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-   -   Center Controversy (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=878584)

Jame 02-16-2011 09:53 AM

Center Controversy
 
I know it's way, way, way too early. Roy is the man. He'll be back next year. but what if the team continues to play so well in his half year absence? Lot of what ifs, but I like the idea of team that plays as a team, rather then a top center that plays like an individual...

So far Roy's injury has been addition by subtraction.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=878512

:p:

Zip15 02-16-2011 10:00 AM

You know my take: keep Roy, get a second top-6 center, and go from there. If you want to keep Roy away from Vanek, fine--though we know that won't last because it'll be impossible to keep them apart with the high volume of line juggling Ruff does. Build two top-6 lines around Vanek-Pominville and Roy-Stafford. If we could somehow acquire Weiss with Luke Adam, I'd love to see a top-9 like this:

Vanek-Weiss-Pominville
Ennis-Roy-Stafford
Hecht-xxxxx-Kassian

And even though Jochen is much better at LW than C, he produces at a much better clip when he's a center. He has 14 pts in 21 games since Roy's injury. And he certainly is good enough defensively to handle the center position's duties. I wouldn't be upset if they kept him at center next season, so long as he's the 3C and not the 2C

Corto 02-16-2011 10:02 AM

Well, it helps that many of the guys are woken up, Myers is back to something like his best, Stafford's scoring like a machine, Vanek is playing probably the best two-way hockey of his career, Hecht and Pommer are much more present on the scoresheet, etc.

Sorry, Jame, I don't buy it.

At the time Roy went down, along with Sekera, Monty and Leopold, he was one of the rare guys who would've gotten a passable grade at that point.

Duddy 02-16-2011 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zip15 (Post 30968344)
You know my take: keep Roy, get a second top-6 center, and go from there. If you want to keep Roy away from Vanek, fine--though we know that won't last because it'll be impossible to keep them apart with the high volume of line juggling Ruff does. Build two top-6 lines around Vanek-Pominville and Roy-Stafford. If we could somehow acquire Weiss with Luke Adam, I'd love to see a top-9 like this:

Vanek-Weiss-Pominville
Ennis-Roy-Stafford
Hecht-xxxxx-Kassian

And even though Jochen is much better at LW than C, he produces at a much better clip when he's a center. He has 14 pts in 21 games since Roy's injury. And he certainly is good enough defensively to handle the center position's duties. I wouldn't be upset if they kept him at center next season, so long as he's the 3C and not the 2C

Yeah, that's the way to go. Get another top 6 center.

sabresfan123* 02-16-2011 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jame (Post 30968211)
I know it's way, way, way too early. Roy is the man. He'll be back next year. but what if the team continues to play so well in his half year absence? Lot of what ifs, but I like the idea of team that plays as a team, rather then a top center that plays like an individual...

So far Roy's injury has been addition by subtraction.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=878512

:p:

If you looked into it you would realize alot of teams preform better when a player goes down. Crosby went down for a month I think it was two years ago and Malkin took over and the team had a great record....trade crosby? :amazed:

slip 02-16-2011 10:07 AM

You want addition by subtraction? Look no further than Craig Rivet.

We may be winning now without Roy -- good teams find ways to win without their best players in the lineup, and right now we're a good team -- but let's not pretend we don't miss/need him.

barnell 02-16-2011 10:11 AM

Judging by two of the top threads right now this team is getting pretty controversial. :laugh:

skibum 02-16-2011 10:12 AM

You could maybe put some of the blame for Vanek's early struggles on Roy, but he certainly carried his own weight and then some; also it's not his fault that the other three lines could do nothing of value most nights.

Who knows, maybe Roy's steady scoring made other guys feel less responsible for generating offense. I wouldn't call his loss addition by subtraction, exactly; more like a wake-up call for the other guys. Fortunately, they have stepped up.

I still think he's a great player with a solid place on this team, and a very nice contract as well.

Zip15 02-16-2011 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slip (Post 30968468)
You want addition by subtraction? Look no further than Craig Rivet.

We may be winning now without Roy -- good teams find ways to win without their best players in the lineup, and right now we're a good team -- but let's not pretend we don't miss/need him.

I think it's a confluence of things that have led to the better performance:

1) Rivet being put down on a permanent basis.
2) Butler playing only sporadically.
3) Weber's emergence.
4) Morrisonn adjusting to his teammates and ridding himself of his groin injury that he had early in the season.
5) No Lalime starts, whatsoever, since Roy went down, which means more Miller starts, which means more wins.
6) Guys like Pominville and Vanek playing the way they should've been since the start of the season.

And it could go on. I think it's too simple to just attribute the better record to Roy being out. The only place I think one can make a legitimate argument that Roy's absence is a plus would be on the PP. It has looked more fluid since they started running the PP through different players. But that's a reason to put Roy on the 2nd PP unit, not get rid of him.

jBuds 02-16-2011 10:21 AM

Lack of center depth has been a perpetual issue since the departure of the co-captains.

Your proposed solution? Get rid of the only top-6 center we have.

Don't like it at all.

You can sit there and think of 47 different reasons why the Sabres are successful since Roy went out, but none of them are actually tangible and warrant getting rid of him.

- Roy's injury did not create Stafford's hot streak
- Roy's injury did not remove Rivet from the lineup
- Roy's injury did not shift the team to a more rugged style
- Roy's injury did not wake up Pommer
- Roy's injury did not allow Weber to grow into a legitimate top-6 ASSET

etc.

Zip15 02-16-2011 10:25 AM

Also, Ennis looking more like last year's version has spurred them. He has 14 pts in the last 12 games, and the team is 8-3-1 in that span.

