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-   -   Proposal: Nashville - Ottawa (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=866198)

Pyke* 01-17-2011 11:55 PM

Nashville - Ottawa
 
:sens

Austin Watson (RW)
1st Round Pick 2011



:nashville

Mike Fisher (C)
Eric Gryba (D)

TrollololBoyle 01-18-2011 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30282562)
:sens

Austin Watson (RW)
1st Round Pick 2011



:nashville

Mike Fisher (C)
Eric Gryba (D)

Absolutely no from Nashville.

Pyke* 01-18-2011 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal (Post 30282801)
Absolutely no from Nashville.

Because....?

Mike Fisher is a valuable center. I love the degree to which prospects are rated on these boards. It's as though the day you turn 21, you become less valuable or something. It's not even like I proposed an elite prospect (Austin Watson projects, if he develops, to maybe be a 2nd line player).

The Fuhr* 01-18-2011 12:18 AM

That's two first round picks for Fisher... Gryba is no use since the Preds have tons of D.

I'd do something like
Mike Fisher
For
Craig Smith
2011 1st

Think that's more reasonable

Soundgarden 01-18-2011 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30282859)
Because....?

Mike Fisher is a valuable center. I love the degree to which prospects are rated on these boards. It's as though the day you turn 21, you become less valuable or something. It's not even like I proposed an elite prospect (Austin Watson projects, if he develops, to maybe be a 2nd line player).

Because Mike Fisher is a 50-60 point center, which we could always use, but I wouldn't trade two first rounders for. Would you trade one of your top prospects or your 1st this year for Marty Erat? What about David Legwand? Steve Sullivan? J.P. Dumont?

Pyke* 01-18-2011 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fuhr (Post 30282932)
That's two first round picks for Fisher... Gryba is no use since the Preds have tons of D.

I'd do something like
Mike Fisher
For
Craig Smith
2011 1st

Think that's more reasonable

It is two first round picks, but the fact that it's a first round pick (in and of itself) is not necessarily meaningful. Picks have more value when theirs a potential home run - I don't think Austin Watson is that, and a late first this year is not likely to be either. That colours the value some.

Additionally, Gryba is a different kind of defender. Nashville's top 3 defense prospects are all PMD's, so I think that is a consideration too.

SirPaste 01-18-2011 12:20 AM

Pretty high price to pay for Mike Fisher

Pyke* 01-18-2011 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundgarden (Post 30282950)
Because Mike Fisher is a 50-60 point center, which we could always use, I wouldn't trade two first rounders for. Would you trade one of your top prospects or your 1st this year for Marty Erat? What about David Legwand? Steve Sullivan? J.P. Dumont?

Our 1st this year will probably be top 5, so it's not quite the same analysis as if the 1st is 20-25th.

Additionally, while Austin Watson is a 1st rounder, so for example is Patrick Eaves or Brian Lee, or Nick Foligno. Being a 1st rounder, by itself, does not suddenly make you more valuable than otherwise.

I mean, obviously I think Watson has some value (or I wouldn't have proposed him), but I don't think the fact he was a 1st rounder alone means this is the same as saying "Mike Fisher for 2 first round picks".

Mark Stuart* 01-18-2011 12:26 AM

Awful. Wow.

Soundgarden 01-18-2011 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30282987)
Our 1st this year will probably be top 5, so it's not quite the same analysis as if the 1st is 20-25th.

Additionally, while Austin Watson is a 1st rounder, so for example is Patrick Eaves or Brian Lee, or Nick Foligno. Being a 1st rounder, by itself, does not suddenly make you more valuable than otherwise.

I mean, obviously I think Watson has some value (or I wouldn't have proposed him), but I don't think the fact he was a 1st rounder alone means this is the same as saying "Mike Fisher for 2 first round picks".

While I don't think Watson will be the next Parise or Getzlaf, He'll probably be a decent second liner which is what Fisher is right now, add in another 15-20th overall pick and I just don't think it's worth it. Poile likes to grow his own talent, and he rarely trades recently drafted 1st liners (Parent and Upshall being part of the Forsberg package) I don't see him trading both Watson and this year's 1st for Fisher.

Pyke* 01-18-2011 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyderFan1 (Post 30283078)
Awful. Wow.

I don't think it is (obviously, or I wouldn't have made the proposal). Nonetheless, I'm glad you've taken the opportunity to demonstrate your mental prowess by providing context.

It occurs to me that it takes a lot of effort to propose an idea (and some degree of sense of self to justify it), while it takes very little to type two words. While I certainly would never mean to suggest people should not contribute, I would perhaps suggest if you mean to be critical, you could at least have the courtesy to provide some context for your visceral response.

