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-   -   Proposal: Columbus - Ottawa (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=865808)

Pyke* 01-16-2011 08:08 PM

Columbus - Ottawa
 
EDIT: Note, I posted a little later why I think Columbus might be interested in dealing Rick Nash. I also realize that you may feel this is an under evaluation of his worth, that may be the case, I don't know. He's certainly an elite winger, I just wonder if maybe Columbus thinks to themselves, "We haven't seen any improvement in the standings in the time Rick Nash is here. Maybe we should trade him and see about having players grow together on this team". Maybe that's terrible thinking. I don't know.

:sens

Rick Nash


:cbj

Rundblad
Regin or Foligno
Roster Player (not named Erik Karlsson or Jason Spezza)
2011 1st Round Pick (appears to be Top 10)

-=-=-

Columbus continues to not win with Rick Nash. I am a huge Rundblad fan (he probably is the best of our "elite 3" defense prospects (Rundblad/Weircioch/Cowen), so I hate to give up the leading scoring defenseman in the SEL, but Rick Nash is an elite forward and thus, an elite price must be paid. I feel like this deal might make Columbus better in the long-term, and it would give us Nash + Spezza, which might be a nice combination.

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 08:16 PM

I can understand why Ottawa does this. Please explain why Columbus does?

SixthSens 01-16-2011 08:18 PM

Why would Columbus want to trade their captain and someone who's one year into a long-term extension?

Regina Pat 01-16-2011 08:20 PM

Uhhhhh...

Pyke* 01-16-2011 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktown Sens Fan 19 (Post 30257961)
Why would Columbus want to trade their captain and someone who's one year into a long-term extension?

Columbus has not won with Rick Nash. They've not even managed to get into the playoffs with any frequency. They sit in 13th in the West.

I don't know Rick Nash is the answer. Maybe they can get a better package (and, maybe I'm under valueing a guy with 22 goals and 17 assists), but I feel like Columbus might wish to try to re-roll and see if they can get something to work.

They've been trying to build around Rick Nash, and it's not working. I believe that's because building around a franchise winger as a rule, doesn't work. That's my personal philosophy though. CBJ fans feel free to disagree.

I'm not proposing giving him up for nothing...

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 08:27 PM

Columbus only gives up Nash in a trade where they receive a real #1 C AND #1 D. Not only that, they Would need to be young. Think Spezza plus Karlsson plus.

Pyke* 01-16-2011 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek (Post 30258314)
Columbus only gives up Nash in a trade where they receive a real #1 C AND #1 D. Not only that, they Would need to be young. Think Spezza plus Karlsson plus.

That's absurd.

I wouldn't deal Karlsson for Nash straight up, because in a cap world, that deal makes no sense at all. It's the same variant on the "Karlsson for Parise" idea in the NJ/Ottawa thread.

Further, Spezza is older than Nash, and arguably on the same "tier" of players. Although Ottawa has never won with Spezza, we have made it to the playoffs multiple times and cup finals, which is a lot more than CBJ has done with Rick Nash.

Finally, Rundblad is a potential #1 defenseman. I'm not throwing him in for the sake of it, I'm including him because I think he's an elite asset and it would be part of the package to land an elite player.

SixthSens 01-16-2011 08:35 PM

Columbus, if they even consider trading Nash (which I doubt they would), will ask for Spezza or Karlsson +. Sens fans are going to bulk at that, and that'll be it.

Pyke* 01-16-2011 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktown Sens Fan 19 (Post 30258525)
Columbus, if they even consider trading Nash (which I doubt they would), will ask for Spezza or Karlsson +. Sens fans are going to bulk at that, and that'll be it.

Columbus, or Columbus fans?

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

I feel like Murray could call up Columbus and offer Rundblad, the 1st this year, and some other pieces and make a deal happen.

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30258409)
That's absurd.

I wouldn't deal Karlsson for Nash straight up, because in a cap world, that deal makes no sense at all. It's the same variant on the "Karlsson for Parise" idea in the NJ/Ottawa thread.

Further, Spezza is older than Nash, and arguably on the same "tier" of players. Although Ottawa has never won with Spezza, we have made it to the playoffs multiple times and cup finals, which is a lot more than CBJ has done with Rick Nash.

