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-   -   How much blame do you give Lundqvist for the shootout loss? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=856774)

Hockey Team 12-24-2010 05:21 AM

How much blame do you give Lundqvist for the shootout loss?
 
I know a lot of people here often give Lundqvist free passes on things he shouldn't (I know I do at times).

I'm curious as to how much blame you think he gets on the SO loss.

I think he gets half the blame.

Sure, he was great from rounds 4 - 10 being perfect, and our shooters were a joke after the first 3, but why did it get to round 4 to begin with? We got 2 goals, but lundqvist also let 2 in. Most of the time your team gets 2 out of 3 in the shootout, it should be over right there. After that he put on quite a show, but unfortunately the damage was done since outside of EC and our AHL callups we have nobody who can come close to getting a shootout goal. And that was probably the most frustrating thing about watching the shootout tonight. Lundqvist can make as many great saves as he wants, but you just know our next shooter is going to fan on the shot or something.

On another note.. the guy takes it way too hard on himself in the post game interviews. A bad loss is a bad loss (and tonight's wasn't even a bad game, we played great outside of the 2 retarded give aways to st louis), no need to take it on yourself like that.

Chimp 12-24-2010 05:48 AM

When you have a team collectively incapable of hardly even getting a frigging shot on net in a shootout, I'm not looking at the other side of the rink.

2/11.

The mindboggling giveaways (plural!) to St Louis in regulation weren't that pretty either, so the question is why we got to a coin flipping shootout in the first place.

turcotte8 12-24-2010 06:22 AM

I blame the shooters. 11 penalty shots against Dan freakin' Ellis should be like 5 goals.

jniklast 12-24-2010 06:36 AM

5.26 %

You win as a team, you lose as a team. He didn't make any major mistakes or stood out, so he has as much responsibility for the loss as the rest of the team.

Hockey Team 12-24-2010 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turcotte8 (Post 29758267)
I blame the shooters. 11 penalty shots against Dan freakin' Ellis should be like 5 goals.

oh, of course i blame the shooters too, but i don't believe lundqvist gets a free pass for letting 2 of the first 3 in.

Our 4 - 11 shooters were just... bad.. I honestly don't know how to describe it. Most of them didn't even SHOOT.. what the hell?

When your moves suck, just let a shot rip.. you're up against dan ellis for god's sake, at least get a shot off, don't just let him poke check you away.

Hockey Team 12-24-2010 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jniklast (Post 29758301)
5.26 %

You win as a team, you lose as a team. He didn't make any major mistakes or stood out, so he has as much responsibility for the loss as the rest of the team.

Well I'm talking about specifically the shootout part of the game.

Goalie's responsible for a hell of a lot more then 1/19th of the effort (1/20th if you count the backup goalie) there considering that in most shootouts there's only 4 players from a team involved.

Even for the entire game, I remember seeing someone say the goalie accounts for 18% of the performance of the team. It definitely is more then a skater. A goalie plays the full 60 minutes, and if your goalie has a really crappy night, you have absolutely no chance of winning (Look at brodeur's night, 5 goals on like 3 shots? lol). I have to say I agree with this #. Assuming the goalie plays 60 minutes, and you have 5 skaters playing 60 minutes each minus shorthanded time (so let's say 290 skater minutes), the goalie's playing 60 / 350 man minutes on the ice, which is 17% of the total ice time. I'm not sure how someone came up with the 18% figure, but it is pretty close to the share of ice time the goalie represents so I can agree with that.

klingsor 12-24-2010 07:16 AM

Zero percent.

I blame the people who came up with the idea of a gimmick to decide who wins a game.

GeorgeHamiltonsTan 12-24-2010 07:25 AM

is this a joke?
first of all the shootout sucks

furthermore hank pushed it to 11 rounds, we had a shootout specialist a rookie and a guy playinghis first nhl game leading the way against an offensively stacked team...do the math.

There are actually people who put some of the blame on lundqvist...:shakehead

our fanbase is just scary retahhhhded sometimes.

DubiDubiDoo 12-24-2010 07:38 AM

I blame Michal Rozsival for last nights loss. Yes our Elite 32 year old veteran defenseman continues to make the same mistakes that our 20 year old defense has to sit for, yet he keeps getting 20 minutes a night.


His feed of St. Louis has been his nicest of the year!...rivaling only Girardi's....