The deal was proposed along the following lines:
-Mike Fisher probably would waive his NTC to go to Nashville, due to his marital status.
-In many ways, Fisher is an easy sell in Nashville, I feel like he's the kind of lunch bucket player they like to build their team around.
-At $4.2 million, his contract is affordable for a smaller market team, and also fairly representative of the cost of acquiring a 2nd line center.
-If you're going to give up an established roster player, for futures, particularly one under contract, I feel like it's reasonable to ask for a decent return.
-Eric Gryba is a complement to the PMD's Nashville has in their system, and he very nearly made the Senators this season. He plays a hard nosed, mean game, and I believe he would do very well in Nashville.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundgarden (Post 30283125)
While I don't think Watson will be the next Parise or Getzlaf, He'll probably be a decent second liner which is what Fisher is right now, add in another 15-20th overall pick and I just don't think it's worth it. Poile likes to grow his own talent, and he rarely trades recently drafted 1st liners (Parent and Upshall being part of the Forsberg package) I don't see him trading both Watson and this year's 1st for Fisher.

So, let's say Watson - if he develops - becomes Mike Fisher. When does that work out for Nashville? I mean, at what point does a team decide they're going to try and win now? You can't always be waiting on your prospects to develop, at some point you need to make a move and go for it.

The fact that Fisher is both under contract *and* given Carrie, likely to stay in Nashville after his deal expires, are non-hockey factors that definitely shift the value. I don't think it's as crazy as some think.

Webersmashpuck 01-18-2011 12:32 AM

I would do Austin Watson + 2nd + Lombardi for salary reasons.

I don't know how Ottawa would feel about essentially taking a gamble on a cheaper Fisher or having him on LTIR for the next two years, but it would help the Preds with salary and roster space next year.

NYR Sting 01-18-2011 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundgarden (Post 30282950)
Because Mike Fisher is a 50-60 point center, which we could always use, but I wouldn't trade two first rounders for. Would you trade one of your top prospects or your 1st this year for Marty Erat? What about David Legwand? Steve Sullivan? J.P. Dumont?

In nearly a decade in the NHL, Mike Fisher has surpassed 50 points once and never hit 60. If he's your second line center, your second line isn't going to be very dangerous offensively.

Very solid two-way forward, but not a legitimate top six player offensively.

Pyke* 01-18-2011 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck (Post 30283145)
I would do Austin Watson + 2nd + Lombardi for salary reasons.

I don't know how Ottawa would feel about essentially taking a gamble on a cheaper Fisher or having him on LTIR for the next two years, but it would help the Preds with salary and roster space next year.

Is Lombardi on LTIR? I'd probably do that trade...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting36e (Post 30283215)
In nearly a decade in the NHL, Mike Fisher has surpassed 50 points once and never hit 60. If he's your second line center, your second line isn't going to be very dangerous offensively.

Very solid two-way forward, but not a legitimate top six player offensively.

Statistically, he's an above average second line center. Someone on the Senators board did a comparison last season.

Webersmashpuck 01-18-2011 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30283256)
Is Lombardi on LTIR? I'd probably do that trade...

Hes on the IR right now, but has been out since the 2nd game of the season and would be eligible for the LTIR.

Soundgarden 01-18-2011 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30283138)

So, let's say Watson - if he develops - becomes Mike Fisher. When does that work out for Nashville? I mean, at what point does a team decide they're going to try and win now? You can't always be waiting on your prospects to develop, at some point you need to make a move and go for it.

The fact that Fisher is both under contract *and* given Carrie, likely to stay in Nashville after his deal expires, are non-hockey factors that definitely shift the value. I don't think it's as crazy as some think.

We can't hoard our prospects and wait for them to develop until the end of time, but I just don't feel like Fisher would be the guy who would push us over the hump and out of the first round come playoff time.

token grinder 01-18-2011 12:50 AM

i think any time you have to sell a trade to another team, it usually means it is garbage. mike fisher is more of a grinder than anything else at this point in his career. any team giving more than a 2nd round pick for him is just plain dumb.

ISLESnPANTHERS 01-18-2011 12:56 AM

I think you spelled Jason Spezza wrong in ur proposal

worstfaceoffmanever 01-18-2011 01:00 AM

:laugh: No.

Pyke* 01-18-2011 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundgarden (Post 30283342)
We can't hoard our prospects and wait for them to develop until the end of time, but I just don't feel like Fisher would be the guy who would push us over the hump and out of the first round come playoff time.

Fair enough. I'm not sure he would get you out of the first round. I am sure he would make Nashville a better team, though, today (as opposed to later).

Quote:

Originally Posted by token grinder (Post 30283382)
i think any time you have to sell a trade to another team, it usually means it is garbage. mike fisher is more of a grinder than anything else at this point in his career. any team giving more than a 2nd round pick for him is just plain dumb.

