the reason you can't afford the same tickets as the "suits"?

Amen to that. Agree 100%.

As much as your comment makes sense on the surface, 2Fast, the reality is that if the market has as much demand as Toronto does, the tickets will go to the highest bidder no matter what. Legally or illegally. Demand is demand in the end. Those dirt cheap tickets for ice-level will go for 300-500-700$ on ebay/kijiji/whatever. Some "suit" (as you call them) with a few bucks to burn might try and buy a whole section if he can, and sell it all at 1000% the price and pocket the profit.

The only way to lower ticket prices inflated by excessive demand, is to increase supply. In other words, start up more teams in the area. But, that dilutes profits from the original team (the Maple Leafs) and they would never agree to it. Hence the pickle Toronto sits in as far as accessibility of tickets.

Not as easy to solve as first thought. Other ideas might "seem" to work on the surface, but will more than likely backfire other ways that were not planned.

htpwn 12-23-2010 02:03 PM

I actually do have an idea in this regard. It sounds good in my head but who knows how it will work in reality.

As we know fan sections are quite common in soccer and some hockey teams even have direct experience in dealing with them.

For example, the Toronto FC (MLS) is owned by MLSE and has several fan groups including the U Sector, North End Elite, Red Patch Boys, and others.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ontoFCFans.jpg

Several problems are associated with this concept in Toronto specifically. Unlike soccer, one does not go to hockey games expecting to hear drums and singing and some (particularly the corporate type) may be turned off by it. Ideally you would try to separate them from the rest of the crowd in some way.

In BMO Field, the Toronto FC supporters sit mainly in the south end stands (Yellow)

http://www.httours.com/TORONTO_FC_SEATING_CHART.gif

If the Leafs still played in Maple Leaf Gardens, this might be possible due to the overarching balconies on both ends of the rink. However since they don't, the only section of the Air Canada Centre that has a similar "isolation" (I use that term loosely, for obvious reasons), is the blues, which many don't even know exist due to lower numbers.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...icture16-1.png

Further complicating things are the fact that season ticket holders are scattered throughout. We know that the Leafs have somewhere around 15000-16000 season ticket holders, leaving around 3000-4000 tickets for distribution. My proposal is take a bunch of available upper bowl tickets (maybe somewhere between 500-1000), along with a few lower bowl ones and create a fan group. Tickets would be sold discounted from their face value.

Now, the common argument of selling the tickets below face/their market value is that scalpers would sell them for more of a mark-up. To combat this, I propose that picture identification be used. Perhaps a separate entrance could be set up to avoid longer line ups elsewhere.

There are a lot of problems but I do believe these could be solved with some outside of the box thinking.

danishh 12-23-2010 11:24 PM

the biggest problem for the average joe is inflated secondary market prices thanks to places like stubhub, craigslist, kijiji, arena scalpers, and the like. If people who didnt want to attend games were forced to sell their tickets at face value, a lot more average joes could get them. As it is now, very few tickets are released for individual sale, and those that are either go to joe fan who actually attends the game, or go to jim the opportunist who turns around and flips it for a profit. Joe fan cant afford to pay the inflated secondary market prices.


This is a problem for all major sports and concerts as well. I dont understand why the teams/artists and governments dont crack down on secondary markets. We need legislation and enforcement to protect the fans from these opportunists.

leoleo3535 12-23-2010 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 (Post 29738134)
IMO i think that you would see alot less "suits"at places like the ACC if they made it so that NHL tickets wouldnt be a"right off" for some of these companies and then you would have "real" fans goin to these games and alot more energy at games.The ppl in suits make it harder for the "average Joe" to be able to go to games.I think this MIGHT help for some teams that need some "real fans" at games to back them up.

...and why would the most valuable team in the league that always sells out look at being more affordable?

LadyStanley 12-23-2010 11:36 PM

The only team-endorsed venue for Sharks ticket resale is Ticketmaster's Ticket Exchange. I'm forced to mark up my tickets by at least $12 ($43 for $31 ticket; of which I get $37.50 account credit after sale, and AIUI there's a service charge on top of that).

Craigslist (at least for Sharks tickets) frowns on scalping.

Other non-team endorsed venues for Sharks ticket exchange are at (or below) face value (plus any TM fees incurred originally) for regular season, including two chat boards (one is HF) and a Yahoo group only allow max face value.

Stub Hub does allow sales of tickets below face value, depending on demand.

leoleo3535 12-23-2010 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htpwn (Post 29741939)
I actually do have an idea in this regard. It sounds good in my head but who knows how it will work in reality.

As we know fan sections are quite common in soccer and some hockey teams even have direct experience in dealing with them.

For example, the Toronto FC (MLS) is owned by MLSE and has several fan groups including the U Sector, North End Elite, Red Patch Boys, and others.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ontoFCFans.jpg

Several problems are associated with this concept in Toronto specifically. Unlike soccer, one does not go to hockey games expecting to hear drums and singing and some (particularly the corporate type) may be turned off by it. Ideally you would try to separate them from the rest of the crowd in some way.

In BMO Field, the Toronto FC supporters sit mainly in the south end stands (Yellow)

http://www.httours.com/TORONTO_FC_SEATING_CHART.gif

If the Leafs still played in Maple Leaf Gardens, this might be possible due to the overarching balconies on both ends of the rink. However since they don't, the only section of the Air Canada Centre that has a similar "isolation" (I use that term loosely, for obvious reasons), is the blues, which many don't even know exist due to lower numbers.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...icture16-1.png

Further complicating things are the fact that season ticket holders are scattered throughout. We know that the Leafs have somewhere around 15000-16000 season ticket holders, leaving around 3000-4000 tickets for distribution. My proposal is take a bunch of available upper bowl tickets (maybe somewhere between 500-1000), along with a few lower bowl ones and create a fan group. Tickets would be sold discounted from their face value.