RangerBoy 12-24-2010 07:50 AM

Is this April Fools Day or Christmas Eve?

Shootouts are crapshoots.

Nyrfan25 12-24-2010 07:53 AM

How ridiculous.

offdacrossbar 12-24-2010 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo (Post 29758477)
I blame Michal Rozsival for last nights loss. Yes our Elite 32 year old veteran defenseman continues to make the same mistakes that our 20 year old defense has to sit for, yet he keeps getting 20 minutes a night.


His feed of St. Louis has been his nicest of the year!...rivaling only Girardi's....

rozy would lead the league in assists if we counted his giveaways.

rozy is a dufus.

and this may be very unpopular to say but henrik is beggining to worry me. has he reached his peak ? have we seen the best of lundqvist?

is the off ice, non-hockey related stuff like his amazing lifestyle becoming his focus rather than hockey ? is he more about being hank then being the starting goalie for the nyr ??

hes easlily upset, shows alot of emotion and reactions on the ice, he still seems to make the same mistakes and contiunues to be prone to bad goals at bad times.

and for the first time in a long times, i dont feel hes carrying the team, in fact, i think the team has been hurt by hank a few more times than usual and thats a concern.

im beginning to wonder. I STILL BELIEVE HES ONE OF THE BEST. but....

last nights save % was .875 not very good.

3.35 gaa .889 last 2 games

14-12-1 2.47 gaa .918 for the season is just so-so

is hank no longer elite ?

Boom Boom Geoffrion* 12-24-2010 08:03 AM

I say we blame MAZ for last nights shootout loss. He should have found a way to go twice.

:dunce: :dunce: :dunce:

Only a fool would even consider blaming Henrik for the L. Only a fool.

jniklast 12-24-2010 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f2d (Post 29758404)
Well I'm talking about specifically the shootout part of the game.

Goalie's responsible for a hell of a lot more then 1/19th of the effort (1/20th if you count the backup goalie) there considering that in most shootouts there's only 4 players from a team involved.

Even for the entire game, I remember seeing someone say the goalie accounts for 18% of the performance of the team. It definitely is more then a skater. A goalie plays the full 60 minutes, and if your goalie has a really crappy night, you have absolutely no chance of winning (Look at brodeur's night, 5 goals on like 3 shots? lol). I have to say I agree with this #. Assuming the goalie plays 60 minutes, and you have 5 skaters playing 60 minutes each minus shorthanded time (so let's say 290 skater minutes), the goalie's playing 60 / 350 man minutes on the ice, which is 17% of the total ice time. I'm not sure how someone came up with the 18% figure, but it is pretty close to the share of ice time the goalie represents so I can agree with that.

Of course, the goalie is more important than the rest, that number was simply for the cliché (which holds a lot of truth nevertheless), not a literal number.

Anyway if you want a better number: There were a total of 22 shootout attempts. Lundqvist "failed" on three of them, so his "fault" made up 13.6% of the outcome. You could now say that he is at fault for the whole 13.64%, but that doesn't take into account whether he was statistically "expected" to stop more or less attempts. So the league wide shootout percentage is 30.88% while Tampa had a 27.28 shooting percentage last night. That means their shooting percentage was only 88.32 % of the league wide percentage. Thus we should multiply Hank's "fault percentage" with it and we end up with Hank getting 12.04% of the blame for the SO loss.

So are you satisfied with that number? Probably not because your main argument is that he should simply have stopped one of the first two attempts and we would have won. But I don't think you can simply say that. A small number of samples can result in high fluctuations. Overall Henrik was above average in the shootout while our shooters were well below average. And just like Henrik could have stopped one of those attempts to win the game, there were eight shooters who could've done the same by scoring.

Of course simply calculating some numbers using some stats does never tell the truth, since it ignores the quality of the shootout attempts, but you are asking for a number and I delivered one. And as I watched the game, I daresay that number is much closer to reality than most of the poll options.

SERE 24 12-24-2010 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offdacrossbar (Post 29758543)
rozy would lead the league in assists if we counted his giveaways.

rozy is a dufus.

and this may be very unpopular to say but henrik is beggining to worry me. has he reached his peak ? have we seen the best of lundqvist?

is the off ice, non-hockey related stuff like his amazing lifestyle becoming his focus rather than hockey ? is he more about being hank then being the starting goalie for the nyr ??

hes easlily upset, shows alot of emotion and reactions on the ice, he still seems to make the same mistakes and contiunues to be prone to bad goals at bad times.

and for the first time in a long times, i dont feel hes carrying the team, in fact, i think the team has been hurt by hank a few more times than usual and thats a concern.

im beginning to wonder. I STILL BELIEVE HES ONE OF THE BEST. but....

last nights save % was .875 not very good.