Finally, Rundblad is a potential #1 defenseman. I'm not throwing him in for the sake of it, I'm including him because I think he's an elite asset and it would be part of the package to land an elite player.

You may just love Rundblad. He has potential. Hes not an elite asset as a prospect. An elite prospect is a Hall or a Seguin
Nash is a top 10 winger and a true franchise player. You don't get Nash for just potential and a run of the mill roster player. And no they aren't on the same tier.

Additionally, your trade makes no sense. Columbus, like Ottawa has trouble scoring. Your offer cripples Columbus.

Mayor Bee 01-16-2011 08:52 PM

General rule: take whatever it would take to pry a particular player loose if he were signed as an RFA. Then start substituting.

Nash would be in the highest echelon, which is four first-rounders (and also meaning that I really miss the five first-rounders for the sake of this discussion).

For the original proposal, let's take a look:
Nash
FOR
Rundblad
Regin or Foligno
Roster Player (not named Erik Karlsson or Jason Spezza)
2011 1st Round Pick (appears to be Top 10)

2011...that's one first-rounder. Regin is on an ELC but has shown extremely sporadic flashes of doing anything, and has done not much this year. Foligno hasn't improved much since his rookie year. Yeah, they're 24 and 22, but neither one would crack the top two lines in Columbus. There isn't much value to either one of those guys as it currently stands. There also aren't many roster players who would fit into the parameters of what Columbus is trying to put together, and the two best ones are either well on in years (Gonchar) or probably untouchable (Karlsson). Either way, a combination of "one of Regin or Foligno" and "a roster player" doesn't come close to much of anything....you'd be looking at something like a 2rd- and 5th-rounder there, and that's a stretch. So that leaves Rundblad, who would not fetch two first-rounders without having actually not only made the jump but also hit the ground running.

So basically, we're looking at the value equivalent of a first-rounder, let's say a 2nd and 5th, and David Rundblad for Rick Nash. I don't really need to point out exactly how unbalanced that would be.

biturbo19 01-16-2011 08:59 PM

There are much bigger problems than Nash which keep that Jackets team from contending. And in a market like that...do you really think they would survive without that elite franchise player in Nash, without someone of equal star power coming back?

Not to mention that the proposed trade doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Columbus 'hockey-wise' either.

Pyke* 01-16-2011 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor Bee (Post 30259061)
General rule: take whatever it would take to pry a particular player loose if he were signed as an RFA. Then start substituting.

Nash would be in the highest echelon, which is four first-rounders (and also meaning that I really miss the five first-rounders for the sake of this discussion).

For the original proposal, let's take a look:
Nash
FOR
Rundblad
Regin or Foligno
Roster Player (not named Erik Karlsson or Jason Spezza)
2011 1st Round Pick (appears to be Top 10)

2011...that's one first-rounder. Regin is on an ELC but has shown extremely sporadic flashes of doing anything, and has done not much this year. Foligno hasn't improved much since his rookie year. Yeah, they're 24 and 22, but neither one would crack the top two lines in Columbus. There isn't much value to either one of those guys as it currently stands. There also aren't many roster players who would fit into the parameters of what Columbus is trying to put together, and the two best ones are either well on in years (Gonchar) or probably untouchable (Karlsson). Either way, a combination of "one of Regin or Foligno" and "a roster player" doesn't come close to much of anything....you'd be looking at something like a 2rd- and 5th-rounder there, and that's a stretch. So that leaves Rundblad, who would not fetch two first-rounders without having actually not only made the jump but also hit the ground running.

So basically, we're looking at the value equivalent of a first-rounder, let's say a 2nd and 5th, and David Rundblad for Rick Nash. I don't really need to point out exactly how unbalanced that would be.

Rundblad, arguably, is worth more than a 1st. He was worth a mid-round 1st to Ottawa LAST year, and his value has gone up more.
Ottawa's first this year is Top 10 minimum, so that's also a consideration.

I'm not sure if I accept your premise that Regin or Foligno (not first round draft picks) are nowhere near first round picks; I mean, would you rather a mid round first draft pick or Regin? I don't know. Regin is ahead on the development curve, but obviously he may not be the home run you could potentially get. Foligno is a former first round pick himself.