Now, the common argument of selling the tickets below face/their market value is that scalpers would sell them for more of a mark-up. To combat this, I propose that picture identification be used. Perhaps a separate entrance could be set up to avoid longer line ups elsewhere.

There are a lot of problems but I do believe these could be solved with some outside of the box thinking.




????????and this benefits the team how?

htpwn 12-23-2010 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leoleo3535 (Post 29755905)
????????and this benefits the team how?

The idea wasn't to benefit the team, it was to allow more "real" fans in the arena at affordable prices, along with hopefully creating a better atmosphere at a usually dead quiet arena. It's not like it will drastically hurt the team. You could cut ticket prices in half at the ACC and the tickets would still cost more then several franchises in the league.

The other option would be for the Leafs to play in the Skydome for "big ticket" games such as against Montreal.

LadyStanley 12-24-2010 12:01 AM

One of the venues the Sharks played at in Europe had an entire section that was SRO (no seats) and that was where the cheers were coming from for the whole game.

seanlinden 12-24-2010 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatCanadian (Post 29739977)
Amen to that. Agree 100%.

As much as your comment makes sense on the surface, 2Fast, the reality is that if the market has as much demand as Toronto does, the tickets will go to the highest bidder no matter what. Legally or illegally. Demand is demand in the end. Those dirt cheap tickets for ice-level will go for 300-500-700$ on ebay/kijiji/whatever. Some "suit" (as you call them) with a few bucks to burn might try and buy a whole section if he can, and sell it all at 1000% the price and pocket the profit.

The only way to lower ticket prices inflated by excessive demand, is to increase supply. In other words, start up more teams in the area. But, that dilutes profits from the original team (the Maple Leafs) and they would never agree to it. Hence the pickle Toronto sits in as far as accessibility of tickets.

Not as easy to solve as first thought. Other ideas might "seem" to work on the surface, but will more than likely backfire other ways that were not planned.

QFT.

This isn't MLSE gouging Leafs fans -- this is MLSE making sure that they make profits, not scalpers. Sure, MLSE could lower the cost of season tickets, but the prices on teh secondary market would just go up. The black market trade price of PSLs would go through the roof, because people would know that they can renew the PSL, purchase the tickets at significantly below market value, and resell them at market value.

Like you said, the only way to lower prices is to increase supply (or decrease demand significantly). There are two options -- a bigger arena and more games. The first one isn't going to happen, the second is already in place -- notably the Fans First Game, and Toronto is the only team in the league to do this.

Are there completely ridiculous and impractical ways of making sure fans pay less for tickets? absolutely, but remember, every hockey team in the league is a business. They did the fans first game because IIRC, they would normally grosss about $1m in ticket sales from a preseason game, the NHL gave them the right to host an extra preseason game, draw the media rights, and the benefit to Coca Cola of being able to give away all of those tickets was problably well north of $1m.

The Bob Cole 12-24-2010 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senatoilers (Post 29738834)
First of all, it's "write off". Also, from my experience, most "suits" give away most of their tickets to family and friends because they're too busy working to attend games. Furthermore, you don't have to be poor, shirtless, and face-painted to be a "real fan". I'm sure many "suits" have probably been lifelong fans who dreamed of owning season tickets one day and busted their ***** to be able to afford them.. Others busted their ***** to earn perks from their company. What makes you think you should be entitled to those seats to the detriment of those who work harder than you, those who know the difference between right and write, the owners of the sports team, and the free market in general? Because you get hammered and shout obscenities louder than the suits? Maybe your penchant for excessive drinking, yelling, and face-painting is the reason you can't afford the same tickets as the "suits"?

This.

Here is another thought for the OP (who likely doesn't really understand the business side of hockey, just the fanatic side of it) - perhaps those 'suits' are actually watching the game more intently than those average-joe 'super fans' and therefore aren't mindlessly yelling the whole 60 minutes.

MAROONSRoad 12-24-2010 01:44 AM

Just save yourself the expense of going to a Leafs game and take that money and buy a large flat screen HDTV and a LeafsTV subscription.

It's too bad the Leafs didn't build a 30,000 seat arena.

GHOST

Nalyd Psycho 12-24-2010 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htpwn (Post 29741939)
Further complicating things are the fact that season ticket holders are scattered throughout. We know that the Leafs have somewhere around 15000-16000 season ticket holders, leaving around 3000-4000 tickets for distribution. My proposal is take a bunch of available upper bowl tickets (maybe somewhere between 500-1000), along with a few lower bowl ones and create a fan group. Tickets would be sold discounted from their face value.

Now, the common argument of selling the tickets below face/their market value is that scalpers would sell them for more of a mark-up. To combat this, I propose that picture identification be used. Perhaps a separate entrance could be set up to avoid longer line ups elsewhere.

There are a lot of problems but I do believe these could be solved with some outside of the box thinking.

You wouldn't even need to mark down the prices. Just have the section be no season ticket/no re-sale/picture id required. And even though at the high prices poorer fans would not be able to go often, anyone could save up for the occasional game. And in a city the size of Toronto, that would mean the section sells out every time.


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