3.35 gaa .889 last 2 games

14-12-1 2.47 gaa .918 for the season is just so-so

is hank no longer elite ?

Ok, so if Rozy is a dufus, than outside of one good pairing (an even that pairing is still young and will make an occasional mistake - talking about Staal/Girardi) Henrik plays behind a "dufus" and MDZ, Sauer, Eminger, Gilroy... pretty green/weak D corps if you think about it.

Oooh.... his stats have been bad over the last two games! He must no longer be elite.

His career GAA is 2.34, which means he's allowed .11 more goals per game this season than is "typical" for him. His career S% is .918. Henrik is playing pretty much the exact same hockey he always does. The wins/loss record is a result of team efforts.

Sure, there have been moments where he hasn't look his sharpest. There have also been moments where he has been lights out. Overall, your questions are absurd. Our fan base blows my mind; I've actually logged myself out of HFboards and taken it off the quick links in my browser because I've been so frustrated by the quality of posts around here lately. I'm really trying not to post, but I was browsing this morning and couldn't help but respond to this drivel. Do you even think about what you're writing? His statistics are virtually on par with his career average, playing behind perhaps the greenest defense he's ever played behind, and the Rangers are doing quite well in the standings. Hank must not be elite anymore.

BBKers 12-24-2010 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offdacrossbar (Post 29758543)
rozy would lead the league in assists if we counted his giveaways.

rozy is a dufus.

and this may be very unpopular to say but henrik is beggining to worry me. has he reached his peak ? have we seen the best of lundqvist?

is the off ice, non-hockey related stuff like his amazing lifestyle becoming his focus rather than hockey ? is he more about being hank then being the starting goalie for the nyr ??

hes easlily upset, shows alot of emotion and reactions on the ice, he still seems to make the same mistakes and contiunues to be prone to bad goals at bad times.

and for the first time in a long times, i dont feel hes carrying the team, in fact, i think the team has been hurt by hank a few more times than usual and thats a concern.

im beginning to wonder. I STILL BELIEVE HES ONE OF THE BEST. but....

last nights save % was .875 not very good.

3.35 gaa .889 last 2 games

14-12-1 2.47 gaa .918 for the season is just so-so

is hank no longer elite ?

Can I have some of that eggnog?
Seriously:shakehead:shakehead:shakehead

offdacrossbar 12-24-2010 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetterqvist24 (Post 29758701)
Ok, so if Rozy is a dufus, than outside of one good pairing (an even that pairing is still young and will make an occasional mistake - talking about Staal/Girardi) Henrik plays behind a "dufus" and MDZ, Sauer, Eminger, Gilroy... pretty green/weak D corps if you think about it.

Oooh.... his stats have been bad over the last two games! He must no longer be elite.

His career GAA is 2.34, which means he's allowed .11 more goals per game this season than is "typical" for him. His career S% is .918. Henrik is playing pretty much the exact same hockey he always does. The wins/loss record is a result of team efforts.

Sure, there have been moments where he hasn't look his sharpest. There have also been moments where he has been lights out. Overall, your questions are absurd. Our fan base blows my mind; I've actually logged myself out of HFboards and taken it off the quick links in my browser because I've been so frustrated by the quality of posts around here lately. I'm really trying not to post, but I was browsing this morning and couldn't help but respond to this drivel. Do you even think about what you're writing? His statistics are virtually on par with his career average, playing behind perhaps the greenest defense he's ever played behind, and the Rangers are doing quite well in the standings. Hank must not be elite anymore.

the ability of people here to comprehend beyond knee jerk reactions is amazing. if you really read and think then you would understand what i wrote.

based upon this entire season THIS year, not just last night, is hank still an elite goaltender ?

that's the basis of my post. nothing more.

Celestial Black 12-24-2010 08:41 AM

I blame our choice of shooters after the initial 3.

SERE 24 12-24-2010 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offdacrossbar (Post 29758760)
the ability of people here to comprehend beyond knee jerk reactions is amazing. if you really read and think then you would understand what i wrote.

based upon this entire season THIS year, not just last night, is hank still an elite goaltender ?

that's the basis of my post. nothing more.