I don't think the value is THAT far from the four first RFA comparison.

CBJBrassard16 01-16-2011 09:11 PM

If you want Nash, your going to have to part with Karlsson. And we are going to have to take back a good forward, and at least a 3rd.

You don't want Nash anymore

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30258694)
Columbus, or Columbus fans?

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

I feel like Murray could call up Columbus and offer Rundblad, the 1st this year, and some other pieces and make a deal happen.

You are getting answers from Columbus fans. Here's a suggestion: if you want to make an offer, it has to be one where both sides come away with what they need to improve. Your offer does not improve Columbus. This team needs to win now, and cannot afford to hope that Rundblad, and Regin or Foligno develop into what you think they will. Frankly, you have an old roster, so when you take Spezza and Karlsson off the table, it leaves a few prospects and some grinders.

Even though I am a Columbus fan, I actually pay attention to Ottawa, read your paper online and listen to Team1200. You know darn well the Regin experiment on a top line is a massive failure. He's a 3rd line player. Foligno is a run of the mill player and a winger. Columbus isn't looking for wings. CENTERS and offensive defensemen.

I understand you would love to see Nash and Spezza together. They have looked good together at the World Championships.

How do you make an offer for Nash that IMPROVES Columbus right now AND for the long term. Remember, in this situation, you are the "GM" who said, I want Nash. Now the Columbus fans as "GM" want a deal that makes their team better.

Come back with that.

Doug19 01-16-2011 09:38 PM

The homerism in this thread is obvious.

Timeless Winter 01-16-2011 09:56 PM

Karlsson ++

I've seen better Nash proposals from Leafs fans.

Pyke* 01-16-2011 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek (Post 30259783)
You are getting answers from Columbus fans. Here's a suggestion: if you want to make an offer, it has to be one where both sides come away with what they need to improve. Your offer does not improve Columbus. This team needs to win now, and cannot afford to hope that Rundblad, and Regin or Foligno develop into what you think they will. Frankly, you have an old roster, so when you take Spezza and Karlsson off the table, it leaves a few prospects and some grinders.

Even though I am a Columbus fan, I actually pay attention to Ottawa, read your paper online and listen to Team1200. You know darn well the Regin experiment on a top line is a massive failure. He's a 3rd line player. Foligno is a run of the mill player and a winger. Columbus isn't looking for wings. CENTERS and offensive defensemen.

I understand you would love to see Nash and Spezza together. They have looked good together at the World Championships.

How do you make an offer for Nash that IMPROVES Columbus right now AND for the long term. Remember, in this situation, you are the "GM" who said, I want Nash. Now the Columbus fans as "GM" want a deal that makes their team better.

Come back with that.

Columbus has to "win now" as a team in 13th?

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30260508)
Columbus has to "win now" as a team in 13th?

Yes, Columbus is not blowing up the team. They are 6 points out of the playoffs right now. If Howson throws in the towel, he'll lose his job.

I can tell you what the Sens need, if you want to make an offer, you should actually bother to find out what your trade partner needs.

Pyke* 01-16-2011 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek (Post 30260535)
Yes, Columbus is not blowing up the team. They are 6 points out of the playoffs right now. If Howson throws in the towel, he'll lose his job.

I can tell you what the Sens need, if you want to make an offer, you should actually bother to find out what your trade partner needs.

Columbus is not going to win this year with the roster they have. They could be 6 points out or 60 points out, they'll still end up 11th-14th in the West... the same place they will every year, with Rick Nash.

Gagnefan924 01-16-2011 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30257641)
EDIT: Note, I posted a little later why I think Columbus might be interested in dealing Rick Nash. I also realize that you may feel this is an under evaluation of his worth, that may be the case, I don't know. He's certainly an elite winger, I just wonder if maybe Columbus thinks to themselves, "We haven't seen any improvement in the standings in the time Rick Nash is here. Maybe we should trade him and see about having players grow together on this team". Maybe that's terrible thinking. I don't know.

