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-   -   Ukraine: Sergei Gaiduchenko to play for Ukraine? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=858639)

finchster 12-29-2010 11:23 PM

Sergei Gaiduchenko to play for Ukraine?
 
After stating he wanted to represent Russia internationally CSKA goaltender Sergei Gaiduchenko seems to be thinking of playing for Ukraine.

http://hcsokol.kiev.ua/article_7477.html (Russian)

http://translate.google.ca/translate...icle_7477.html

Quote:

"In the coming days I will call my agent and make a decision. I know that the championship will be held in April in Kiev, and in front of the Ukrainian team faces a serious challenge to return to the elite," - Gayduchenko
This might be the best development for the Ukrainian national team for a long time if he does decide to play. A good young goaltender who can start for the national team for the foreseeable future.

Franck 12-30-2010 05:35 PM

I guess it would be a nice start, but rebuilding the Ukrainian hockey programme is going to take a lot more than just a goaltender.

Most of their national team consists of players born in the 1970s and at the Worlds last year they only had one player younger than 27.
The few decent talents they still produce just go down the same route as the generations before them and play for Russia.

finchster 12-31-2010 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franck (Post 29865817)
I guess it would be a nice start, but rebuilding the Ukrainian hockey programme is going to take a lot more than just a goaltender.

Most of their national team consists of players born in the 1970s and at the Worlds last year they only had one player younger than 27.
The few decent talents they still produce just go down the same route as the generations before them and play for Russia.

Got to start somewhere, getting a young goaltender to commit can help start rebuilding that program. Kiev also might have a KHL team next year, so that would turn that program around in a hurry I think. There are plenty of hockey players born in Kiev, if they had a professional set up in their own city more young players would play for Ukraine

smitty10 12-31-2010 02:42 PM

It would be nice for Ukraine, but seriously they need more guys than just Gaiduchenko. They need Fedotenko and Ponikarovsky to come and play as well as Alexei Mikhnov, Zherdev, Razin, Babchuk, etc. They could actually be on par with teams like Belarus and Latvia if these guys played, but until they do Ukraine will be in D1. I remember hearing something about Zherdev and Babchuk considering playing for Ukraine, which would be nice. Any truth to that?

ozo 12-31-2010 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29885314)
Any truth to that?

Shortly - no.

finchster 12-31-2010 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29885314)
I remember hearing something about Zherdev and Babchuk considering playing for Ukraine, which would be nice. Any truth to that?

I am not clear on the rules for switching nationality but for Zherdev and Babchuk it is next to impossible to do so since they have played official competitions for Russia. Babchuk has only played in the u18ís so perhaps there is some leeway for him, but Zherdev played in the world championships so I think he has a 0% chance to play for Ukraine. It is sad because many players who choose to play for Russia end up being secondary or depth guys for the Russian team, they would be leading stars for Ukraine. Without a professional set up however, Ukraine will always lose players to Russia.

From what I have read the Ukrainian Federationís short term plans is to get a team in the KHL, get citizenship for some players and get those players to bolster the Ukrainian National team in the short term. Long term with a professional set up there isnít much for Ukraine to do, while most players on the Ukrainian National team now were all born in the 1970ís, if you look at players who were born in just in Kiev, there is a steady stream of good players from that city yearly. I think a KHL team with a good youth set up could turn Ukraine around in 5 years

Pure fantasy, but if you were to get all players born in Ukraine I believe Ukraine would be better than Latvia

smitty10 01-01-2011 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 29887376)
I am not clear on the rules for switching nationality but for Zherdev and Babchuk it is next to impossible to do so since they have played official competitions for Russia. Babchuk has only played in the u18’s so perhaps there is some leeway for him, but Zherdev played in the world championships so I think he has a 0% chance to play for Ukraine. It is sad because many players who choose to play for Russia end up being secondary or depth guys for the Russian team, they would be leading stars for Ukraine. Without a professional set up however, Ukraine will always lose players to Russia.