The irony is killing me. Did you even read MY post than? The one that says his statistics for the season are pretty much on par with his season averages and that at times he hasn't looked his sharpest, but at times he's been lights out? The part that says we're doing very well in the standings and that win/loss records are a team effort? Obviously, all of that was only addressing last night.

The fact of the matter is YOUR post is a knee jerk reaction. Nothing more... because ON THE SEASON, Henrik is virtually the same Henrik he's always been. He's sporting a marginally higher GAA (.11) behind a VERY limited defense... After Staal/Girardi we have a veteran that by your own standards is a dufus, two defensively deficient sophomores, a rookie and a bottom pair journeyman. Sure, Sauer and Eminger have given us some quality minutes, but that's only quality relative to the expectations that are upon them, which are relatively low. Henrik is playing behind a fairly thin defense and putting up virtually the same numbers as his career averages so how ON EARTH could he no longer be elite if he's the same? Either he never has been, or he still is.

Moreover, it must feel great to be the only genius cheering for the Rangers at HFboards. I mean, people hardly EVER agree with you and the poll in this thread has 90% of everyone who voted placing no blame on Henrik whatsoever - it must be nice being able to see things the average man cannot. Convincing yourself that you're right all of the time no matter how much your peers disagree... delusional.

Orr Nightmare 12-24-2010 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Black (Post 29758797)
I blame our choice of shooters after the initial 3.

I agree 100%...Torts did a terrible job selecting the shooters...To see Norris Roszival in the top 8 made me cringe...I guess they wanted to reward him for his outstanding game tonight...$5 million worth of sh&t.

Hockey Team 12-24-2010 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Black (Post 29758797)
I blame our choice of shooters after the initial 3.

Choice of shooters?

More like availability of shooters.

Who has a good shootout shot after our first 3? There's noone on this team I would want to bank on to make a shootout goal

And again -- Yes hank did push it to 11 rounds, but he also gave up 2 in the first 3 -- otherwise it wouldn't have gone past round 3. Hence why I feel he doesn't get a free pass.

The point of this post is to see how much we overrate lundqvist.. I know I do, just not as much as a lot of people do. Yeah shootouts are a crapshoot, but letting in 2 of the first 3 is NOT a good performance. But making 7 saves after that is, hence why I gave him half the blame.

CHGoalie27 12-24-2010 09:15 AM

Is the OP question serious?????

WTF?

Is Hank an elite goaltender??? WTf'inF??!?!?

How much do I blame Lundqvist for his shootout loss? About as much as I blame Callahan for making himself break his hand...???

Hockey Team 12-24-2010 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 (Post 29759032)
Is the OP question serious?????

WTF?

Is Hank an elite goaltender??? WTf'inF??!?!?

How much do I blame Lundqvist for his shootout loss? About as much as I blame Callahan for making himself break his hand...???

What? I didn't ask if he's an elite goaltender or not.

I don't know how that entered the discussion.

chosen 12-24-2010 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offdacrossbar (Post 29758543)
rozy would lead the league in assists if we counted his giveaways.

rozy is a dufus.

and this may be very unpopular to say but henrik is beggining to worry me. has he reached his peak ? have we seen the best of lundqvist?

is the off ice, non-hockey related stuff like his amazing lifestyle becoming his focus rather than hockey ? is he more about being hank then being the starting goalie for the nyr ??

hes easlily upset, shows alot of emotion and reactions on the ice, he still seems to make the same mistakes and contiunues to be prone to bad goals at bad times.

and for the first time in a long times, i dont feel hes carrying the team, in fact, i think the team has been hurt by hank a few more times than usual and thats a concern.

im beginning to wonder. I STILL BELIEVE HES ONE OF THE BEST. but....

last nights save % was .875 not very good.

3.35 gaa .889 last 2 games

14-12-1 2.47 gaa .918 for the season is just so-so

is hank no longer elite ?


I don't think I have ever seen anyone try and come up with a theory statistically based on two games.

I blame the loss on Enver Lisin and Blair Betts no longer being here, because after all only Gaborik had more offensive talent than Lisin and Betts was as much of an offensive threat as Dubinsky. I once read that here.

Killem Dafoe 12-24-2010 09:32 AM

oh i missunderstood. i thought this meant the whole game. not just the shootout.


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