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-   -   Proposal: Proposal - J. Staal/P. Dupuis for B.Boyes and T.J. Oshie (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=867555)

Phil68 01-21-2011 01:04 PM

Proposal - J. Staal/P. Dupuis for B.Boyes and T.J. Oshie
 
I received push back in the pens forum for this, but i want a general point of view... What do you guys think of this trade?


Jordan Staal and Pascal Dupuis

For Brad Boyes, PATRIK BERGLUND or T J Oshie

bleedblue1223 01-21-2011 01:55 PM

Dupuis will not interest the Blues at all. I haven't watched a ton of Pens games, but it seems to me that Jordan Staal will be at best a 2-way center with 50 point production and maybe 60 points. Oshie and Berglund both have a higher OFFENSIVE potential then that and Oshie also plays a very good 2-way game.

Boyes>Dupuis, Blues also don't have to worry about Boyes' contract because we have plenty of cap space

Oshie/Berglund>Staal, Some people may call me crazy, but the Blues are a team for the future and they need offense, Oshie and Berglund in my opinion have a higher offensive potential than Staal.

No deal, the Blues don't even consider it.

Mark Stuart* 01-21-2011 02:07 PM

This is pretty awful for the Blues, I think. Not sure they even consider Oshie straight up for Staal, let alone adding in another downgrade.

Mike Liut 01-21-2011 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyderFan1 (Post 30363200)
This is pretty awful for the Blues, I think. Not sure they even consider Oshie straight up for Staal, let alone adding in another downgrade.



true

Pyke* 01-21-2011 02:09 PM

I know why the Pens do this, but why do the Blues? Staal is a 3rd line center. Boyes is a top 6 forward, as is Oshie.

EdwardBlake 01-21-2011 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30363238)
I know why the Pens do this, but why do the Blues? Staal is a 3rd line center. Boyes is a top 6 forward, as is Oshie.

Staal is only a 3rd line center on the Pens because of Crosby and Malkin. If he were on another team that wasn't so deep down the middle he would be in the top six at center.

But regardless. I do not see this deal working. Value is close to right, but just do not see the Blue's pulling the trigger on it.

Pyke* 01-21-2011 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fictionzero (Post 30363273)
Staal is only a 3rd line center on the Pens because of Crosby and Malkin. If he were on another team that wasn't so deep down the middle he would be in the top six at center.

But regardless. I do not see this deal working. Value is close to right, but just do not see the Blue's pulling the trigger on it.

I don't think he is. I realize Penguins fans do, and that's fine. I'm not meaning to start a flame war. My personal opinion is Staal is sort of like Mike Fisher, a solid 2B/3A center who can chip in offensively from time to time. The problem is, you really want that 2B/3A guy as your 3rd center (i.e.: Behind Crosby/Malkin... or if it was Colorado, behind Duchene and Stastny) so that your depth is better than the opposing team. For example, if I was Vancouver, I might like Staal to line up behind Sedin and Kesler. It gives you options.

In any event, regardless of whether you'd have him as the 3rd or 2nd, he is not enough to make up for the Blues losing 2 good Top 6 players for him and Depuis.

StarsFan74 01-21-2011 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fictionzero (Post 30363273)
Staal is only a 3rd line center on the Pens because of Crosby and Malkin. If he were on another team that wasn't so deep down the middle he would be in the top six at center.

Correct! However, I do think that down the road, either Staal or Malkin (I'd say Malkin, because of higher quality and quantity of returns) would need to be dealt to finally provide Crosby with the wingers he truly deserves. That decision would obviously be based on how Penguins do in the playoffs over the next 2 seasons.

Mark Stuart* 01-21-2011 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30363327)
I don't think he is. I realize Penguins fans do, and that's fine. I'm not meaning to start a flame war. My personal opinion is Staal is sort of like Mike Fisher, a solid 2B/3A center who can chip in offensively from time to time. The problem is, you really want that 2B/3A guy as your 3rd center (i.e.: Behind Crosby/Malkin... or if it was Colorado, behind Duchene and Stastny) so that your depth is better than the opposing team. For example, if I was Vancouver, I might like Staal to line up behind Sedin and Kesler. It gives you options.

In any event, regardless of whether you'd have him as the 3rd or 2nd, he is not enough to make up for the Blues losing 2 good Top 6 players for him and Depuis.