From what I have read the Ukrainian Federation’s short term plans is to get a team in the KHL, get citizenship for some players and get those players to bolster the Ukrainian National team in the short term. Long term with a professional set up there isn’t much for Ukraine to do, while most players on the Ukrainian National team now were all born in the 1970’s, if you look at players who were born in just in Kiev, there is a steady stream of good players from that city yearly. I think a KHL team with a good youth set up could turn Ukraine around in 5 years

Pure fantasy, but if you were to get all players born in Ukraine I believe Ukraine would be better than Latvia

Well, Babchuk did represent Russia at the U-18s but I really don't see that being a problem since it was so long ago. I know that Nabokov represented Kazakhstan in 1994, but has since represented Russia in a number of tournaments. And let's not forget about Peter Stastny who represented Czechoslovakia, Slovakia and Canada in his career. I'm not sure about how long the wait time is between representing countries, but I believe it is something like 4-5 years.

I also agree that Ukraine would be better than Latvia. Hell, I think they could actually be a competitive nation if they had all of their countrymen play for them instead of Russia. Ponikarovsky, Fedotenko, Zherdev, Babchuk, Gaiduchenko, Mikhnov, etc are better than what a lot of the top 15 countries have. It's unfortunate that these guys don't all play for them because it could make a huge difference for Ukrainian hockey.

finchster 01-01-2011 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29901069)
Well, Babchuk did represent Russia at the U-18s but I really don't see that being a problem since it was so long ago. I know that Nabokov represented Kazakhstan in 1994, but has since represented Russia in a number of tournaments. And let's not forget about Peter Stastny who represented Czechoslovakia, Slovakia and Canada in his career. I'm not sure about how long the wait time is between representing countries, but I believe it is something like 4-5 years.

The players you named all had extenuating circumstances as to why they were allowed to switch nations. Nabokov stated he was forced to play for Kazakhstan and didnít have a choice in that period of time. The IIHF heard his case and agreed with him so he was allowed to play for Russia. Stastny had the unique situation of defecting, so he wasnít allowed to play for Czechoslovakia. He did play for Canada in the 84 Canada Cup, but that is a non IIHF event so the rules of who can play for who are less strict. Dainius Zubrus played for Russia at the 2004 World Cup of Hockey (Non IIHF), but played for Lithuania just a few months later in the World Championships. In the case of players from Ukraine they had a choice, I am sure these Russian clubs influenced them to play for Russia but at the end of the day they were free to make their decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29901069)
I also agree that Ukraine would be better than Latvia. Hell, I think they could actually be a competitive nation if they had all of their countrymen play for them instead of Russia. Ponikarovsky, Fedotenko, Zherdev, Babchuk, Gaiduchenko, Mikhnov, etc are better than what a lot of the top 15 countries have. It's unfortunate that these guys don't all play for them because it could make a huge difference for Ukrainian hockey.

Also guys like Tverdovsky, Vishnevskiy are solid KHL defenders from Ukraine. Ukraine doesn't have any problems getting kids interested and playing hockey as evidenced by the number of players who come from there. They lack professional clubs and elite level development in their own country to keep kids with their program. Getting a professional club in the KHL could turn Ukraineís program around in a few short years in my opinion.

smitty10 01-01-2011 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 29901754)
The players you named all had extenuating circumstances as to why they were allowed to switch nations. Nabokov stated he was forced to play for Kazakhstan and didnít have a choice in that period of time. The IIHF heard his case and agreed with him so he was allowed to play for Russia. Stastny had the unique situation of defecting, so he wasnít allowed to play for Czechoslovakia. He did play for Canada in the 84 Canada Cup, but that is a non IIHF event so the rules of who can play for who are less strict. Dainius Zubrus played for Russia at the 2004 World Cup of Hockey (Non IIHF), but played for Lithuania just a few months later in the World Championships. In the case of players from Ukraine they had a choice, I am sure these Russian clubs influenced them to play for Russia but at the end of the day they were free to make their decision.



Also guys like Tverdovsky, Vishnevskiy are solid KHL defenders from Ukraine. Ukraine doesn't have any problems getting kids interested and playing hockey as evidenced by the number of players who come from there. They lack professional clubs and elite level development in their own country to keep kids with their program. Getting a professional club in the KHL could turn Ukraineís program around in a few short years in my opinion.