Jame 02-16-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slip (Post 30968468)
You want addition by subtraction? Look no further than Craig Rivet.

We may be winning now without Roy -- good teams find ways to win without their best players in the lineup, and right now we're a good team -- but let's not pretend we don't miss/need him.

i think we are a good team/better team SPECIFICALLY because Roy is not in the lineup

we don't miss him. 20 games is a good sample. We are better offensively at ES, and better on the PP.

It's the definition of "addition by subtraction". and its not just the scoresheet and Wins... you can see it on the ice.

Roy's individualism is gone

Jame 02-16-2011 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zip15 (Post 30968668)
I think it's a confluence of things that have led to the better performance:

1) Rivet being put down on a permanent basis.
2) Butler playing only sporadically.
3) Weber's emergence.
4) Morrisonn adjusting to his teammates and ridding himself of his groin injury that he had early in the season.
5) No Lalime starts, whatsoever, since Roy went down, which means more Miller starts, which means more wins.
6) Guys like Pominville and Vanek playing the way they should've been since the start of the season.

And it could go on. I think it's too simple to just attribute the better record to Roy being out. The only place I think one can make a legitimate argument that Roy's absence is a plus would be on the PP. It has looked more fluid since they started running the PP through different players. But that's a reason to put Roy on the 2nd PP unit, not get rid of him.

in reality, i dont think we should get rid of Roy. I think his role should be reduced, ice time reduced, etc.

obviously we have no depth to part with Roy...

Roy for Vermette and Brassard? :sarcasm:

Ana Crusis 02-16-2011 10:45 AM

if we could get a good return for Roy i say YES!!

HogtownSabresfan 02-16-2011 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zip15 (Post 30968344)
And he certainly is good enough defensively to handle the center position's duties.2C

Really?

Zip15 02-16-2011 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HogtownSabresfan (Post 30969384)
Really?

Is Hecht good enough defensively to handle the defensive duties incumbent upon a center, and a 3C, at that? Yes. Yes, he is.

Havok89 02-16-2011 10:55 AM

You know it is possible the team has simply just played better because they needed to without Roy. This team would be better with Roy in the lineup. They just need a #2 C.

Jame 02-16-2011 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havok89 (Post 30969543)
You know it is possible the team has simply just played better because they needed to without Roy. This team would be better with Roy in the lineup. They just need a #2 C.

based on what I see on the ice.. no. the team is simply better without Roy... because Roy excels at being the individual on the ice. that's what makes him productive. Unfortunately it hurts the team overall, at ES and PP.

Addition (better team overall) by subtraction (removal of talented individual)

BowieSabresFan 02-16-2011 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jame (Post 30969669)
based on what I see on the ice.. no. the team is simply better without Roy... because Roy excels at being the individual on the ice. that's what makes him productive. Unfortunately it hurts the team overall, at ES and PP.

Addition (better team overall) by subtraction (removal of talented individual)

Jame, you are certainly entitled to that opinion. Personally though, I find there are too many other possibilities to make it a viable one.

Heck, one could also credit the good play since Roy went down to Ruff's coaching talents :D

Jame 02-16-2011 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan (Post 30969908)
Jame, you are certainly entitled to that opinion. Personally though, I find there are too many other possibilities to make it a viable one.

Heck, one could also credit the good play since Roy went down to Ruff's coaching talents :D

definitely just my opinion.

If VRS was still together, they would be nowhere near their current production, and the Sabres would be at the bottom of the East

joshjull 02-16-2011 11:17 AM

The one thing Roy's absense did do is put Vanek/Pommer together for the first time. Its led to both of them playing their best hockey. With Hecht providing very good two way play at center for thse two.


Its a line we never would have seen if Roy was still healthy. Necessity being the mother of invention and all that.

Jame 02-16-2011 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshjull (Post 30970038)
The one thing Roy's absense did do is put Vanek/Pommer together for the first time. Its led to both of them playing their best hockey. With Hecht providing very good two way play at center for thse two.


Its a line we never would have seen if Roy was still healthy.

very true

Timbo Slice 02-16-2011 11:22 AM

Keep Roy, find a #2 Center, and keep Vanek away from Roy.

slip 02-16-2011 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshjull (Post 30970038)
The one thing Roy's absense did do is put Vanek/Pommer together for the first time. Its led to both of them playing their best hockey. With Hecht providing very good two way play at center for thse two.


Its a line we never would have seen if Roy was still healthy. Necessity being the mother of invention and all that.

But those guys didn't even play together last night, and we still managed to pull out one of the most impressive comebacks of the season. I haven't seen any line etched in stone since Roy went down.

Hecht playing center? That's something we might not have seen with a healthy Roy. And while he's been solid over that time, it's reasonable to think his game would have improved (more like reverted to the mean) playing at center or on the wing.

Jame is taking what seems like an accidental correlation (Roy's injury, Buffalo's improved play) and trying to ascribe some kind of direct causal relationship. Call me when we make the playoffs and actutally win a round without Roy. Until then, it's all fun philosophical speculation, a fine way to kill some time.

goooal 02-16-2011 11:30 AM

I think Roy is still a valuable player to this team, however his absence has led me to believe that we'd be better off keeping him away from Vanek. I say we make Roy and Vanek the pivots of their own lines. We know Roy can produce, if he's doing it at the cost of other top players production when he's playing with them then just put him on a line where there's no one he can really steal offense from. He can keep producing as he always has while not robbing anyone else of chances.

As far as what to do on the PP with him, well...I'm not as certain.


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