I tend to agree with you. Staal is in the mold of a Mike Fisher/Patrice Bergeron type player, I think. Can move up to the top 6 if necessary, but his role is best served on the 3rd line (and will end up getting 18 or so minutes a game)... In that sense, I agree, he's not a top-6er, but I don't think he'll ever be on a team where he's not one of the top 6 forwards in ice time.

Pyke* 01-21-2011 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyderFan1 (Post 30363415)
I tend to agree with you. Staal is in the mold of a Mike Fisher/Patrice Bergeron type player, I think. Can move up to the top 6 if necessary, but his role is best served on the 3rd line (and will end up getting 18 or so minutes a game)... In that sense, I agree, he's not a top-6er, but I don't think he'll ever be on a team where he's not one of the top 6 forwards in ice time.

The problem with that kind of player is, in general, unless they have other attributes, it's really hard to fit with them against teams that have "elite" 2nd line centers (the Penguins, Canucks, Avs, and a few others)... exceptions apply of course. For example, Bergeron's defensive game would make him an awesome fit with someone like Kesler if he plays wing... or same with Fisher on a line with someone like Lucic for physical contact. It's amusing that that type of player is the "best fit" when they're a winger on the 2nd line as opposed to their natural C position.

Just A Bit Outside 01-21-2011 02:25 PM

I think Staal is severely under-rated because he plays behind Crosby and Malkin.

Look at what he's done since he's come back from injury; putting up big points in Crosby's absence. He's also just 22.

I've always felt Oshie is overrated. He's a Colby Armstrong type. Can pot 15-20 goals, maybe 50-60pts and plays physical. However, he is not a 1st line guy but can adequate fill in a 2nd line role.

If I were Pitt, I wouldn't trade Staal for Oshie straight-up but Berglund and Oshie is too expensive from St. Louis point of view.

bleedblue1223 01-21-2011 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds81 (Post 30363516)
I've always felt Oshie is overrated. He's a Colby Armstrong type. Can pot 15-20 goals, maybe 50-60pts and plays physical. However, he is not a 1st line guy but can adequate fill in a 2nd line role.

If I were Pitt, I wouldn't trade Staal for Oshie straight-up but Berglund and Oshie is too expensive from St. Louis point of view.

Do you watch Oshie play? The Blues won't trade Oshie for Staal straight up. They won't even consider that.

Bluester 01-21-2011 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 30363674)
Do you watch Oshie play? The Blues won't trade Oshie for Staal straight up. They won't even consider that.

Correct. We are a different team when he is on the ice.

The Grouch 01-21-2011 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds81 (Post 30363516)
I think Staal is severely under-rated because he plays behind Crosby and Malkin.

Look at what he's done since he's come back from injury; putting up big points in Crosby's absence. He's also just 22.

I've always felt Oshie is overrated. He's a Colby Armstrong type. Can pot 15-20 goals, maybe 50-60pts and plays physical. However, he is not a 1st line guy but can adequate fill in a 2nd line role.

If I were Pitt, I wouldn't trade Staal for Oshie straight-up but Berglund and Oshie is too expensive from St. Louis point of view.


Thinking Staal is underrated and Oshie is overrated doesn't scream 'take my post seriously'. I will say that your assertion that Oshie is a "Colby Armstrong type" is inaccurate. I think a good comparable for Oshie is Mike Richards. They play very similar games.

wej20 01-21-2011 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyke (Post 30363238)
I know why the Pens do this, but why do the Blues? Staal is a 3rd line center. Boyes is a top 6 forward, as is Oshie.

How can Oshie be a top 6 forward but Staal isn't? Staal's younger, scored 20+ goals in 3 out of 4 full season and 40+ points in 3 out of 4 full seasons. Oshie's a fan favourite and very marketable so the Blues wont move him (as was pointed out by lots of people when this was posted on the Pens board). Boyes is a top 6 guy but it's a bit worrying that he's on pace for another sub 20 goal season.

Street Hawk 01-21-2011 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fictionzero (Post 30363273)
Staal is only a 3rd line center on the Pens because of Crosby and Malkin. If he were on another team that wasn't so deep down the middle he would be in the top six at center.

But regardless. I do not see this deal working. Value is close to right, but just do not see the Blue's pulling the trigger on it.

Straight up Staal for Oshie is very fair for both sides. Basically the same age, 1 draft apart. Oshie automatically becomes the Pens best Winger.

Allows Staal to move into the #2 center spot for the Blues.