I agree, HC Budivelnyk will be great for Ukraine's development of hockey. IMO the KHL should expand operations to Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland and maybe even Japan in the next 5-10 years. Eliminate some of the Moscow based teams and expand the league to help develop more talent from non-traditional and failing hockey markets. I think this would be great for hockey as a whole and may even help with International teams. Poland and Ukraine have both been fairly strong at one point and could be again if the KHL expanded farther outside of Russia.

Alessandro Seren Rosso 01-02-2011 07:16 AM

Lol, who to play for Lithuania and Poland? I like the concept, but both nations don't have players to play in the KHL.

smitty10 01-02-2011 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso (Post 29921385)
Lol, who to play for Lithuania and Poland? I like the concept, but both nations don't have players to play in the KHL.

At first you'd need to surround a few of their "top" native players with quality foreign nationals (Canadians, Americans, Russians, Swedes, etc.) and in time they would have players that would develop into KHLers. Maybe Zubrus comes back for the Lithuanian team in a couple years to help too. It would take some time, but neither market is incapable of producing at least a few KHL calibre players at this time. There must be at least a couple guys from each country that could play bottom 6 minutes in the KHL.

This is really the only way that I think hockey can grow in these markets. It would be nice to see them produce some good KHL calibre players and maybe even a couple NHLers too. Historically Poland has been a solid hockey producing nation, but in recent years they have really lagged behind in development. They could definately return to their previous level though if they implemented a new development program.

finchster 01-05-2011 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29928849)
At first you'd need to surround a few of their "top" native players with quality foreign nationals (Canadians, Americans, Russians, Swedes, etc.) and in time they would have players that would develop into KHLers. Maybe Zubrus comes back for the Lithuanian team in a couple years to help too. It would take some time, but neither market is incapable of producing at least a few KHL calibre players at this time. There must be at least a couple guys from each country that could play bottom 6 minutes in the KHL.

This is really the only way that I think hockey can grow in these markets. It would be nice to see them produce some good KHL calibre players and maybe even a couple NHLers too. Historically Poland has been a solid hockey producing nation, but in recent years they have really lagged behind in development. They could definately return to their previous level though if they implemented a new development program.

As for Poland and Lithuania, I think perhaps an MHL team would make more sense for these nations. It would probably be a good first step for Ukraine as well

Sokil 01-05-2011 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29885314)
It would be nice for Ukraine, but seriously they need more guys than just Gaiduchenko. They need Fedotenko and Ponikarovsky to come and play as well as Alexei Mikhnov, Zherdev, Razin, Babchuk, etc. They could actually be on par with teams like Belarus and Latvia if these guys played, but until they do Ukraine will be in D1. I remember hearing something about Zherdev and Babchuk considering playing for Ukraine, which would be nice. Any truth to that?

if they make Budivelnyk next year, or buy out the Sokil Kyiv team/naming rights then it could be a possibility to see these guys come home

it may be a post-NHL destination for guys like Ponikarovsky/Fedotenko, and Babchuk/Zherdev if/when they leave the NHL again

the guys who have defected, if they sign and play in Kiev in the KHL for 2 years they could be eligible to switch back (right?)

keeping Danylo Sobchenko would have been a major coup though, he's doing great this WJC

Sokil 01-05-2011 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 29887376)
I am not clear on the rules for switching nationality but for Zherdev and Babchuk it is next to impossible to do so since they have played official competitions for Russia. Babchuk has only played in the u18’s so perhaps there is some leeway for him, but Zherdev played in the world championships so I think he has a 0% chance to play for Ukraine. It is sad because many players who choose to play for Russia end up being secondary or depth guys for the Russian team, they would be leading stars for Ukraine. Without a professional set up however, Ukraine will always lose players to Russia.