Cool. I think you significantly over value picks. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISLESnPANTHERS (Post 30283464)
I think you spelled Jason Spezza wrong in ur proposal

This is laughable. If Spezza was on the table, the deal would be a lot more than Austin Watson and a late first....

I Will Son 01-18-2011 02:54 AM

Nooo! No More Offers With Fisher, We Dont Want Him!

Predsrule 01-18-2011 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck (Post 30283145)
I would do Austin Watson + 2nd + Lombardi for salary reasons.

I don't know how Ottawa would feel about essentially taking a gamble on a cheaper Fisher or having him on LTIR for the next two years, but it would help the Preds with salary and roster space next year.

... let the guy play at least 3 games for us b4 shipping him off... or how about not wanting to ship off a guy... or how about not wanting to trade a guy when they dont live up to your expectations lol ..
I wouldn't even do Austin Watson + 2nd for him

trentmccleary 01-18-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30282562)
Austin Watson (RW)
1st Round Pick 2011

Nobody's giving up two 1st rounders for Fisher making $4.2M.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundgarden (Post 30282950)
Because Mike Fisher is a 50-60 point center

Pace. 50-60 point paces, which he rarely hits because he misses a half a dozen to a dozen games.

_____His last 5 season full seasons: 44, 48, 47, 32, 53
His last 5 season full season paces = 53, 58, 49, 34, 55

The 32 point season was the season that Hartsburg took over and implemented one of the most amateurish breakout strategies in NHL history and passively used 1 forechecker to pressure the opposition. Everybody had a down season... as they are this season, because of different breakout problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting36e (Post 30283215)
In nearly a decade in the NHL, Mike Fisher has surpassed 50 points once and never hit 60. If he's your second line center, your second line isn't going to be very dangerous offensively.

Very solid two-way forward, but not a legitimate top six player offensively.

Season: pts rank among forwards (X), PPG rank among forwards (x)

05-06: 137, 130
06-07: 109, 102
07-08: 104, 120
08-09: 192, 215 (Hartsburg )
09-10: 77, 91

1A (1-30):
1B (31-60):
1C (61-90): X

2A (91-120): XxXxx
2B (121-150): Xx
2C (151-180):

3A (181-210): X
3B (211-240): x


Quote:

Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck (Post 30283145)
I would do Austin Watson + 2nd + Lombardi for salary reasons.

I don't know how Ottawa would feel about essentially taking a gamble on a cheaper Fisher or having him on LTIR for the next two years, but it would help the Preds with salary and roster space next year.

I doubt Lombardi is finished and assuming he's not, that's still overpayment.

With him being out so long, might be best to just leave Watson out of the equation and the deal a conditional choice of two picks based upon Lombardi playing a sustained amount of games.

Not that I actually want to deal Fisher though. But if that was the common ground you were looking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by token grinder (Post 30283382)
mike fisher is more of a grinder than anything else at this point in his career. any team giving more than a 2nd round pick for him is just plain dumb.

No, he's still a 2nd liner on a team with a broken system.

In it's first 15 years of drafting, a pretty good drafting organization like Ottawa ended up with only Fisher, Vermette and a couple of short lived depth players to show for all of their 2nd rounders. When you see an analysis like Scott Cullen's (TSN) on draft history... it's truly amazing to see how much less likely it is that you'll end up with a player as you analyze historic picks from 1 through 60.

wubwubwubwub 01-18-2011 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by token grinder (Post 30283382)
i think any time you have to sell a trade to another team, it usually means it is garbage. mike fisher is more of a grinder than anything else at this point in his career. any team giving more than a 2nd round pick for him is just plain dumb.

This post is funny because
a) he is so much farther from being a grinder than he ever has been in his career
and b) when he was a grinder he was scoring at a higher or equal pace and his value was much higher.

Watson+Lombardi and maybe a middling prospect, if anything, would be good for Fisher.

token grinder 01-18-2011 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The OttoMan (Post 30286484)
This post is funny because
a) he is so much farther from being a grinder than he ever has been in his career
and b) when he was a grinder he was scoring at a higher or equal pace and his value was much higher.

Watson+Lombardi and maybe a middling prospect, if anything, would be good for Fisher.

He is on pace for what 40 points? actually, not even that. He has 19 points through 46 games. Over 70 hits and over 50 blocks for a forward. Sounds like a grinder to me. And grossly overpaid at 4.2 million for a grinder. Nashville already has one of those with Legwand.

Last year was his career high in goals at 25. Good top 6 stuff. But before that never cracked 50 points. A top six forward should be able to crack 50 points more than once before 30. Or are Ottawa's expectations for a top six forward lower than Nashville's? (and Nashville has low expectations, look at the forwards)

So what was so funny about him being a grinder?


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