Both players are good defensively. It comes down to which player you believe has the greater potential. Staal has produced 20 goals 3 times in his career, one of those was a 30 goal season. Very good on the PK. Can he produce in the #2 center role into the 60 plus point category? For Oshie, he has all of the tools, but he has yet to put it all together. If you view that it's just a matter of time before he does, then you would rate Oshie a bit ahead of Staal. If you are of the mindset that he can only put some of it, but not the whole package together, then you don't rate him as high. Just a matter of which player you believe in more.

Berglund is not better than Staal. Don't think many outside of St. Louis would take Berglund over Staal.

BlueBeard 01-21-2011 03:24 PM

If the Blues need another two way center why wouldn't they just move Oshie to center?

Now maybe there could be a deal done around Boyes. A change of scenery might not be a bad thing for him.

Trottier 01-21-2011 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil68 (Post 30362196)
I received push back in the pens forum for this, but i want a general point of view... What do you guys think of this trade?

I think it returns a nice youngster and a one-dimensional finisher to Pittsburgh...in exchange for a a key component of the team's proven advantange over competition (physical strength and proven, diversified depth down the middle) and an inexpensive and underappreciated support player who fits in well on his team (both on and off the ice, as evidenced by the recent HBO series; team dynamics matter, in real life).

Hence, I think while the "talent exchange" on paper may be close or even unattractive to some Blues fans, it is certainly lacking rationale from Pittsburgh's actual perspective and objectives (winning the Cup this season).

BlueBeard 01-21-2011 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trottier (Post 30364613)
I think it returns a nice youngster and a one-dimensional finisher to Pittsburgh...in exchange for a a key component of the team's proven advantange over competition (physical strength and proven, diversified depth down the middle) and an inexpensive and underappreciated support player who fits in well on his team (both on and off the ice, as evidenced by the recent HBO series; team dynamics matter, in real life).

Hence, I think while the "talent exchange" on paper may be close or even unattractive to some Blues fans, it is certainly lacking rationale from Pittsburgh's actual perspective and objectives (winning the Cup this season).

Boyes is not a one dimensional winger any longer. Now you're not going to hear him in talks for the Selke any time soon but he has rounded out his game considerably in his time here.

Trottier 01-21-2011 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueBeard (Post 30364893)
Boyes is not a one dimensional winger any longer. Now you're not going to hear him in talks for the Selke any time soon but he has rounded out his game considerably in his time here.

If you are suggesting that Brad Boyes ability to impact a game (on either side of the puck) outside the offensive blueline has increased, that's news to me. But I'll defer to your standing as a Blues fan.

My bottom line assessment stands, however.

Deal makes no sense for the Pens, if one wants to take an objective nanosecond to consider the context for this hypothetical deal - namely, where the team is and what their goals are.

CCBC 01-21-2011 04:11 PM

I would take Oshie over Staal, but I wouldn't take Berglund over Staal. Oshie is just too marketable and valuable to the Blues to move, but I think Staal is basically what we hope Berglund could be, so I would definitely make that move, even though it seems quite lateral for both teams.

And even though Boyes is struggling, he's still on pace for about 45-50 points, and yes, his two way game has increased. He's not so soft, and he's pretty decent on the forecheck.

SirPaste 01-21-2011 04:14 PM

I would love to get Staal on the Blues, but there is just no way that we would trade Oshie, he is the face of our franchise and people here are obsessed with him, he isnt going anywhere

Tra La La 01-21-2011 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyderFan1 (Post 30363200)
This is pretty awful for the Blues, I think. Not sure they even consider Oshie straight up for Staal, let alone adding in another downgrade.


IMO Oshie is better the Staal.

Phil68 01-21-2011 04:59 PM

Figured Staal Oshie would Cancel out or So many feel like Jordan Staal is or could be gold. Therefore Value of Staal is a little higher the Oshie, you add in Boyes who makes around the money as Jordan, And Dupuis's salary goes towards Oshie's. The way i see it is, great on both end.... Remember the Blues would still have Backes Perron, Steen, and Tarasenko just to name a few!!

Celtic Note 01-21-2011 05:03 PM

Counter offer:

Staal and Hanowski

for

Boyes, McRae and a 3rd-5th.

Blues need a top 6 center ( IMO Staal is one) and they need LW prospect depth.

Pens need a scoring winger and Boyes will score more than Staal if paired with Crosby and Malkin, they also get a winger/center prospect who can play soon. The pick is to balance out.

This trade keep the Pens and Blues at the same payroll level, which is important to both teams.

Flame away.


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