From what I have read the Ukrainian Federation’s short term plans is to get a team in the KHL, get citizenship for some players and get those players to bolster the Ukrainian National team in the short term. Long term with a professional set up there isn’t much for Ukraine to do, while most players on the Ukrainian National team now were all born in the 1970’s, if you look at players who were born in just in Kiev, there is a steady stream of good players from that city yearly. I think a KHL team with a good youth set up could turn Ukraine around in 5 years

Pure fantasy, but if you were to get all players born in Ukraine I believe Ukraine would be better than Latvia


true

but look at the U18 numbers, Ukraine got totally destroyed this year, and by non-hockey nations like Japan and Britain

not a good sign of things to come...

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 29990482)
As for Poland and Lithuania, I think perhaps an MHL team would make more sense for these nations. It would probably be a good first step for Ukraine as well

yeah

it would be cool to have MHL stars like Max Kvitchenko playing in Kiev, or guys like Zemchenko/Sobchenko as well

Sokil 01-05-2011 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 29928849)
Maybe Zubrus comes back for the Lithuanian team in a couple years to help too.

just a fun fact, but Zubrus nearly played for team Ukraine at one point, since he played in Ukraine from 1989-1995

he entertained the idea of playing for Ukraine, but ultimately decided his home country needed him

finchster 01-05-2011 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 29994381)
it would be cool to have MHL stars like Max Kvitchenko playing in Kiev, or guys like Zemchenko/Sobchenko as well

Not only that if there was elite youth developement in Ukraine means there is less of a chance players defect, that would be more important IMO

Sokil 01-05-2011 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 29995897)
Not only that if there was elite youth developement in Ukraine means there is less of a chance players defect, that would be more important IMO

yeah, right now the 2 roads to playing at a higher level are going from amateur straight to semi-pro with Sokil, or defecting to the MHL

have an MHL option that doesn't force players to obtain Russian passports (what a crooked business that is) and all of a sudden those U18 and U20 teams don't look quit as pathetic

kacz 01-06-2011 05:31 PM

It starts with a KHL team in Kyiv, then anything can happen. Development, attention, it would all be good for Ukrainian hockey.

As mentioned previously the national team is filled with players 30 and up who were once good to enough to hang around in the World Championships, but that is not longer the case.

yunost 01-19-2011 03:00 AM

Alot of what you people say is true but you should realize that not all players born in Kiev are Ukrainians. You should know that after the break up of the Soviet Union there were alot of Russians in other states left and vice-versa. I personally know someone in that situation.

Many of these 'Ukrainians' consider themselves Russians and are proud to play for team Russia.
Furthermore, many of these people live in Russia from a very young age, and finished the entire youth school of a Russian hockey club. Why would such a person all of the sudden go to play in/for Ukraine.

I dont want to start an argument, as legitimately there also are Ukranians who leave purely for career purposes. I dont think this is a vast majority and strongly disagree with the way you negatively talk about 'poaching' and such.

Sokil 01-19-2011 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yunost (Post 30309471)
Alot of what you people say is true but you should realize that not all players born in Kiev are Ukrainians. You should know that after the break up of the Soviet Union there were alot of Russians in other states left and vice-versa. I personally know someone in that situation.

Many of these 'Ukrainians' consider themselves Russians and are proud to play for team Russia.
Furthermore, many of these people live in Russia from a very young age, and finished the entire youth school of a Russian hockey club. Why would such a person all of the sudden go to play in/for Ukraine.

I dont want to start an argument, as legitimately there also are Ukranians who leave purely for career purposes. I dont think this is a vast majority and strongly disagree with the way you negatively talk about 'poaching' and such.

who are you referring to? it seems a vague argument on your part

Rarely are there cases of ethnic Russians being born in Kiev, never playing hockey in Ukraine, and moving to Russia for reasons other than hockey career advancement. I can't even think of an example.

finchster 01-19-2011 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yunost (Post 30309471)
Alot of what you people say is true but you should realize that not all players born in Kiev are Ukrainians. You should know that after the break up of the Soviet Union there were alot of Russians in other states left and vice-versa. I personally know someone in that situation.