:sens

Rick Nash


:cbj

Rundblad
Regin or Foligno
Roster Player (not named Erik Karlsson or Jason Spezza)
2011 1st Round Pick (appears to be Top 10)

-=-=-

Columbus continues to not win with Rick Nash. I am a huge Rundblad fan (he probably is the best of our "elite 3" defense prospects (Rundblad/Weircioch/Cowen), so I hate to give up the leading scoring defenseman in the SEL, but Rick Nash is an elite forward and thus, an elite price must be paid. I feel like this deal might make Columbus better in the long-term, and it would give us Nash + Spezza, which might be a nice combination.

Rundblad, Regin, RNH, and Michalek? for Nash? Sign me up. Done.

EDIT: Before you flame this guy Jackets fans, think this to yourself, Brassard, Moore, Voracek, Filatov, Rundblad, Regin, RNH, Michalek, Russsell, Golubef, Savard, Calvert...thats a hell of a youth movement. Plus OUR 1st round pick which could be Murphy. God I wish this would happen so badly, too bad Howson will NEVER trade Nash.

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30260634)
Columbus is not going to win this year with the roster they have. They could be 6 points out or 60 points out, they'll still end up 11th-14th in the West... the same place they will every year, with Rick Nash.

Really? The same roster started out 14-6. They also started 8-1 on the road.

This roster is not a Cup contender, but clearly has enough talent to come in 6-8th in the West.

Now I don't believe this team can make the playoffs, assuming it will take 95-96 points. I can also tell you if they make a trade for futures, while sending away the face of the franchise, mobs will descend on Nationwide Arena with pitchforks (and probably assault rifles.)


Let me help you, read a little of this thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=861484

You might also want to look at this thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=860965


I can tell you, as a Personal Seat License holder,I was on a conference call with Columbus's coach Scott Arniel, GM Scott Howson and Personal Seat License holders last Thursday. It wasn't pretty. Most of the PSL holders were demanding of them what they are going to do to make the playoffs this year. I would bet if he doesn't find a way to pullk it off, he will join Murray at the unemployment office.

Timeless Winter 01-16-2011 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 (Post 30260657)
Rundblad, Regin, RNH, and Michalek? for Nash? Sign me up. Done.

EDIT: Before you flame this guy Jackets fans, think this to yourself, Brassard, Moore, Voracek, Filatov, Rundblad, Regin, RNH, Michalek, Russsell, Golubef, Savard, Calvert...thats a hell of a youth movement. Plus OUR 1st round pick which could be Murphy. God I wish this would happen so badly, too bad Howson will NEVER trade Nash.

It's alot of quantity, but I want quality, what if we miss out on RNH if Ottawa picks 6th somehow?? Regin is okay, nothing great. Rundblad will be good, but he's not Karlsson.

Gagnefan924 01-16-2011 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timeless Winter (Post 30260833)
It's alot of quantity, but I want quality, what if we miss out on RNH if Ottawa picks 6th somehow?? Regin is okay, nothing great. Rundblad will be good, but he's not Karlsson.

You definitely make a valid point but eventually I think we need to trade Nash. He really could bring back alot of talent that this team so desperately needs. This deal would be made after you know Ottawa is picking 4th or higher, not before it. The real assets are Rundblad (who is going to be an absolute stud ) and that 1st, who hopefully will be RNH who hopefully will turn into Matt Duchene v2.0. On top of that, our pick if its top 5, maybe a deal like this could happen...MAYBE. Getting two studs in this upcoming draft along with Johan plus all the others could totally revamp the franchise.

TaketheCannoli 01-16-2011 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 (Post 30260978)
You definitely make a valid point but eventually I think we need to trade Nash. He really could bring back alot of talent that this team so desperately needs. This deal would be made after you know Ottawa is picking 4th or higher, not before it. The real assets are Rundblad (who is going to be an absolute stud ) and that 1st, who hopefully will be RNH who hopefully will turn into Matt Duchene v2.0. On top of that, our pick if its top 5, maybe a deal like this could happen...MAYBE. Getting two studs in this upcoming draft along with Johan plus all the others could totally revamp the franchise.

As a Columbus poster, you know the Jackets can't afford to wait for picks to grow up. Any deals need to be for older prospects that are ready (like the Leino deal to Philly last year), or roster top 6 forwards and top pairing defenders.


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