Many of these 'Ukrainians' consider themselves Russians and are proud to play for team Russia.
Furthermore, many of these people live in Russia from a very young age, and finished the entire youth school of a Russian hockey club. Why would such a person all of the sudden go to play in/for Ukraine.

I dont want to start an argument, as legitimately there also are Ukranians who leave purely for career purposes. I dont think this is a vast majority and strongly disagree with the way you negatively talk about 'poaching' and such.

Players will still defect however, take the example of Kazakhstan; Nabokov switched to Russia because he is an ethnic Russian (he did however have a difficult time switching). Then you have Nik Antropov, an ethnic Russian who plays for Kazakhstan. He developed at Torpedo Ust-Kamenogorsk and still plays for their national team. Plenty of ethnic Russians play for Kazakhstan and some that don’t. If you look at some of the bigger name players that don’t; Perezhogin, Vorobiev, and Khudobin, they all developed and played youth hockey in Russia.

The point is Ukraine has about a 0% chance to keep any elite players be it ethnic Russians or Ukrainians without a professional set up, professional opportunities and elite youth development. If you can develop elite players in your own nation 90% of the time they will play for that nation.

EDIT: I just noticed the Sokol Kiev site is dead/down hockey really is in trouble ;) haha

EDIT2: Quick question, has there ever been a professional player playing at a high level from West Ukraine? I can't think of one off the top of my head

Sokil 01-19-2011 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 30309823)
EDIT2: Quick question, has there ever been a professional player playing at a high level from West Ukraine? I can't think of one off the top of my head

Never. Closest is Peter Bonda, who was born in Lutsk, but he's a Slovakian anchor baby if you will (though I've seen it argued that he's Rusyn, ipso facto Ukrainian; but he never played in Ukraine so the point is moot)

yunost 01-19-2011 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 30309812)
who are you referring to? it seems a vague argument on your part

Rarely are there cases of ethnic Russians being born in Kiev, never playing hockey in Ukraine, and moving to Russia for reasons other than hockey career advancement. I can't even think of an example.

Im not familiar with Ukrainian hockey, and am not referring to anyone in specific. Just pointing out the fact that its not like Russia steals them away and forces them to convert, as it almost sounds like in some of your posts.

Im sure that alot of ethnic Russians that start out playing in Kiev, just as they do in the US and Sweden...
Also there are plenty of ethnic Russians that moved back to Russia after the breakup of the SU, for reasons completely unrelated to hockey.

And either way, for example if a kid moves to Canada at an early age, gets a passport, lives like a Canadian, and gets a chance to play for the national team, wouldnt that make sense? Or in your case he should refuse and go back to his country of origin just because he was born there?
The case of Ukrainians in Russia is not much different.

yunost 01-19-2011 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 30309823)
Players will still defect however, take the example of Kazakhstan; Nabokov switched to Russia because he is an ethnic Russian (he did however have a difficult time switching). Then you have Nik Antropov, an ethnic Russian who plays for Kazakhstan. He developed at Torpedo Ust-Kamenogorsk and still plays for their national team. Plenty of ethnic Russians play for Kazakhstan and some that donít. If you look at some of the bigger name players that donít; Perezhogin, Vorobiev, and Khudobin, they all developed and played youth hockey in Russia.

The point is Ukraine has about a 0% chance to keep any elite players be it ethnic Russians or Ukrainians without a professional set up, professional opportunities and elite youth development. If you can develop elite players in your own nation 90% of the time they will play for that nation.


I completely agree

finchster 01-19-2011 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yunost (Post 30313051)
I completely agree

I think what you will see are ethnic Russians with a strong ethnic identification to Russia move back to play youth hockey for a chance to get their citizenship, play for Russia, and live in Russia in the future. Ethnic Russians who do not feel so strongly or have personal or economic reasons to stay in Ukraine will play for Ukraine.

Many Ukrainian born players end up developing in smaller Russian clubs, I guess the rational is smaller clubs need to search for talent and big clubs have talent that wants to play for them. Sometimes quality of life might count too. I have been to Ukraine but not to Russia, I imagine that living in Kiev is better than living in Yaroslavl or Elektrostal (I personally donít know).


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